TPE franchise awarded to First

[Class 170101]

But the AT300s aren't replacing the Class 350s, they are replacing the 185s on TP North services to Newcastle not 350s on services to Scotland via WCML

Thats NOT my point!

Where an AT300 will probably have around 320 standard class seats and probably something like 24ish first class seats (maybe a little more maybe a little less). Compared with 154 standard class, 12 tip up and 15 first class seats on a single 185. So a five car AT300 is probably going to be bringing basically the same capacity as a six-car 185.

Not a bad uplift really when so many services are 3-car 185s!

A pair Class 350s has 460 seats. Intercity trains of a similiar length have less seats. I am assuming a similar number of seats for Class 350 replacement units to the AT300 which for a five car at 26 metres per carriage is 315 seats adding one more carriage which is the maximum length able to fit in Manchester Airport station makes 378 seats. So I think the replacement of 350s in 8 car formation will have less seats than now BUT the new trains are likely to have more seats than a Class 350 in four car formation.

 

[quantinghome]

The latest Rail magazine claims there will be 16 additional TPE trains from Glasgow and Edinburgh via Preston from December 2019 which is what I based my previous post on. However, this doesn't actually seem to be reflected in the franchise spec.

 

[Haydn1971]

Thats NOT my point! .

En enlighten us, because clearly you are speaking in Klingon haha

A pair Class 350s has 460 seats. Intercity trains of a similiar length have less seats. I am assuming a similar number of seats for Class 350 replacement units to the AT300 which for a five car at 26 metres per carriage is 315 seats adding one more carriage which is the maximum length able to fit in Manchester Airport station makes 378 seats. So I think the replacement of 350s in 8 car formation will have less seats than now BUT the new trains are likely to have more seats than a Class 350 in four car formation.

AT300s aren't replacing 350s ! Plus, doubled up 350s are fairly rare, most services I see going through Oxford Road are single 350s

 

[quantinghome]

Rail magazine also claims the transpennine franchise allows more carriages to be ordered. Guess we'll see if that actually happens...

 

[ainsworth74]

Thats NOT my point!



A pair Class 350s has 460 seats. Intercity trains of a similiar length have less seats. I am assuming a similar number of seats for Class 350 replacement units to the AT300 which for a five car at 26 metres per carriage is 315 seats adding one more carriage which is the maximum length able to fit in Manchester Airport station makes 378 seats. So I think the replacement of 350s in 8 car formation will have less seats than now BUT the new trains are likely to have more seats than a Class 350 in four car formation.

Then what is you point? AT300s (at least those ordered so far) have nothing to do with 350 replacement.

But, for sake of argument, lets assume that 6-car AT300s were ordered the seating capacity would likely be around 408 seats in standard and around 24 in first for a total of 432 seats. So yes slightly less than an eight-car 350 but considerably more than a four-car 350 (which, of course, form a majority of services).

But again, seeing as we don't know what is going to be ordered, I'm not sure why we're comparing AT300s with 350s?

 

[Haydn1971]

Isn't this like the doubled up 185 vs an AT300 debate a few months back - in that a five car AT300 seats less than a doubled up 185, but then most 185s aren't doubled up, and more AT300s will run per hour anyways - thus massively increasing capacity

 

[ainsworth74]

Isn't this like the doubled up 185 vs an AT300 debate a few months back - in that a five car AT300 seats less than a doubled up 185, but then most 185s aren't doubled up, and more AT300s will run per hour anyways - thus massively increasing capacity

It would seem like it! But seeing as we don't actually know what TPEs plans are, rolling stock wise, we're sort of shooting in the dark a bit

 

[Haydn1971]

It would seem like it! But seeing as we don't actually know what TPEs plans are, rolling stock wise, we're sort of shooting in the dark a bit

Well, five car EMUs have been suggested, as has 125mph, but then not all 44 trains "have" to be 125mph units

Five car units will be better than four car units

 

[hibtastic]

AT300s aren't replacing 350s ! Plus, doubled up 350s are fairly rare, most services I see going through Oxford Road are single 350s

I think what he is trying to say is that it is unlikely that whatever is ordered will provide the same capacity as a doubled up 350! There are a few very busy services to Edinburgh particularly on Fridays which are operated by 2x350s. I believe that is why the 185 runs to Glasgow on Fridays?

A single 5-car unit (if that is what is ordered for the WCML services is unlikely to match the current capacity on the busiest services.

 

[TheKnightWho]

It would seem like it! But seeing as we don't actually know what TPEs plans are, rolling stock wise, we're sort of shooting in the dark a bit

They're also ordering 12 of whatever 5-car train works the Scottish services, so there's clearly a big increase in capacity anyway.

 

[ainsworth74]

What's the station throat like at Man Airport? Could a unit overhang? After all SDO is a thing

 

[Haydn1971]

A single 5-car unit (if that is what is ordered for the WCML services is unlikely to match the current capacity on the busiest services.

I believe Oxford Road is being set up for 8 car platforms, there's nothing stopping TPE using 2x 350s or perhaps better, pricing passengers onto less busy services. SDO using 2x AT300s could be possible with appropriate signal changes or even missing out Oxford Road and other stations that aren't long enough for 2x AT300s - plenty of space to extend at Manchester Airport and Piccadilly looks long enough physically to accommodate 260m of train before the extra platforms are introduced

 

[NotATrainspott]

The platforms at Oxford Road and Piccadilly are to be 208m long and on loops which will make SDO completely impractical. Any trains longer than the platform would block the second platform in that direction as well, which would destroy capacity on this busy rail corridor. It can be safely assumed that there will be no SDO on this section, especially when it would be needed at Piccadilly and that is the major station on the line. SDO might be fine at small village halts but it makes no sense at major stations where large numbers of passengers will be boarding and alighting.

 

[Haydn1971]

The platforms at Oxford Road and Piccadilly are to be 208m long and on loops which will make SDO completely impractical.

Is that specified somewhere, I've only ever seen reference to 8 carriage length. Also, doubled up five carriage trains would be rare, perhaps one or two in each direction on a Friday - albeit that could change with passenger growth.

Any trains longer than the platform would block the second platform in that direction as well, which would destroy capacity on this busy rail corridor. It can be safely assumed that there will be no SDO on this section, especially when it would be needed at Piccadilly and that is the major station on the line.

Again, we are talking a limited number of trains a week, so not that unreasonable.

SDO might be fine at small village halts but it makes no sense at major stations where large numbers of passengers will be boarding and alighting.

Well given the news of 26m carriages becoming the norm on TPE, one would hope changes are made in the detailed design stages of Oxford Road and Piccadilly to accommodate 10x 26m in at least one platform per direction - if not, heads should roll somewhere

 

[NotATrainspott]

Is that specified somewhere, I've only ever seen reference to 8 carriage length. Also, doubled up five carriage trains would be rare, perhaps one or two in each direction on a Friday - albeit that could change with passenger growth.



Again, we are talking a limited number of trains a week, so not that unreasonable.




Well given the news of 26m carriages becoming the norm on TPE, one would hope changes are made in the detailed design stages of Oxford Road and Piccadilly to accommodate 10x 26m in at least one platform per direction - if not, heads should roll somewhere

Why should 26m carriages mean that 265m long platforms are necessary? 265m long platforms are available on the majority of the traditional InterCity network, so 11-car Pendolinos and 10-car IEPs/AT300s make perfect sense. The same isn't true on TP North and there's no real case to spend many tens or hundreds of millions of pounds to extend platforms across the network to support trains with far more capacity than it is ever likely that those platforms will need to support. All four of the main stations in Manchester - Piccadilly, Victoria, Oxford Road and the Airport, are limited to ~200m trains so unless you want to spend lots of money upgrading all of them simultaneously, there's not a great amount of point in doing it.

If you were going to run 10 car TP trains up to Scotland, it would be best splitting them at Preston so that they can serve a much wider area of the North West of England. If one entire half-train were filled with passengers going from Scotland to Manchester, the other half-train would be for all the passengers going from Scotland to non-Manchester destinations, and it may as well continue on to Liverpool. 330 seats for exclusive use by end-to-end Manchester passengers alone is more than enough capacity.

 

[ainsworth74]

The platforms at Oxford Road and Piccadilly are to be 208m long and on loops which will make SDO completely impractical.

Wait? 13/14 at Piccadilly can take an 11-car Pendolino right? Are they proposing to shorten the platforms to make them 208m long? Right now it they must be about 265m to fit an 11-car?

 

[Class 170101]

Then what is you point? AT300s (at least those ordered so far) have nothing to do with 350 replacement.

But, for sake of argument, lets assume that 6-car AT300s were ordered the seating capacity would likely be around 408 seats in standard and around 24 in first for a total of 432 seats. So yes slightly less than an eight-car 350 but considerably more than a four-car 350 (which, of course, form a majority of services).

But again, seeing as we don't know what is going to be ordered, I'm not sure why we're comparing AT300s with 350s?

I was trying to compare a 26m vehicle with the 350 and the nearest I could come up with was the AT300. Additionally I was also trying to compare Intercity Trains with 350s.

I was NOT suggesting the 350s would be replaced with AT300s.

 

[WatcherZero]

Well at the moment the four car 350's with 230 seats aren't cutting it and before that the 340 seats provided by 2x185 were occasionally failing to meet demand in High Peak.

I don't see them operating 2x5x26 formations though but lengthening the five car EMU they order to meet demand.

Piccadilly 13/14 can accommodate 11 car Pendolino currently but the extra platforms built wont be as long due to being straighter and less Banana shaped.

 

[Greybeard33]

I was trying to compare a 26m vehicle with the 350 and the nearest I could come up with was the AT300. Additionally I was also trying to compare Intercity Trains with 350s.

I was NOT suggesting the 350s would be replaced with AT300s.

Why do you think the new EMUs will have 26m carriages and an intercity seating layout? Only IEPs/AT300s have 26m carriages so far, but about all we know so far about the new 5-car EMUs is that they are unlikely to be made by Hitachi (otherwise the order would have been announced with the AT300 bi-mode one).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The latest Rail magazine claims there will be 16 additional TPE trains from Glasgow and Edinburgh via Preston from December 2019 which is what I based my previous post on. However, this doesn't actually seem to be reflected in the franchise spec.

It doesn't actually say "via Preston", they are Manchester-Scotland via both routes.
That number is pretty much just the current WCML services, plus the new Liverpool-Glasgows (3tpd), and then the 12-odd through services to Edinburgh via Newcastle.
The ECML services won't go to Glasgow, either.

I don't get the need for 4tph between Newcastle and Edinburgh (2xVTEC, XC and TP).

 

[TBSchenker]

What's the planned stopping pattern of the TPE ECML services north of Newcastle? Maybe they want to take out some intermediate stops from the VTEC services to speed their end to end journey times up?

 

[pemma]

They're also ordering 12 of whatever 5-car train works the Scottish services, so there's clearly a big increase in capacity anyway.

The 2 extra units are for the new Liverpool-Glasgow services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well at the moment the four car 350's with 230 seats aren't cutting it and before that the 340 seats provided by 2x185 were occasionally failing to meet demand in High Peak.

TPE don't serve the High Peak

Currently all services go via Wigan and Wigan to Manchester passengers are allowed to use all but 1 service. The changes will see Northern running Manchester to Cumbria via Wigan services instead, with TPE services running via Bolton with Bolton-Manchester passengers not being permitted to use the Scottish services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It doesn't actually say "via Preston", they are Manchester-Scotland via both routes.
That number is pretty just the current WCML services, plus the new Liverpool-Glasgows (3tpd), and then the 12-odd through services to Edinburgh via Newcastle.
The ECML services won't go to Glasgow, either.

Yes the North TPE to Edinburgh services are due to start in December 2019 so that'll be what RAIL is referring to. (The Liverpool to Glasgow services are due to start in 2018 and the 350/4 lease ends in the autumn of 2018.) It should be noted RAIL tried to rush through a special section on the new Northern and TPE franchises so RAIL's feature is missing the unknowns at the time of press.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What's the planned stopping pattern of the TPE ECML services north of Newcastle? Maybe they want to take out some intermediate stops from the VTEC services to speed their end to end journey times up?

The standard calling pattern will be Liverpool, Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Morpeth and Edinburgh. (I know you only asked about one section but I thought I'd give all the stops in case other people reading the thread are interested.)

 

[sprinterguy]

What's the station throat like at Man Airport? Could a unit overhang? After all SDO is a thing

The signals are right at the bottom of the platform ramps. There'd be little additional length to be gained by relocating them, assuming that it would even be possible to do so, and assuming that you can't have the leading cab further forward than the signal, then train lengths are essentially limited to the 200 metre maximum of the platform lengths.

Given the number of units (12) being ordered to operate a slightly expanded service over that currently being provided by ten, I'm not sure why anybody expects to see any multiple working of units through to Manchester, anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

TPE don't serve the High Peak

Off topic, and only affecting one train per day (soon to be doubled!), but where do you regard Chinley as being located then?

 

[pemma]

Off topic, and only affecting one train per day (soon to be doubled!), but where do you regard Chinley as being located then?

In context that wasn't invalid as WatcherZero was talking about the Manchester Airport to Scotland route when he said High Peak capitalised. I don't think the 350s could get to Chinley without some help.

 

[sprinterguy]

In context that wasn't invalid as WatcherZero was talking about the Manchester Airport to Scotland route when he said High Peak capitalised. I don't think the 350s could get to Chinley without some help.

I can certainly envisage them having some problems once they get past Hazel Grove.

 

[Haydn1971]

Why should 26m carriages mean that 265m long platforms are necessary? 265m long platforms are available on the majority of the traditional InterCity network, so 11-car Pendolinos and 10-car IEPs/AT300s make perfect sense.

It doesn't, but you are doing the same as you normally do in turning discussions around to cause an argument ! I've responded to the concept of replacement of a double up 350 with a doubled up AT300 (which was suggested by another - as the AT300s aren't to the best of my knowledge replacing the 350s) - I've outlined several thoughts, some more possible than others - would be nice if you could be constructive rather than destructive with every post !

The same isn't true on TP North and there's no real case to spend many tens or hundreds of millions of pounds to extend platforms across the network to support trains with far more capacity than it is ever likely that those platforms will need to support. All four of the main stations in Manchester - Piccadilly, Victoria, Oxford Road and the Airport, are limited to ~200m trains so unless you want to spend lots of money upgrading all of them simultaneously, there's not a great amount of point in doing it.

I'd agree, and no one has suggested that - I originally suggested SDO on some platforms where space was constrained for a very limited number of trains per week, but some places, I.e Piccadilly appear to have the space, Airport would be easy to expand, Oxford Road would be difficult.

If you were going to run 10 car TP trains up to Scotland, it would be best splitting them at Preston so that they can serve a much wider area of the North West of England. If one entire half-train were filled with passengers going from Scotland to Manchester, the other half-train would be for all the passengers going from Scotland to non-Manchester destinations, and it may as well continue on to Liverpool. 330 seats for exclusive use by end-to-end Manchester passengers alone is more than enough capacity.

Well clearly it's not enough, as TPE are running 8 carriage 350s currently on some select busy services - my personal preference is to price passengers onto less busy services, but that's easier said than done
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Given the number of units (12) being ordered to operate a slightly expanded service over that currently being provided by ten, I'm not sure why anybody expects to see any multiple working of units through to Manchester, anyway.

Ah, interesting, so TPE would run 12x five carriage units, plus retain all or some of the 10x four carriage 350s ?

 

[pemma]

Ah, interesting, so TPE would run 12x five carriage units, plus retain all or some of the 10x four carriage 350s ?

No the 350s are off-lease in the Autumn of 2018 and TPE's December 2019 train plan doesn't include any 350s and only includes 29 x 185s.

 

[Class 170101]

Why do you think the new EMUs will have 26m carriages and an intercity seating layout? Only IEPs/AT300s have 26m carriages so far, but about all we know so far about the new 5-car EMUs is that they are unlikely to be made by Hitachi (otherwise the order would have been announced with the AT300 bi-mode one).

Why order a five car EMU at 20m per vehicle? They can't be doubled up even if indeed there are enough trains to do that, they don't fit at Manchester Airport in pairs and will not do so without serious infrastructure works. There are other stations where this may be a problem also.

a five car at 26m means it can only be lengthened by one vehicle to 6 cars and still fit at Manchester Airport (26*6=156m), 2x Class 350s = 160m.

As for the seating layout why order an Intercity layout for the routes that the AT300 will operate over and not for the remaining routes particularly via the WCML routes, does that not seem strange? The WCML routes are a big revenue generator after all.

 

[Haydn1971]

No the 350s are off-lease in the Autumn of 2018 and TPE's December 2019 train plan doesn't include any 350s and only includes 29 x 185s.

So looking increasing likely at the five car EMUs would be in fact 20m units to fit at Manchester on the ~208m platforms when doubled up
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why order a five car EMU at 20m per vehicle? They can't be doubled up even if indeed there are enough trains to do that, they don't fit at Manchester Airport in pairs and will not do so without serious infrastructure works.

Sprinter guy suggested unthread that 200m is possible at Manchester, Notatrainspot suggested that Oxford Road / Piccadilly will be ~208m

 

[pemma]

a five car at 26m means it can only be lengthened by one vehicle to 6 cars and still fit at Manchester Airport (26*6=156m), 2x Class 350s = 160m.

Once platforms 15/16 are operational at Piccadilly maybe it'll be possible to join/detach a portion at peak times instead of running doubled up to the Airport. It seems to be the plan for all South TPE services to be 6 cars between Piccadilly and Sheffield only so they might plan to strengthen for only part of the service on other routes as well.