TPE not getting franchise extension?

[Pumbaa]

When I heard this originally, I dismissed it as meaningless wibble, standard run of the railway rumours rumours and rumours

But having heard about this from three different directions (traincrew having a mothers meeting into Manc; managerial person at Manc and the last one being today on another forum) I thought I'd ask here, hear if anyone else has info or thoughts.

Apparently fTPE aren't being granted their franchise extensions from beyond Jan 2012. Seems fair enough, although a disappointment I think as fTPE have always been good to me. But the grapevine suggests Northern will not be granted a franchise extension either, with their franchise due to end Sept 2013. They would be then combined.

If it is to end in 2012, then it's about the right time for DfT to start to raise interest in the new franchise.

Could this be linked to Heidi Mottrams departure earlier from Northern, as well as several directors from Northern who are going shortly?

 

[142094]

What would happen to the Transpennine franchise between Jan 2012 and the time Northern's franchise finishes in 2013, or would Northern's come to an end at the same time?

IIRC some of the Transpennine routes used to be in the same franchise as Northern's, under Northern Spirit (and possibly ATN?). I can vaguely remember 158s on Newcastle - Manchester services and also Sunderland - Liverpool Lime Street ones as well.

 

[43167]

It would be a shame if thats the case, because they havent done much wrong. The trains are usually bang on time. The only problem I would say is lack of seats, but thats happen more since TPE started working up the WCML, (though wasnt that a DFT idea?).

But a combind franchise with Northern could be a good thing. Would be intresting to see if First go for it, as they have a strong precence on the ECML all ready FCC, Hull Trains, TPE & Scotrail

 

[CarterUSM]

I would be very suprised, and disappointed, if they bid and actually won it. That'd be another step closer to a First UK Railways monopoly. I do feel that TPE haven't done much wrong though. It'd have been a better idea having Scotrail run the service from Central-Manchester Airport. Though unsure where the units would have come from.

 

[GNERman]

Apparently fTPE aren't being granted their franchise extensions from beyond Jan 2012. Seems fair enough, although a disappointment I think as fTPE have always been good to me. But the grapevine suggests Northern will not be granted a franchise extension either, with their franchise due to end Sept 2013. They would be then combined.

This could be a good thing, it simplifies the fleet and depot I was amazed that the York - Blackpool North services weren't given to TPE to run. It isn't a great service due to the 158's and that it stops everywhere. It would have been better if they could have got 185's for the route.

Leeds doesn't have a good link to the WCML, and this should be addressed by the DfT, I see no reason why the York - Blackpool can't be speeded up by cutting out some stations eg. Bramley, Accrington.

 

[poshbakerloo]

Recently quite a few TPE services that go thru Piccadilly have been delayed by 15mins +
Also they are all way over crowded...

 

[Bellwater]

TPE Drivers have been in dispute twice in about a year, leading to cancellations. that's not gone down well at all.

Only now the penny has dropped for First and they are taking on extra Drivers.

I'll believe it when i see it.

 

[Burkitt]

I wonder if this is anything to do with the plans for electrification and rolling stock cascades? Simpler to have a new franchise with rolling stock changes already in the agreement than to negotiate with the existing franchise holders on how many trains they are prepared to gain and lose, maybe?

 

[driver9000]

What would happen to the Transpennine franchise between Jan 2012 and the time Northern's franchise finishes in 2013, or would Northern's come to an end at the same time?

IIRC some of the Transpennine routes used to be in the same franchise as Northern's, under Northern Spirit (and possibly ATN?). I can vaguely remember 158s on Newcastle - Manchester services and also Sunderland - Liverpool Lime Street ones as well.

Northerns franchise ends in 2011 unless they are granted an extension too which would take them to 2013.

The TPE routes you refer to were part of the Northern Spirit franchise the only one that got away that I know of was Blackpool North-York which is operated by Northern. The services were operated mostly with the maroon liveried 158s.

 

[GNERman]

The TPE routes you refer to were part of the Northern Spirit franchise the only one that got away that I know of was Blackpool North-York which is operated by Northern. The services were operated mostly with the maroon liveried 158s.

The York - Blackpool service was formerly the Scarborough - Blackpool service, there was the Sunderland - Liverpool as well.

It was a shame that this service was stopped at Newcastle, Sunderland hasn't had the greatest of luck since the Metro extension. The Carlisle - Middlesborough is now two hourly and terminates at Hexham. GC's service to London has filled in a big gap for the route though.

There was talk that XC would extend their Newcastle - Reading to Sunderland but this never materialised.

 

[Lampshade]

Also they are all way over crowded...

You say that but I got on a TPE at Piccadilly on Friday, there were loads of people on the platform and when everyone got on it was full and standing - except it wasn't. I got in the leading carriage further down platform 14 and it was pretty much empty with plenty of seats, yet passengers were standing in the other two :?

 

[northwichcat]

Some doubled up TPE services are portion workings e.g. Scarborough/Newcastle, Barrow/Edinburgh, Blackpool/Windermere so boarding a busy portion could prevent swapping to the other unit part way along.

 

[ukrob]

Recently quite a few TPE services that go thru Piccadilly have been delayed by 15mins +
Also they are all way over crowded...

All of them? Every single one? You make some very daft statements. Especially considering they don't have a choice in what stock they use.

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

It was a shame that this service was stopped at Newcastle, Sunderland hasn't had the greatest of luck since the Metro extension. The Carlisle - Middlesborough is now two hourly and terminates at Hexham. GC's service to London has filled in a big gap for the route though.

There is still an hourly service from Boro through to Hexham, but only 2 return trains per day between Boro & Carlisle, with the rest terminating at Hexham (all of these operate through Hartlepool, Sunderland & The Coast)

Im all for TPE re-opening the Sunderland - Liverpool Lime St service though, its definately needed here.

 

[The 158 Man]

All of them? Every single one? You make some very daft statements. Especially considering they don't have a choice in what stock they use.

The 0738 Scarborough - York (Liverpool Lime Street) is always very busy. It was packed this morning. For some reason, it's always busiest on a Monday morning and quietest on a Friday morning..... :?

Other services aren't always packed though.

 

[142094]

Northerns franchise ends in 2011 unless they are granted an extension too which would take them to 2013.

So it is, depending on performance targets according to Rail. Would be a shame if they do lose the franchise as they have been very good IMO, and would be even better if they got the new stock that they were promised and which has yet to materialise.

 

[poshbakerloo]

All of them? Every single one? You make some very daft statements. Especially considering they don't have a choice in what stock they use.

:roll: not every single last one, just like pretty regularly...

 

[ukrob]

:roll: not every single last one, just like pretty regularly...

You shouldn't have said every single one then.

 

[poshbakerloo]

You shouldn't have said every single one then.

I've never known members of a forum to take so much stuff quite so literally...

 

[Fincra5]

DfT are also planning to combine the Thameslink, South Central & South Eastern division franchises in 2015. When all of the 3 current franchises terminate.

 

[Burkitt]

DfT are also planning to combine the Thameslink, South Central & South Eastern division franchises in 2015. When all of the 3 current franchises terminate.

Is that including the Great Northern routes that are currently part of the Thameslink Franchise? If so, didn't that used to be called Network Southeast?

 

[StewieG]

I've never known members of a forum to take so much stuff quite so literally...

Well if i'm honest... I travel to Manchester quite a lot, and most of the trains i've been on have been bang on time into Piccadilly, and I can say the same for a few other colleagues as well. So in all fairness, I can completely see where people are taking the literal from. Why burn a TOC when it's not true?

 

[Aictos]

DfT are also planning to combine the Thameslink, South Central & South Eastern division franchises in 2015. When all of the 3 current franchises terminate.

I can see the sense in that as south of the river, nearly all possible destinations reached using the Thameslink is also possible via Southern and South Eastern.

Although I can see the practical side of just having one franchise run the routes, it does beg the question of how far will the DfT go with combining the routes.

In 2015, could we possibily see the UK as below?

Northern franchise combining both existing Northern and Trans Pennine Express franchises.

Great Western franchise using the existing First Great Western franchise and parts of the existing South West franchise.

Greater Anglia franchise finally combining the existing C2C franchise with the existing National Express East Anglia franchise.

Scotland franchise using the existing First ScotRail franchise.

Wales franchise using the existing Arriva Trains Wales franchise.

Midlands franchise combining parts of the existing London Midland and all of the East Midland Trains franchises.

East Coast franchise combining both existing East Coast and Great Northern franchises.

West Coast franchise combining both existing West Coast and parts of the existing London Midland franchise.

Southern franchise combining the existing Thameslink franchise, South Eastern, Southern and parts of South West Trains.

Cross Country franchise to run as pre Operation Princess offering extra services on top of the franchised operator and Open Access Operators to stay as they are at the moment.

More or less keeping in aim with the then SRA goal of one franchise per London Terminal.

 

[ukrob]

Well if i'm honest... I travel to Manchester quite a lot, and most of the trains i've been on have been bang on time into Piccadilly, and I can say the same for a few other colleagues as well. So in all fairness, I can completely see where people are taking the literal from. Why burn a TOC when it's not true?

To be controversial as per usual :roll:

 

[142094]

I've never known members of a forum to take so much stuff quite so literally...

When you make sweeping statements such as you do quite often, and do not back them up with evidence then people on here have every right to pull you up about it.

Next time how about providing some evidence before you post? Your arguments and statements would have a lot more weight to them if you did so.

 

[Crossforth]

Although people complain of overcrowding on TPE services, which yes, I have travelled with them when we are packed in like sardines, literally, TPE did go to order an extra carrige for each 185 yet DaFT cancelled this when the placed their own order for a uniform fleet of DMUs which was also cancelled and the 185 production line has since been closed.

Hope that makes sense

 

[TG]

When I heard this originally, I dismissed it as meaningless wibble, standard run of the railway rumours rumours and rumours

But having heard about this from three different directions (traincrew having a mothers meeting into Manc; managerial person at Manc and the last one being today on another forum) I thought I'd ask here, hear if anyone else has info or thoughts.

Apparently fTPE aren't being granted their franchise extensions from beyond Jan 2012. Seems fair enough, although a disappointment I think as fTPE have always been good to me. But the grapevine suggests Northern will not be granted a franchise extension either, with their franchise due to end Sept 2013. They would be then combined.

If it is to end in 2012, then it's about the right time for DfT to start to raise interest in the new franchise.

Could this be linked to Heidi Mottrams departure earlier from Northern, as well as several directors from Northern who are going shortly?

what a load of tosh! nobody knows what's going to happen to northern until the end of the "golden year" in april, i can tell you one thing though, they are right on target with their performance targets so far so it's looking good for the extention!!

 

[yorksrob]

Even though I don't agree with the franchise system, I'd have to say I'd be sad to see Northern go whilst it's around as they do make a good effort with what they're given (and I'm speaking as a commuter who uses 3 - 4 of their trains every day), although they could always do with some later trains back from Leeds at a sensible time!

As for TPE, they strike me as offering a reggie railways service at inter-city prices if you know what I mean. (yes they do have the all night York - Manchester airport line but it's too far from me to be of any use!

 

[ffcphone]

I'm a daily commuter between Bolton and Preston. 99% of the time I catch the 0759 fTPE Bolton to Preston (which is actually the Manchester Airport to Edinburgh service). Coming back, 99% of the time I catch the 1710 or 1747 fTPE Preston to Bolton.

I can confidently say that in the 4 years or so I have been travelling in this manner, including in snow, ice, fog, floods, etc, my intended train in either direction has only ever been cancelled 3 times and delayed more than 10 minutes only 5 times. With almost incredulour regularity the above trains in both directions arrive within 2-4 minutes of the timetabled time.

Having experience Northern, Virgin Trains, Arriva CrossCountry and Arriva Trains Wales services in the same period, albeit only one-offs, I am of the opinion fTPE staff are very friendly and helpful, trains are kept surprisingly clean, and services are reliable.

I, for one, will be disappointed to see the back of fTPE and Vernon.

F

 

[Polarbear]

I'm sure there was somthing in the rail press regarding this a while back. The gist of the story was that the terms of the original TPE franchise were somewhat generous & DFT consider they can get a better deal if the franchise is re-let. Sorry, I've not got a specific source for this.

I also have a friend who works with another First TOC who says the TPE franchise won't be extended.

Given the various announcements on electrification in the North West, I suspect there may well be a re-drawing of the franchise map around the Manchester area in the next few years.