TPE franchise awarded to First

[sprinterguy]

I would have thought if the options are 125mph bi-modes and 100mph diesel locos you'd want Newcastle services to get the 125mph bi-modes as there's more overheads to use and they can actually use the 125mph top speed.

Precisely, as I mentioned a few posts above.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I would have thought if the options are 125mph bi-modes and 100mph diesel locos you'd want Newcastle services to get the 125mph bi-modes as there's more overheads to use and they can actually use the 125mph top speed.

Though if 100mph paths are available and 100mph locos are available, the extra issues with 125mph stock such as no passenger accommodation in the front 1/3 of the driving trailer might create more issues than it solves.

 

[pemma]

Though if 100mph paths are available and 100mph locos are available, the extra issues with 125mph stock such as no passenger accommodation in the front 1/3 of the driving trailer might create more issues than it solves.

Although how many miles the bi-modes can do between refueling might be an issue if they are only using a very short section of overheads e.g. the Airport-Manchester section of Airport-Middlesbrough services.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Although how many miles the bi-modes can do between refueling might be an issue if they are only using a very short section of overheads e.g. the Airport-Manchester section of Airport-Middlesbrough services.

For the bi-mode 80x services this is an issue, though one which will shrink as the various bits of route are wired. For these loco hauled services even 88s would need the whole route wired before they can replace 68s as their diesel capacity, range and performance will be far lower than that of the bi-mode 80xs. If the Hitachi bi-modes are similar to the South West sets I imagine fuel capacity and performance on diesel mode won't be a problem.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

It is most likely the bi-modes will be used on the extended LIV-EDB services, which defeats the purpose of the loco and stock! Also I have to agree with not being able to run at 125 on the ECML using the loco sets, theres still much speculation surrounding the stock requirements, but as 3 new fleets have been mentioned along with the existing 185's theres a very complicated and convoluted rolling stock in plan which I am sure makes sense to someone.....

 

[pemma]

It is most likely the bi-modes will be used on the extended LIV-EDB services, which defeats the purpose of the loco and stock!

To me it sounds logical to put bi-modes on Newcastle services initially and then move them to Scarborough/Middlesbrough services once Manchester-York is wired. 100mph diesel locos can be switched for 125mph electric locos.

but as 3 new fleets have been mentioned along with the existing 185's

I thought this originated from a job description which said up to 3 different new products. We know it has to be a minimum of 2 unless TPE decide to run bi-modes on Manchester Airport/Liverpool to Scotland services.

 

[Greybeard33]

Tony Miles has posted on wnxx that it's sounding like there's been a lack of progress in talks with CAF and First could be about to go to Plan B which will see more Hitachi trains.

Also regarding Hitachi trains they offer a variety of different length cars on AT300s and offer different door positions with SDO available as an option: http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/at-300-high-speed_47.html

The Hitachi web pages you linked refer to the EMU versions of the AT300 - Class 395 mentioned but not Class 800/801. It remains to be seen if a bi-mode would be feasible with cars shorter than 26m and/or 1/3 - 2/3 doors.

As per Transpennine's franchise announcement, this group of thirteen trains is supposed to be intended for Middlesbrough and Scarborough services (The nineteen Bi-mode units so far ordered can make best use of the ECML wires and their 125mph capability on Edinburgh and Newcastle services).

Its rumoured and mentioned internally, and as kwvr45 has previously pointed out, internal job descriptions have stated 13 loco hauled rakes and 68's. However it hasnt been confirmed internally but the suggestion is the loco rakes will be used on LIV-NCL and LIV-SCA services

To me it sounds logical to put bi-modes on Newcastle services initially and then move them to Scarborough/Middlesbrough services once Manchester-York is wired. 100mph diesel locos can be switched for 125mph electric locos.

The 13 LHCS(?) sets are supposed to be delivered 2 years earlier than the 19 bi-modes. So they might be used on Newcastle and Scarborough services initially, then moved from Newcastle to Middlesbrough once the bi-modes are available in 2020.

 

[pemma]

The Hitachi web pages you linked refer to the EMU versions of the AT300 - Class 395 mentioned but not Class 800/801. It remains to be seen if a bi-mode would be feasible with cars shorter than 26m and/or 1/3 - 2/3 doors.

That's the generic AT300 page stating various options, there's more specific pages for the 800/801 IEPs: http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/-class-800801-iep_140.html and the AT300s for the West Country: http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/at300-for-the-west-of-england_156.html

The 13 LHCS(?) sets are supposed to be delivered 2 years earlier than the 19 bi-modes. So they might be used on Newcastle and Scarborough services initially, then moved from Newcastle to Middlesbrough once the bi-modes are available in 2020.

The bi-modes are supposed to be in service in 2019 according to the recent TPE press release, with none of the 44 new trains expected before Spring 2018: http://www.tpexpress.co.uk/news/201...-rail-carriages-from-uk-manufacturer-hitachi/

They did originally say one set of new trains for North TPE in time for December 2017, electric Scottish sets in 2018 and the final North TPE sets during 2019 but it looks like they've already missed a target. The Hull Trains bi-modes are due for delivery in 2020.

 

[87015]

I thought this originated from a job description which said up to 3 different new products. We know it has to be a minimum of 2 unless TPE decide to run bi-modes on Manchester Airport/Liverpool to Scotland services.

Originated? It was in the bid as the three fleets, which will make any backtracking rather interesting...

 

[pemma]

Originated? It was in the bid as the three fleets, which will make any backtracking rather interesting...

Did the bid contain one option for new stock though? Arriva were quick to announce a CAF order for Northern after they won the bidding, while Abellio were quick to announce a Hitachi order for Scotrail after they won the bidding. First, on winning TPE, said they were introducing 44 new Intercity trains each with 5 carriages and had started a tender process for those trains.

 

[Viscount702]

Are we thinking First have put in a non compliant bid.

To my mind First should have settled and be in a position to sign up to whatever stock was envisaged by their bid before putting in their bid. If their bid was successful then they should have been in a position to sign a contract or contracts shortly thereafter.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

I have a question, why are First considering new build Loco hauled stock when there will be a glut of Mk3's and Mk4's avalible in a few years? Seems a risky option for a ROSCO to finance such a deal when the next franchise after First could decide to replace the Loco hauled stock with cheaper to operate EMU's which would then be looking for a home.

 

[WatcherZero]

They are required to have costings, i.e quotes from suppliers. The actual detailed negotiations where things like liability come up can delay things. I would imagine CAF are wary of any performance related payment regime if for example their trains are less reliable than claimed.

 

[pemma]

I have a question, why are First considering new build Loco hauled stock when there will be a glut of Mk3's and Mk4's avalible in a few years?

Because they wanted to get maximum marks for quality when the franchise bids were being assessed. Stagecoach and Kelios both included using 68s hauled 442s in their bids, so First's gamble paid off and they won.

It also seems First were hopeful they could get new loco-hauled carriages in service by December 2017 which is now looking unlikely - even First are now saying new carriages in Spring 2018 opposed to Autumn 2017.

 

[Haydn1971]

Wait, why would you use a Class 68 when a Class 67 runs at 125mph, is a 68 better at getting up to speed or something I'm missing ?

 

[dgl]

Wait, why would you use a Class 68 when a Class 67 runs at 125mph, is a 68 better at getting up to speed or something I'm missing ?

IIRC due to gearing for 125mph and having less horse power the 67 accelerates very slowly when compared to the 68 (and a lot of other units) (3,200 compared to 3,800 and only geared for 100mph).
From what I've heard the performance of the 68's on the Chiltern Mainline services (6+DVT/Generator) is as good if not better than the DMU's used on the route.

 

[Bevan Price]

I have a question, why are First considering new build Loco hauled stock when there will be a glut of Mk3's and Mk4's avalible in a few years? Seems a risky option for a ROSCO to finance such a deal when the next franchise after First could decide to replace the Loco hauled stock with cheaper to operate EMU's which would then be looking for a home.

Even if the new hauled stock become "surplus" to TOCs in a few years, I think there will be a ready market to use this stock to replace some of the ageing Mk 1 & Mk. 2 stock used by charter operators.

Alternatively some of the hauled stock may find a home on Manchester to Hull or Cleethorpes services for a few years.

 

[Bungle965]

IIRC due to gearing for 125mph and having less horse power the 67 accelerates very slowly when compared to the 68 (and a lot of other units) (3,200 compared to 3,800 and only geared for 100mph).
From what I've heard the performance of the 68's on the Chiltern Mainline services (6+DVT/Generator) is as good if not better than the DMU's used on the route.

When i have used the fife circle on quite a few occasions 68+Mk2 and Class 170 have left the same time at Haymarket on green signals and the 68 has easily out accelerated the 170...... I feel im veeing slightly off topic here
Sam

 

[Class 170101]

Northern are going to be doing maintenance in-house at existing depots on the 195s and 331s, presumably at Newton Heath and Neville Hill. The key factor would be how much capacity there'll be at Newton Heath, as it'll continue to service Northern's legacy fleet alongside the new units.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
185108 on North Transpennine today, just passed Batley heading West. Looks good in the flesh!

It's located on a triangle of land bounded by the Rochdale line to the north, Metrolink to the south and a road to the rear of the site. There isn't really the opportunity for expansion in any direction.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

However, assuming that Arriva stick to Northern's established class allocations, it will also be gaining around twenty class 150 units, which partially counters the loss of forty two class 142s.

I doubt expansion of the maintenance depots will be needed.

Think about Wimbledon depot, the Class 455s have had modifications to ensure they can run more miles between depot visits. One would hope the new EMUs / DMUs will also be more reliable than the 321, 322s and Pacers that they replace.

The only issue will then become stabling and servicing (eg fuelling and tanking) space for the 15% increase in the fleet size but wasn't there a suggestion elsewhere on this board of more (disused) stabling space being restored to use between Liverpool and Huyton?

 

[Haydn1971]

IIRC due to gearing for 125mph and having less horse power the 67 accelerates very slowly when compared to the 68 (and a lot of other units) (3,200 compared to 3,800 and only geared for 100mph).

From what I've heard the performance of the 68's on the Chiltern Mainline services (6+DVT/Generator) is as good if not better than the DMU's used on the route.

Great, cheers for the clarification... So hopefully no impact on the ECML north of York

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's located on a triangle of land bounded by the Rochdale line to the north, Metrolink to the south and a road to the rear of the site. There isn't really the opportunity for expansion in any direction.

Look at the area next to the Metrolink line/Heavy Rail line to the Waste Compaction Depot where a number of stabling sidings are situated and the nearby shed buildings/offices that abut the main depot buildings. There is certainly scope to utilise that particular land area far better than at present with new depot buildings being constructed on that part of the existing site to replace any existing buildings.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Great, cheers for the clarification... So hopefully no impact on the ECML north of York

You wanna see the impact a 67 tugging a dead 225 set has on the ECML, the words pull, skin and custard spring to mind......

 

[coppercapped]

... Stagecoach and Kelios both included using 68s hauled 442s in their bids, so First's gamble paid off and they won.

I always understood that the contents of the losing bids were not made public after award of the franchise contract, so is this fact or speculation?

 

[Haydn1971]

You wanna see the impact a 67 tugging a dead 225 set has on the ECML, the words pull, skin and custard spring to mind......

Thats hardly comparable to pulling five carriages

 

[Philip]

Do we know whether 185s will continue to be used long term on some of the Scottish services on the busier days of the week, to compliment the 12 new EMUs?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Thats hardly comparable to pulling five carriages

Maybe not, but it goes to show how poor the tractive effort is, being geared for 125 doesn't do the locos any favours as they rarely attain that speed.

 

[Greybeard33]

Thats hardly comparable to pulling five carriages

And TPE's own website does say:

220 brand new carriages will be introduced by 2020, providing an additional 13m seats a year which is enough to fill Old Trafford stadium more than 150 times. These state of the art trains, all with capabilities of going 125 mph, will be more reliable with more seats and luggage space, with the first new trains to be delivered by Spring 2018.

How can a train have the "capability of going 125mph" when always hauled by a 68?

 

[dgl]

And TPE's own website does say:

How can a train have the "capability of going 125mph" when always hauled by a 68?

Possibly as they could intend replacing the 68's with 125mph electric locos if the necessary wiring happens.
And remember just because the loco can't go at 125mph doesn't mean the coaches can't.

 

[Peter Sarf]

For the meantime I would have the 68 as their acceleration is pretty damn good. There is no point having a 125mph train if it takes an age to accelerate beyond 100mph. Indeed a 100mph train can complete a journey quicker than a 125mph train unless there are very few stops and a long enough stretch of line passed for 125mph. An electric replacement for the 68 at some point in the future would be the way forward.

 

[Mordac]

Or Class 88 to use the wires where available?