TPE franchise awarded to First

[DMU180]

9Got me surprised!

Then again how certain depots sign certain depots yet others don't surprises me, if Liverpool do, then why don't Manchester or airport crews? Unless you know something I don't....

I sign Calder valley yet it's not on my depot route card.

Because Liverpool depot operates the train that runs via Phillips Park. What would the point be of Man Pic/Apt signing it if they never go there?

 

[notlob.divad]

There ought to be a way that when a seat is occupied it cannot be reserved. It shouldn`t be difficult. If I put my wallet on the passenger seat of my car it thinks someone is sitting there and the seat belt alarm goes off !

But you don't know if that person is getting off at the next station, the one after that or the end of the line. Equally you don't know if someone has just left their seat to go to the toilet/get something off the overhead shelf.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But you don't know if that person is getting off at the next station, the one after that or the end of the line. Equally you don't know if someone has just left their seat to go to the toilet/get something off the overhead shelf.

The easiest way to me is that you make obtaining reservations with seat selection really easy - at every TVM, online, via your phone, at a ticket window, at a machine on board - and then you only need a small unreservable area (say 1 or 2 coaches on IC trains) and the rest you reserve if you want to sit there.

As long as the ability to travel walk-up is not lost, I would really like this - I really do hate the boarding scrum of a busy train.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

But you don't know if that person is getting off at the next station, the one after that or the end of the line. Equally you don't know if someone has just left their seat to go to the toilet/get something off the overhead shelf.

Hitachi were researching QR codes and smartphone applications to work in conjunction with on-board train sensors for their digital seat reservation systems.

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/rolling-stock/hitachi-to-show-new-train-mock-ups-in-berlin.html

 

[notlob.divad]

The easiest way to me is that you make obtaining reservations with seat selection really easy - at every TVM, online, via your phone, at a ticket window, at a machine on board - and then you only need a small unreservable area (say 1 or 2 coaches on IC trains) and the rest you reserve if you want to sit there.

As long as the ability to travel walk-up is not lost, I would really like this - I really do hate the boarding scrum of a busy train.

Agree, I would not have a with people reserving a seat once they are on the train. So if you run for a train, find an empty seat, you can sit in it, whip your phone out and reserve the seat you are sat in.

The idea of sensors in the seats to show where empty seats are on a train is a fantastic idea, it can be displayed on in carriage displays and/or on a webpage accessible from the trains Wi-Fi to indicate levels of occupancy along the length of the train. I would even go so far as to say if you reserve a seat from 1 station, but no-one has sat in it by the next station/30 minutes, it could be automatically unreserved or at least switched to a 'tentative' state. However, the idea of using that to then link to a reservation system for people waiting at the next station, preventing them reserving an occupied but unreserved seat when they get on is potentially a step too far as the person in the seat maybe getting off at that station and then if it becomes a thing people start relying on, as I say someone who has occupied a seat gets up for five minutes and then looses their seat.

I understand the frustration, you get on you settle down for your journey in an unreserved seat to find some one then takes it from you at the next station and you have to give it up, and I am sure technology can help, but I am not sure this is the answer.

 

[class26]

Hitachi were researching QR codes and smartphone applications to work in conjunction with on-board train sensors for their digital seat reservation systems.

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/rolling-stock/hitachi-to-show-new-train-mock-ups-in-berlin.html

and for older people who often do not use mobile phones ?

 

[Senex]

Agree, I would not have a [problem] with people reserving a seat once they are on the train. So if you run for a train, find an empty seat, you can sit in it, whip your phone out and reserve the seat you are sat in.

That's the obvious and easy way of doing it. But no sign so far of any TOC taking it up.

Another way forward might be to go for the idea of advance tickets being tied to a particular train rather than to a particular seat ("Zugverbindung") and making seat reservations a separate (charged) transaction.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't see why anyone would not want a seat reservation with an Advance, but I do support charging, say £2, to reduce the number of wasted ones on walk-ups.

 

[Senex]

I can't see why anyone would not want a seat reservation with an Advance, but I do support charging, say £2, to reduce the number of wasted ones on walk-ups.

Tying the ticket to a train rather than a seat avoids the quite significant problem caused by the seats marked reserved but not occupied because the reserves have gone off to sit somewhere else.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

and for older people who often do not use mobile phones ?

The only purpose the QR system serves in booking a seat you're already sitting in is to let the digital reservation system know when that seat will become available for the next reservation.

If the OAP sits in the seat without a reservation, the digital reservation system, thanks to the sensors it uses, will block the seat off from reservation until it has been empty for a pre-determined period of time.

If you take an Aberdeen bound service as an example, if you get on at York and scan the QR code telling the system the seat you're in will be occupied until Edinburgh, the reservation system will make that seat available at Edinburgh for a new passenger to reserve in advance.

If a little old lady gets on and sits next to you, without scanning the QR code, the reservation system will record the seat as being unavailable, and it'll check all the way north whether the seat is still occupied. The little old lady gets off at Newcastle, and nobody sits next to you, by Berwick, the digital reservation system will have determined the passenger has either moved or has alighted at Newcastle, they no longer want that seat and it'll be released back to be made available for a booking.

It might be the case, however, that the seat isn't released back for reservation in time for someone boarding at Berwick to book it electronically in advance, but they'll still be able to sit down in the seat. They could then scan the QR code and say they're going to Edinburgh, making the pair of seats reservable from Edinburgh onwards, or they might not, and just sit in the seat, in which case it might take the reservation system until Inverkeithing before it releases the seat back and makes it reservable.

It's a little bit complex, but it does mean you'll never be left sitting on a seat that is reserved whilst you're sitting on it.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The following optional extra EMU follow on orders must be available to be placed
Option A: seven x 5 car units (for all seven units)
Option B: seven x 6 car units (for all seven units)
Option C: seven x 8 car units (for all seven units)
Option D: up to 15 additional 5 car units such option only to be exercisable if Option A is also exercised
Option E: up to 15 additional 6 car units such option only to be exercisable if Option B is also exercised
Option F: up to 15 additional 8 car units such option only to be exercisable if Option C is also exercised

Do we understand the logic for these options?
There don't seem to be options for loco-hauled coaches or bi-modes.
What scenarios are anticipated which would cause these options (7-22 EMUs) to be exercised - by 2018, for introduction from 2022?
Is it in case more TP wiring goes up than anticipated? Growth of TPE WCML services?
Or is it the DfT wanting quick options for other routes/TOCs (like the last class 350 order)?
One might imagine these options being invoked for ICWC in the next bidding round, as an alternative to more tilting stock.
At 5-7 cars they are not going to the main routes out of London.

The narrative on replacing class 68 with 88 seems to see it as a desired solution rather than a guaranteed one (given the class 88 is still rather an unknown quantity, being unproved in the UK).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

and for older people who often do not use mobile phones ?

Good point. Our younger website members who were born with a smart phone in their tiny hands (the new version of that we elders only knew as a silver spoon in their mouths) would be incredulous to know that some of the more elder members of society only possess a mobile phone that only makes and receives telephone calls

Many years ago, I was watching the satirical TV show "Not the Nine o'clock News" when a sketch appeared called the "Grammophone sketch" with Rowan Atkinson playing the shop assistant and my youngest son seeing the poor unfortunate customer said...."Look, Dad, that's just like you".......it may still be on YouTube.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Do we understand the logic for these options?
There don't seem to be options for loco-hauled coaches or bi-modes.
What scenarios are anticipated which would cause these options (7-22 EMUs) to be exercised - by 2018, for introduction from 2022?
Is it in case more TP wiring goes up than anticipated? Growth of TPE WCML services?
Or is it the DfT wanting quick options for other routes/TOCs (like the last class 350 order)?
One might imagine these options being invoked for ICWC in the next bidding round, as an alternative to more tilting stock.
At 5-7 cars they are not going to the main routes out of London.

The narrative on replacing class 68 with 88 seems to see it as a desired solution rather than a guaranteed one (given the class 88 is still rather an unknown quantity, being unproved in the UK).

Well it could be that it would be enacted towards the end of the franchise at which points.... Leeds to Manchester should be wired. So only the Middlesborough, Scarborough and Hull (But maybe not for long) would require diesel or bi mode.

I think they are anticipating that this is the max amount of diesel/bi mode stock the franchise will ever need.

 

[notlob.divad]

Do we understand the logic for these options?
There don't seem to be options for loco-hauled coaches or bi-modes.
What scenarios are anticipated which would cause these options (7-22 EMUs) to be exercised - by 2018, for introduction from 2022?
Is it in case more TP wiring goes up than anticipated? Growth of TPE WCML services?
Or is it the DfT wanting quick options for other routes/TOCs (like the last class 350 order)?
One might imagine these options being invoked for ICWC in the next bidding round, as an alternative to more tilting stock.
At 5-7 cars they are not going to the main routes out of London.

The narrative on replacing class 68 with 88 seems to see it as a desired solution rather than a guaranteed one (given the class 88 is still rather an unknown quantity, being unproved in the UK).

My guess would be part of it is contingency. If the 88s do turn out not to be suitable. EMUs could replace the entirely under the wires services.

There is also the option of increasing the frequency of the new Liverpool-Glasgow services from the 3tpd to a 1tp2hr or 1tph service if they prove popular. Given varying levels of potential passenger growth on the Manchester -Glasgow/Edinburgh routes gives rise to different requirements for this. If the Manchester route becomes as overcrowded as people imply new 6 or 8 carriage trains could be used for this with the 5 carriage units moved to increase the frequency of Liverpool.

Finally, it would be safe to assume there is more infill electrification work in the pipeline that is not public knowledge yet. South Transpennine, Liverpool-CLC-Manchester, Chester-Warrington, Calder Valley, Preston - Colne/Todmorden, Carforth-Barrow as a few examples just in the North West.
As these are the only current Intercity style EMU currently being bought in the UK it is therefore prudent that options for future purchase of this style of unit (whether they are intended for future use on the Transpennine routes or not) is included in TPEs bid.

 

[WatcherZero]

I Could see four scenarios.

1. if the 5 car turn out to be inadequate for the WCML they could order additional/longer.
2. If TPE electrification is ahead or alternately IEP deliveries are running late.
3. Available for short notice orders for the rest of the country
4. The Government is fairly confident that Rail North is planning to specify an enhanced service for initial NPR services after Transpennine Electrification.

Four seems most likely to me.

 

[Roose]

and for older people who often do not use mobile phones ?

They could ask a nearby older person who does so regularly to help them?

 

[BurtonM]

New signage at Stalybridge.
Bluntly: Rail Alphabet was better. It's not bad but I don't like it personally. It's a bit too 'overly cheerful advertising' to me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I quite like that. It looks modern and attractive while not looking tacky, it's also very clear.

 

[TBSchenker]

Logo is very large. Can't see the signs for Manchester Airport having it so large.

 

[BurtonM]

To be honest I think I'm just overly fond of Rail Alphabet, on second look it's not that bad.
I imagine the font (or sign?) size will vary quite a bit between stations.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Platform lengthening obligations of the franchise.

Cottingley both platforms to be extended from 4x23m to 6x23m
Ravensthorpe both platforms to be extended from 4x23m to 6x23m
Mirfield Platform 1 and 2 to be extended from 4x23m to 6x23m
Slaithwaite both platforms to be extended from 4x23m to 6x23m
Marsden Platform 1 and 3 to be extended from 4x23m to 6x23m
South Milford both platforms to be extended from 4x23m to 6x23m

The platforms aren't all 4 x 23m vehicles now anyway, some can't even accommodate a single 185 which is 3 x 23m vehicles. The agreements says that TPE has to get prices for extending the platforms to either 4 x 23m length OR 6 x 23m length and that once the prices are in the Secretary of State will decide which one to specify.

You missed the bit about Deighton and Yarm being extended to 4 x 23m vehicles (no option for 6 x 23m) and Habrough to 6 x 23m vehicles (no option for 4 x 23m).

 

[Mordac]

Philip Haigh on Rail 805, p. 35, gives the TOPS for the new CAF EMUs as Class 397. Haven't seen this anywhere else. Is this confirmed, or is he just making things up?

 

[D365]

Philip Haigh on Rail 805, p. 35, gives the TOPS for the new CAF EMUs as Class 397. Haven't seen this anywhere else.

Remind me again why the Class 700/800 ranges have been opened up :roll:

 

[WatcherZero]

To make it easier to use pan European TOPs codes.

 

[D365]

So why are none of the new CAF MUs being classified as such?

Ironic though, given our recent 'decision' with regards the Europe situation

EDIT: Class 397 has been confirmed here.

 

[Mordac]

EDIT: Class 397 has been confirmed here.

That's the same article I quoted. :P

 

[D365]

That's the same article I quoted. :P

Apologies. Well you have your link here!

 

[Mordac]

Apologies. Well you have your link here!

No worries! Didn't know Rail was available online otherwise I would have linked it. I really wonder about these EMUs, not much has been made known about them. I agree with you that if they do go with a TOPS in the 3xx range it does seem a bit of a mockery of the new ranges. :-x

 

[swt_passenger]

To make it easier to use pan European TOPs codes.

The amended group standard introduces long European vehicle numbers (EVNs) as being pan-European, but even then they are not displayed externally on GB passenger stock.

EMU and DMU classes and fixed set numbers are not part of the TSI requirements, and are not allocated on a European basis.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No worries! Didn't know Rail was available online otherwise I would have linked it. I really wonder about these EMUs, not much has been made known about them. I agree with you that if they do go with a TOPS in the 3xx range it does seem a bit of a mockery of the new ranges. :-x

The new ranges are not compulsory in any way. This has been discussed many times, and there are a number of yet to be introduced classes using numbers in the 3xx range.

 

[kieron]

There ought to be a way that when a seat is occupied it cannot be reserved. It shouldn`t be difficult. If I put my wallet on the passenger seat of my car it thinks someone is sitting there and the seat belt alarm goes off !

And, if I sit at a table with four seats, and scatter my belongings around the three I'm not sitting on myself...

I think reserving a seat needs to be a deliberate action which is linked to the individual, or the ticket, so as to discourage people from reserving more seats than they need.