TPE 350s

[VTPreston_Tez]

In reality they have 11 minutes at both ends if the train isn't delayed due to 5 minutes padding being in the timetable.

The unit arriving from Hull at Manchester has always formed the next service back to Hull when ever I've seen it. I don't know so much about the Hull end but I'm sure the last time I caught a Manchester train at Hull it was formed using a unit that arrived a few minutes earlier.
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TPE serving Wigan is not a certainty. While the Northern Hub plans mention more fast services between Wigan and Manchester, Network Rail and DfT have stated that the Wigan diversion for the Scottish services is permanent so more spaced is reserved for long distance travellers instead of commuters. Replacing Bolton commuters with Wigan commuters wouldn't seem to achieve that benefit.

Yep. At night, the service is diverted to run non-stop through Wigan, at least AFAIK. I've rode it twice at least.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The 350's will be most welcome, they are badly needed as the overcrowding problems needed sorting. I like the 185's, but they simply aren't long enough.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Yep. At night, the service is diverted to run non-stop through Wigan, at least AFAIK. I've rode it twice at least.

Yes, there are a couple M-F evening that run via Wigan, can't remember times exactly, and I think one calls too. If I'm not mistaken the first BPN-MIA train also runs via Westhoughton.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Yes, there are a couple M-F evening that run via Wigan, can't remember times exactly, and I think one calls too. If I'm not mistaken the first BPN-MIA train also runs via Westhoughton.

There seem to be 6 late/early TP trains via Wigan (from Open Train Times, M-F):

0001 MIA-BPN via Bolton, not calling at Wigan
0400 MIA-BPN via Bolton
0546 MAN-BPN via Walkden
2200 MIA-CNF via Bolton

0333 BPN-MIA via Bolton, not calling at Wigan
2008 BIF-MIA via Walkden

 

[WatcherZero]

The 350's stopping in Wigan is a certainty, TPE have already briefed TfGM on their timetable changes. These are also a firm part of the delivery of plans for the Wigan-Manchester 30 minute expresses. Theres also no suggestion of losing a Virgin Scotland service.

What has been suggested however is Wigan losing one of its Virgin Euston-Scotland services and gaining a Birmingham-Scotland one instead so that the Euston-Scotland service could drop stops and reduce travel times, their looking to make a near non-stop London-Scotland service with only a couple of intermediary stations.

 

[Class377/5]

Rail has an story on the TPE 350/4 will in service from May 2014 with TPE's "full plan for the 185 released from the Scottish route would be announced shortly".

 

[ukrob]

Don't we already know it?

Introduce Liverpool to Newcastle and strengthen some other services.

 

[tbtc]

Don't we already know it?

Introduce Liverpool to Newcastle and strengthen some other services.

The units "saved" (by Chat Moss electrification) are nothing like enough for an hourly Liverpool - Newcastle service - you need to wait until there are wires through Bolton and Huddersfield before the *real* savings happen

 

[WatcherZero]

Well its about quarter of an hour less than the same journey as the Airport-Scotland service (3:15 vs 3:30) so they could do bi-hourly from freed up stock, extend the Liverpool-leeds service and you have an hourly.

Doesnt have to be a clockface timetable, lose 10 minutes each hour and its still as good as hourly.

 

[D6975]

Well its about quarter of an hour less than the same journey as the Airport-Scotland service (3:15 vs 3:30) so they could do bi-hourly from freed up stock, extend the Liverpool-leeds service and you have an hourly.

Doesnt have to be a clockface timetable, lose 10 minutes each hour and its still as good as hourly.

I think you'll find a 70 min frequency totally impractical due to the pathing problems that it would create, in particular over the Huddersfield-Leeds section which is pretty intensively operated these days.

 

[tbtc]

Well its about quarter of an hour less than the same journey as the Airport-Scotland service (3:15 vs 3:30) so they could do bi-hourly from freed up stock, extend the Liverpool-leeds service and you have an hourly.

Doesnt have to be a clockface timetable, lose 10 minutes each hour and its still as good as hourly.

...but when the 350s arrive there will still need to be 185s running on the Manchester Airport - Piccadilly - Bolton - Preston part of the Scottish route (you can't leave gaps in the busy service through Bolton), so there aren't *that* many 185s spared (maybe just enough to allow the 170s to double up?).

Once the wiring through Bolton is completed (and services to Blackpool can be run by EMUs) then you start to see reasonable numbers of 185s freed up, but there certainly wouldn't be enough for a Newcastle - Liverpool service until then (and anyway, by then we'll be seeing the TPE North electrification starting which will start to free up serious numbers of 185s and allow through EMUs from Liverpool to Newcastle)

 

[WatcherZero]

It doesnt look like that will be happening, the 185's will go straight onto the Chat Moss from December timetable change then gradually replaced by the May timetable as the 350's are delivered. There will be no replacement service on the Bolton line for at least a year but in the longer term Northern will be looking at doing a Blackburn via Bolton service to plug the gap. This is from mid February.

2 Outline TPE plans
2.1 TPE will outline their plans at the meeting. These include moving the Airport-Scotland services from the route via Bolton to the route via Wigan North Western. This will allow a cascade of diesel rolling stock to the Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds route – adding capacity on that route. We understand that TPE plan to provide that extra capacity through an additional hourly service as well as some longer trains. More details will be presented at the meeting.

2.2 The clear benefits the TPE proposals include:
* a new fast hourly service from Manchester and the Airport to Wigan;
* a more frequent service, with more capacity, to Edinburgh and Glasgow;
* a reduction in the number of passengers travelling from Preston and points north on the very overcrowded Bolton corridor leading to the potential for some relief of overcrowding on that route. Bolton is the second busiest station in Greater Manchester (excluding city centre stations);
* additional capacity on the Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds corridors; and
* a new hourly fast service from Liverpool to Newcastle via Victoria and Leeds.

€2.3 The concerns Officers will wish to explore with Northern and TPE on the Bolton and Wigan corridors include the following:
* the extent to which capacity lost on the Bolton corridor after diversion of the services via Wigan does not exacerbate overcrowding on that corridor;
* the extent to which any stations on the Bolton-Preston corridor might see reduced frequencies;
* given that the first train on the Bolton Corridor is a TPE train whether the times of first and last trains on this corridor will be maintained after the full set of services (Northern and TPE) is defined; and
* the provision the rail industry will make for better information at the two Wigan stations given the fact that the Manchester service will be split between the two stations.

 

[John55]

The draft May 2014 TPE timetables are on the NR website at;

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse....03.01 FKT New TAC closing date 29 March 2012.

However there seems to be a bad link for the scottish services but no doubt that will be fixed shortly.

 

[northwichcat]

It doesnt look like that will be happening, the 185's will go straight onto the Chat Moss from December timetable change then gradually replaced by the May timetable as the 350's are delivered. There will be no replacement service on the Bolton line for at least a year but in the longer term Northern will be looking at doing a Blackburn via Bolton service to plug the gap. This is from mid February.

The document you're quoting from seems to be points of discussion for a TfGM meeting - it states the situation and potential issues not yet being fully understood properly. It mentions the date of change being after the current Northern franchise ends meaning it is difficult to say exactly what changes to local services will occur and also mentions that the incremental changes will occur numerous times between December 13 and December 16 due to electrification projects. Did you attend the meeting and know what was discussed?

 

[WatcherZero]

No I wasnt there, the Northern Blackburn service is something that has been suggested by NR/Northern in the past to take up the slack and of course while TPE like Virgin is introducing the electric stock for the most part the electrification changes will take place after their franchise ends so their doing forward planning for a successor. Their successor is free to recast and of course we dont know whats happening to Northern/TPE franchises.

 

[northwichcat]

The draft May 2014 TPE timetables are on the NR website at;

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse....03.01 FKT New TAC closing date 29 March 2012.

However there seems to be a bad link for the scottish services but no doubt that will be fixed shortly.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...dacted fx model_passenger_contract_051011.pdf

Page 106 onwards gives an idea of what services to expect via Bolton. It looks like Barrow will practically lose it's TPE service (reduced to 3tpd) so presumably the new Northern franchise will have extra local services between Lancaster and Barrow. However, the Windermere shuttle remains!

It looks like the Scottish 350 service will serve more stations than the current 185 service.

For Glasgow services (6tpd) the intermediate calls will be:

Heald Green, Manchester Piccadilly,
Manchester Oxford Road, Wigan North
Western, Preston, Lancaster,
Oxenholme Lake District, Penrith,
Carlisle, Lockerbie, Carstairs,
Motherwell

For Edinburgh services (8tpd) the intermediate calls will be:

Heald Green, Manchester Piccadilly,
Manchester Oxford Road, Wigan North
Western, Preston, Lancaster,
Oxenholme Lake District, Penrith,
Carlisle, Lockerbie, Haymarket

I've started a new thread for the changes to North TPE here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=61426

 

[swt_passenger]

The draft May 2014 TPE timetables are on the NR website at;

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse....03.01 FKT New TAC closing date 29 March 2012.

So that immediately shows that Newcastle - Liverpool hourly is the existing service diverted, not an additional service. Which is of course a completely different scenario to that proposed in the earlier posts above.

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I've started a new thread for the changes to North TPE here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=61426

Seems like a good idea...

 

[John55]

So that immediately shows that Newcastle - Liverpool hourly is the existing service diverted, not an additional service. Which is of course a completely different scenario to that proposed in the earlier posts above.

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Seems like a good idea...

Look at the first post in the new thread where the details of the change from 4 trains/hour Leeds - Manchester to 5 trains per hour is clarified,

 

[swt_passenger]

Look at the first post in the new thread where the details of the change from 4 trains/hour Leeds - Manchester to 5 trains per hour is clarified,

I saw that - it's explicit in the timetables on the NR website.

What I was meaning was that some earlier posts in this thread seemed to be suggesting Newcastle would have an extra hourly service.

 

[WatcherZero]

While the bulk of the route is existing it is a new service for the extremitys. Newcastle-Manchester Airport now Newcastle-Liverpool is a new service for Liverpool and a new direct for Newcastle with the airport service being replaced by a new Airport-York service so not losing the north east link.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The draft May 2014 TPE timetables are on the NR website at;

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse....03.01 FKT New TAC closing date 29 March 2012.

However there seems to be a bad link for the scottish services but no doubt that will be fixed shortly.

Link now works (also direct link below).

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...123 may 14 timetable - scotland and nw sx.pdf

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

Adobe Reader keeps crashing on me because it's absolutely useless. Are there any Excel documents or Word Documents I can download?

 

[northwichcat]

Adobe Reader keeps crashing on me because it's absolutely useless. Are there any Excel documents or Word Documents I can download?

Download Google Chrome and use the pdf reader built in to that which is a lot less processor intensive.

 

[WatcherZero]

Adobe Reader keeps crashing on me because it's absolutely useless. Are there any Excel documents or Word Documents I can download?

Also use the independent reader rather than the browser plugin, its a lot more reliable. I.e. save the pdf to disk and then open it rather than opening it directly. Most crashes tend to come from trying to scroll a file thats still downloading.

 

[northwichcat]

In terms of morning peak arrivals in to Manchester it's almost identical timings but the 08:24 arrival will be a 4 car 350 from Glasgow via Wigan instead of a doubled up 185 portion working via Bolton. However, the 08:56 arrival will remain as a doubled up 185 portion via Bolton.

The evening peak services will see the current 2 Scotland/Barrow portion workings via Bolton become 350 workings via Wigan but an additional 17:11 Piccadilly-Barrow via Bolton service will run and the 17:46 departure northbound will be a Blackpool/Barrow portion working.

 

[WatcherZero]

I wonder if their nicking the path the Northern high morning/evening peak service uses for Wigan NW via Chat Moss. It was always an orphan service that existed to help with the people going to work/returning from Manchester at the busiest time.

 

[northwichcat]

I wonder if their nicking the path the Northern high morning/evening peak service uses for Wigan NW via Chat Moss. It was always an orphan service that existed to help with the people going to work/returning from Manchester at the busiest time.

It may not be a bad thing overall if they are. Carriages are going to have to come from somewhere to form new services on the Bolton corridor and there won't be loads of 319s free as soon as Chat Moss is electrified, like the previous government envisaged.

 

[Whistler40145]

Instead of TPE running separate Glasgow & Edinburgh services from Manchester Airport, why not run an hourly combined service formed of 2x350/4 to either Carlisle or Carstairs & split the units with one each going forward to Glasgow & Edinburgh?


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[Eagle]

Instead of TPE running separate Glasgow & Edinburgh services from Manchester Airport, why not run an hourly combined service formed of 2x350/4 to either Carlisle or Carstairs & split the units with one each going forward to Glasgow & Edinburgh?

Because that would need more 350s than have been ordered :P

Also, eight cars an hour from Manchester to Carlisle? North of Preston, that's overkill. (Bearing in mind it's currently three cars not quite every hour.)

 

[Whistler40145]

OK, I now understand that TPE would require more units to do this & most likely 8 cars would be overkill.


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