TPE franchise awarded to First

[Bungle965]

Virgin may be much quicker, but if im not in a major rush i will always try to go on Chiltern. On the mainline services you normally have cheaper tickets, comfier seats, paneling that is not rattling constantly not to mention free WIFI.
Sam

 

[al.currie93]

Virgin may be much quicker, but if im not in a major rush i will always try to go on Chiltern. On the mainline services you normally have cheaper tickets, comfier seats, paneling that is not rattling constantly and also free wifi.
Sam

I'll second this, with the addition of having a more spacious carriage.

 

[Starmill]

For what it's worth, I usually make my Birmingham - London journeys with a £17 VT 1ST Advance, which is both quicker and more comfortable than Chiltern

 

[61653 HTAFC]

For what it's worth, I usually make my Birmingham - London journeys with a £17 VT 1ST Advance, which is both quicker and more comfortable than Chiltern

Ah, but Chiltern don't require you to visit the hell hole that is Euston... or the hell hole that is New Street!

 

[RichmondCommu]

Ah, but Chiltern don't require you to visit the hell hole that is Euston... or the hell hole that is New Street!

If you think that either Euston or New Street are "hell holes" you need to travel the world for a bit. Given the frequency of services there is no need to be at either of those stations (at least on the platforms) for any more than a few minutes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Euston might be boring, but the "scrum" aside (which is a factor of the operational method, not of the station itself) it is very effective.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Virgin may be much quicker, but if im not in a major rush i will always try to go on Chiltern. On the mainline services you normally have cheaper tickets, comfier seats, paneling that is not rattling constantly not to mention free WIFI.
Sam

If I travel up to see my Dad (and bear in mind that I always book in advance) on a journey from Euston to Lichfield Virgin always beats Chiltern in price. And I get a seat. There is no advantage in traveling by Chiltern Trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Euston might be boring, but the "scrum" aside (which is a factor of the operational method, not of the station itself) it is very effective.

Honest question here; what's wrong with boring stations?

 

[ainsworth74]

I do find myself slightly perplexed as to why we're talking about the merits of Euston station and the advantages or disadvantages of Chiltern vs Virgin Trains on a thread about the new TPE franchise?

Perhaps we could move back to the topic at hand?

 

[notlob.divad]

I can't lay my hands on it at the moment, but I'm sure the Train Service Requirement shown for Liverpool-Glasgow shows a longer journey time than for Manchester-Glasgow (which is no faster than today).
That despite the likely journey time Lime St-Wigan being much the same as that from Piccadilly-Wigan today (ie 27min, one stop).

While we are at it, the Northern/TPE franchise review in the May Modern Railways has the wording "this order is expected to go to CAF" for the TPE WCML EMUs.

I think Liverpool to Wigan (with a stop at St. Helens) would be slower than Piccadilly to Wigan via Chat Moss. The Huyton Junction - Springs Branch Junction line is a slow line. The Current Northern semi-fast does it in 47 minutes with two stops Huyton and St. Helens pathed as a sprinter. The 319s currently have quite long dwell times at the two intermediate stations so that will knock of a handful of minutes, but I can't see them knocking 20 minutes off with the current infrastructure.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think Liverpool to Wigan (with a stop at St. Helens) would be slower than Piccadilly to Wigan via Chat Moss. The Huyton Junction - Springs Branch Junction line is a slow line. The Current Northern semi-fast does it in 47 minutes with two stops Huyton and St. Helens pathed as a sprinter. The 319s currently have quite long dwell times at the two intermediate stations so that will knock of a handful of minutes, but I can't see them knocking 20 minutes off with the current infrastructure.

The semi fast is timed for 35 minutes Lime St-Wigan (xx28-03) with 2 stops - as you say timed as a Sprinter with no account of the recent infrastructure improvements.
Faster line speeds out of Lime St, missing out Huyton, getting a faster run onto the fast lines at Springs Branch (new junction) and high-powered EMU running should get it down quite a bit.
The Manchester has to navigate the slow Parkside-Lowton-Golborne junctions as well as the Castlefield crawl.
It's the Wigan stoppers that currently take 48 minutes (and could do it in a lot less).

 

[notlob.divad]

The semi fast is timed for 35 minutes Lime St-Wigan (xx28-03) with 2 stops - as you say timed as a Sprinter with no account of the recent infrastructure improvements.
Faster line speeds out of Lime St, missing out Huyton, getting a faster run onto the fast lines at Springs Branch (new junction) and high-powered EMU running should get it down quite a bit.
The Manchester has to navigate the slow Parkside-Lowton-Golborne junctions as well as the Castlefield crawl.
It's the Wigan stoppers that currently take 48 minutes (and could do it in a lot less).

Sorry, my bad, Friday morning mess up with my Maths. I won't say what I did, it is a bit embarrassing.

Yes (with the correct maths) 27 minutes would probably be a good estimate.

Fro the Stoppers, what is the acceleration like on a 319? At the moment, they seem to take an awful long time to get up to speed out of each station. Is that just because it isn't worth the while due to the pathing? or are they really that labored.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Fro the Stoppers, what is the acceleration like on a 319? At the moment, they seem to take an awful long time to get up to speed out of each station. Is that just because it isn't worth the while due to the pathing? or are they really that labored.

They are not greased lightning, for sure.
The Airport/Preston semi fasts are pretty good at getting going through Olive Mount, but the stoppers have no need to hurry on current times.
The Preston gets stuck behind the Victoria stopper at Roby (will be fixed by the 4th track), and has lots of time after St Helens, helped by 100mph on the WCML from Wigan to Balshaw Lane.
They are fast loaders/unloaders compared to 142/156s, so dwell times could be cut.
We don't seem to have heard anything about further 319 upgrades beyond the current cosmetic facelift.
A traction upgrade was on the cards, and as Northern will have something like 27 units interworking with new CAF 331s, maybe this will happen in the future.
Anyway, this is the TPE thread, and we should be talking AT300 or similar performance on the Liverpool-Glasgow services.

 

[lejog]

The December 2017 TSRs includes the following:

One service shall be provided each week between the following locations in at least one direction:

• Manchester Victoria and Stalybridge via Phillips Park Junction and Guide Bridge.
• Leeds and Selby via Milford Junction.

Is there currently a Victoria service running via Phillips Park? I though it was closed for passenger services.

While I can see that this route will be useful while the Stalybridge line is electrified, no other routes used for knowledge retention reasons are specified, it seems a little odd that these two are mandatory.

 

[notlob.divad]

While we are at it, the Northern/TPE franchise review in the May Modern Railways has the wording "this order is expected to go to CAF" for the TPE WCML EMUs.

So what do we reckon? 5 carriage Civitys? max 356 seats in 91.6m
vs the 229 in a 81.6m 350/4 and 338 in a 142m doubled up 185.

Or one of their High Speed offerings?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would hope an EMU version of the Irish Mk5 stock or similar. This is a true InterCity route requiring true InterCity trains.

I wonder if I'm the only one hoping the order falls through so 5x26m EMU AT300s can be ordered instead?

 

[TBSchenker]

The longer the delay on ordering the West Coast trains, the greater the chance of TPE missing their deadlines as part of their franchise spec. Weren't the WCML trains actually meant to be introduced before the East/West Hitatchi trains?

 

[pemma]

The longer the delay on ordering the West Coast trains, the greater the chance of TPE missing their deadlines as part of their franchise spec. Weren't the WCML trains actually meant to be introduced before the East/West Hitatchi trains?

Well if the franchise award to First hadn't been rescinded there would be 6 car CAF EMUs running between Scotland and Birmingham by now. However, Virgin didn't want them and wanted enough mini-Pendolinos to off-load all the Voyagers alongside diesel-electric locos for the non-electrified destinations.

DfT prioritised the East Coast franchise partly to stop Labour keeping it as a public company had they got in to government at the last election.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well if the franchise award to First hadn't been rescinded there would be 6 car CAF EMUs running between Scotland and Birmingham by now.

And I'm glad there aren't - the new WCML service pattern is vastly superior to what First proposed - full-length, well-filled Pendolinos.

 

[pemma]

And I'm glad there aren't - the new WCML service pattern is vastly superior to what First proposed - full-length, well-filled Pendolinos.

But there are some single and double Voyagers running Euston-Birmingham-Scotland and there's a lot more single Voyagers than there would have been between Chester and Euston.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

But there are some single and double Voyagers running Euston-Birmingham-Scotland and there's a lot more single Voyagers than there would have been between Chester and Euston.

It's a while since I saw double Voyagers on the WCML Scotland run.
Seems to be Pendolinos and single Voyagers (occasionally doubling up south of Wolverhampton with Shrewsbury portions).

I think CAF on TPE WCML routes would be a mistake.
They won't have much commonality with Northern's Civitys, and a fleet size of 12 is too small to be efficient (unless there are similar trains nearby).

 

[Bletchleyite]

But there are some single and double Voyagers running Euston-Birmingham-Scotland and there's a lot more single Voyagers than there would have been between Chester and Euston.

Those problems would be solved by obtaining a few extra full-length EMUs of some kind, perhaps New Pendolino based. Short EMUs would have been inadequate.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think CAF on TPE WCML routes would be a mistake.

That depends on whether Hitachi could deliver AT300s in time, which I think would be a better option - but they may not *be* an option until say 2019.

 

[john.aston.96]

Has the CAF deal totally fallen down now ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[pemma]

Has the CAF deal totally fallen down now ?

TPE are rumoured to be looking at Plan B. However, I don't think looking at plan B means plan A has been ruled out, it might be to send a message to CAF that they are unwilling to negotiate any further but if CAF want to change their mind the deal's still on the table.

 

[Greybeard33]

The December 2017 TSRs includes the following:


Is there currently a Victoria service running via Phillips Park? I though it was closed for passenger services.

While I can see that this route will be useful while the Stalybridge line is electrified, no other routes used for knowledge retention reasons are specified, it seems a little odd that these two are mandatory.

The Phillips Park branch is a TPE diversionary route and IIRC there is currently one train per week scheduled this way to retain route knowledge - someone posted a RTT link on another thread a while ago.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I posted a week or so back (I think it was in this thread, and this one is relevant) about the extended canopy under construction at Dewsbury. Turns out it's for bikes!

 

[notlob.divad]

The longer the delay on ordering the West Coast trains, the greater the chance of TPE missing their deadlines as part of their franchise spec. Weren't the WCML trains actually meant to be introduced before the East/West Hitatchi trains?

The longer the delay on ordering the West Coast trains, the greater the chance of TPE missing their deadlines as part of their franchise spec. Weren't the WCML trains actually meant to be introduced before the East/West Hitatchi trains?

Yes the Hitachi Order that has been announced is the last set of trains to come in. Before that are the Anglo-Scottish WCML 5 car EMUs and before that the 'mystery set' which many people seem to have concluded is Loco-Hauled stock.

Has the CAF deal totally fallen down now ?

Only earlier this week someone said that it was very close to being signed. (Cannot validate the truth of this)

TPE are rumoured to be looking at Plan B. However, I don't think looking at plan B means plan A has been ruled out, it might be to send a message to CAF that they are unwilling to negotiate any further but if CAF want to change their mind the deal's still on the table.

Again someone said up thread that is was to do with maintenance and servicing contracts/facilities. (Cannot validate the truth of this.) If this is the case, I would have thought looking to sign a separate maintenance contract so as to get the units on the production line would be sensible rather than walking away and starting again with another supplier.

 

[pemma]

Again someone said up thread that is was to do with maintenance and servicing contracts/facilities. (Cannot validate the truth of this.) If this is the case, I would have thought looking to sign a separate maintenance contract so as to get the units on the production line would be sensible rather than walking away and starting again with another supplier.

It wouldn't be a case of starting again. TPE would have already discussed options and prices with all manufacturers who were willing to offer suitable products. If they hadn't then they wouldn't have been able to decide whose option was best and which offered best value for money.

 

[notlob.divad]

It wouldn't be a case of starting again. TPE would have already discussed options and prices with all manufacturers who were willing to offer suitable products. If they hadn't then they wouldn't have been able to decide whose option was best and which offered best value for money.

Agreed, but doesn't their rolling stock plans have to be submitted as part of the tender to the DfT so it could decide on the best TOC package and thus sign off on the purchases. At this point I would have thought that discussions with other suppliers would have been scaled back massively. If they where then to change the equipment they where intending to supply to run the services does that not mean they have to go back to the DfT for approval etc.

I appreciate it isn't starting from scratch, but the process must go pretty much back to the award of the contract by the DfT.

Anyway, I have been told up thread I am worrying about nothing, so I am not going to worry and assume it is all in hand and by the start of 2019 I will be able to jump on a shiny new EMU that will whisk me up to Oxenholme / Glasgow, wherever I decide to go for the weekend without having to hang around on Wigan platform.

 

[Mordac]

It's a while since I saw double Voyagers on the WCML Scotland run.
Seems to be Pendolinos and single Voyagers (occasionally doubling up south of Wolverhampton with Shrewsbury portions).

The 06:52 from Edinburgh, which I have to take way more often than I would like, is 2 voyagers, as was the 08:52 at least a few months ago.

 

[lejog]

The Phillips Park branch is a TPE diversionary route and IIRC there is currently one train per week scheduled this way to retain route knowledge - someone posted a RTT link on another thread a while ago.

I searched the forum for this before posting and all I was able to find was this quote without an RTT link.

Currently one service per week (Liverpool Newcastle from memory) early Sunday that uses Phillips Park to Ashburys (and back to Stalybridge from Guide Bridge)?

However I couldn't find any Sunday TPE services from Victoria to Guide Bridge (or vice versa) on RTT, hence my question - are there any current TPE passengers services using the Phillips Park line?