TPE Nova 3 (Class 68 + Mk5s) updates and withdrawal from service

[800001]

Our control staff don't control anything. They sit back and watch the train plan fall to s*** on a daily basis with no input from them to try and change anything. I have personally rang them on numerous occasions to suggest ways of reinstating trains, only to be told "well we've already cancelled it now".

I know the majority of issues fall down to planning, we all know that. but day to day, control are useless. If you'd ever rang our control about a simple (and I mean simple) mk5 fault, you'd understand exactly where I'm coming from.

Go and work with them In control and see how you do!
I love people who come on here and critique conteol teams without knowing what they face as a team!
Yes they mistake, all people do, but to late blame to them without knowing what they are facing is uncalled for.

In the very specific case of TPE some of the blame can be directed at control. TPE’s seemingly default option to any sort of disruption is to automatically cancel everything, even where the line is open with capacity, and there’s both train and crew in place ready to run the service.

It’s especially noticeable between York and Newcastle where the default is to cancel everything and dump everyone onto LNER. TPE not having the slightest bit of concern about how passengers for the two stations not served by LNER (Thirsk and Chester le Street) are supposed to get to where they’re going, they’ve dumped it onto LNER and cease to consider it to be their problem. The end result increasingly often being LNER station staff arranging taxis for passengers themselves.
It doesn’t help when control send one message to the social media team and something completely different to station staff, as happens regularly with TPE, as it leads to station staff either not knowing about what’s happening at all or in some cases finding out what’s happening from the passengers showing them on Twitter.
Control might not be the root cause of TPE’s issues but they’re certainly not helping things.

It’s a very stark contrast to the likes of LNER where it’s noticeable that control will do anything they can to keep services running, regardless Network Rail, the DFT or the Great British weather throws at them.

I suggest you apply for a role in TPE control.
Yes they make mistakes. But can you imagine the pressure that small team of people is under to attempt to deliver a service?
Maybe 5-6 people who are, from personal knowledge, busting a gut day in, day out to do the damn best they can to deliver a service.

 

[coxxy]

I can imagine the pressure and the stress at time and I don't mind saying that I wouldn't be able to cope doing a controllers job, but if traincrew made half the mistakes control make, we'd be getting dragged over hot coals on a daily basis.

Hopefully things improve for ALL of us sometime soon, but until then, I stick by what I have said.

Go and work with them In control and see how you do!
I love people who come on here and critique conteol teams without knowing what they face as a team!
Yes they mistake, all people do, but to late blame to them without knowing what they are facing is uncalled for.


I suggest you apply for a role in TPE control.
Yes they make mistakes. But can you imagine the pressure that small team of people is under to attempt to deliver a service?
Maybe 5-6 people who are, from personal knowledge, busting a gut day in, day out to do the damn best they can to deliver a service.

 

[CAF397]

Go and work with them In control and see how you do!
I love people who come on here and critique conteol teams without knowing what they face as a team!

This line is often trotted out whenever criticism is laid at the door of Control (or other departments).

The return gesture is also open. Any member of the control team is welcome to stand with traincrew on a platform at night when they just find out their train has been cancelled due to no driver or guard (that would have been known about for several hours). They are welcome to help deal with the inevitable angry passengers face to face.

Or join traincrew in taxi journeys for an hour and a half at rush hour because their first train has been cancelled but they have to pick up the rest of their diagram.

The current situation is Traincrew don't trust Control.

If criticism is being said, then it's often justified. TPE is broken, departments seem to be at each others throats instead of working together. The new MD has much more Bridge building to do to make the TOC work.

 

[Peter Sarf]

It seems quite likely to me that we are heading for meltdown if not careful. Lets face it the system is creaking. The number of problems is too high, the amount of overtime/rest-day-working expected is unhealthy for both staff and the business. It is compounded by overtime bans (and I am not pointing blame here but it must be making things harder). Control are very likely overloaded and they see the whole picture not just the bit a train crew see. The answer is not to start shooting at each other - otherwise the railways of the UK are really going to descend to another level of decline.

And on the subject of Mk5s. They are the weakest fleet. They might have huge potential but why throw away alternative fleets that work and have plenty of competent staff to operate them. The elephant in the room is that the state wants cutbacks and the only way round that is to go find funding from somewhere else (good luck).

Someone wake me up when we discover the announcement is that the DfT wants to order more Mk5s !.

 

[reb0118]

You'd think Scotrail might want them instead of 222's, to replace HST's...

Funnily enough this was being mentioned at the bothy at Edinburgh Waverley today. A driver heard it from a shunter who heard it from a fitter who heard it from his auntie that ScotRail were getting the Mk.Vs (no mention if they'd be on the Fife Cirles).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It seems quite likely to me that we are heading for meltdown if not careful. Lets face it the system is creaking. The number of problems is too high, the amount of overtime/rest-day-working expected is unhealthy for both staff and the business. It is compounded by overtime bans (and I am not pointing blame here but it must be making things harder). Control are very likely overloaded and they see the whole picture not just the bit a train crew see. The answer is not to start shooting at each other - otherwise the railways of the UK are really going to descend to another level of decline.

And on the subject of Mk5s. They are the weakest fleet. They might have huge potential but why throw away alternative fleets that work and have plenty of competent staff to operate them. The elephant in the room is that the state wants cutbacks and the only way round that is to go find funding from somewhere else (good luck).

Someone wake me up when we discover the announcement is that the DfT wants to order more Mk5s !.

Part of the problem is that the current government seem to have lost all interest in solving the problems they've caused, yet rather than doing the decent thing and calling an early General Election they seem determined to cling on in a zombie-like state until their time runs out. I would say we should go out on the streets and demand a snap election, but I have no confidence that Labour would do any better... it'll just be the broken promises of the Wilson-Castle era all over again!

 

[pennine]

Part of the problem is that the current government seem to have lost all interest in solving the problems they've caused, yet rather than doing the decent thing and calling an early General Election they seem determined to cling on in a zombie-like state until their time runs out. I would say we should go out on the streets and demand a snap election, but I have no confidence that Labour would do any better... it'll just be the broken promises of the Wilson-Castle era all over again!

So why call for an election if yoy don't want the alterative?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Go and work with them In control and see how you do!
I love people who come on here and critique conteol teams without knowing what they face as a team!
Yes they mistake, all people do, but to late blame to them without knowing what they are facing is uncalled for.


I suggest you apply for a role in TPE control.
Yes they make mistakes. But can you imagine the pressure that small team of people is under to attempt to deliver a service?
Maybe 5-6 people who are, from personal knowledge, busting a gut day in, day out to do the damn best they can to deliver a service.

Do you want to throw a strop elsewhere perhaps, as this is really, really irrelevant.

With regards to the MK5 withdrawals, yes the DfT budget cuts have hit hard but this particular example is so very different to Southern 455s, XC and GWR HSTs, etc etc. Transpennine Express have had these sets sat round doing absolutely jack all for four years. Now that it’s nationalised, too right it should be stopped!

 

[pennine]

Do you want to throw a strop elsewhere perhaps, as this is really, really irrelevant.

With regards to the MK5 withdrawals, yes the DfT budget cuts have hit hard but this particular example is so very different to Southern 455s, XC and GWR HSTs, etc etc. Transpennine Express have had these sets sat round doing absolutely jack all for four years. Now that it’s nationalised, too right it should be stopped!

Ageee!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

So why call for an election if yoy don't want the alterative?

I didn't say I don't want the alternative, I'm just not overly confident in their ability (or willingness, or wherewithal) to sort out the problem. Unfortunately we're caught between a rock and a hard place!

 

[SuperNova]

Our control staff don't control anything. They sit back and watch the train plan fall to s*** on a daily basis with no input from them to try and change anything. I have personally rang them on numerous occasions to suggest ways of reinstating trains, only to be told "well we've already cancelled it now".

I know the majority of issues fall down to planning, we all know that. but day to day, control are useless. If you'd ever rang our control about a simple (and I mean simple) mk5 fault, you'd understand exactly where I'm coming from.

You really need to get your head out of the sand. Control aren’t the problem.

Do you want to throw a strop elsewhere perhaps, as this is really, really irrelevant.

With regards to the MK5 withdrawals, yes the DfT budget cuts have hit hard but this particular example is so very different to Southern 455s, XC and GWR HSTs, etc etc. Transpennine Express have had these sets sat round doing absolutely jack all for four years. Now that it’s nationalised, too right it should be stopped!

It’s relevant when nonsense is being thrown around.

Anyway: There were murmurs about the Mk5s going before nationalisation. As early as 2021. CAF have delivered a bad product and the training backlog isn’t helped by having essentially four different types of rolling stock to train on in some depots (including loco).

 

[coxxy]

You really need to get your head out of the sand. Control aren’t the problem.

Next time someone in control slams the phone down on me, or takes 20 minutes to make a simple decision. I'll remember to take my head out of the sand before getting annoyed then.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

or takes 20 minutes to make a simple decision.

And how do you know it’s a simple decision? There is often more than meets the eye.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Do you want to throw a strop elsewhere perhaps, as this is really, really irrelevant.

With regards to the MK5 withdrawals, yes the DfT budget cuts have hit hard but this particular example is so very different to Southern 455s, XC and GWR HSTs, etc etc. Transpennine Express have had these sets sat round doing absolutely jack all for four years. Now that it’s nationalised, too right it should be stopped!

As I said. The industry is descending into chaos. I don't think @800001 was throwing a strop any more than the person they were reacting to. This is all sadly symptomatic of the mess the UK railways are getting into and it is descending into pointless infighting.

As for Mk5s being different - I think once the implementation of 68s+Mk5s had got off to a slow start the Mk5s were at a disadvantage as the (preferred I suspect) 802s came on stream. I have no doubt the Mk5s would not have been ordered if TPE had known they would not be ready much in advance of the 802s. The Mk5s were supposed to be the quick solution to the long lead time for 802s iirc. With the lease on Mk5s planned to end in 2024 and them being a microfleet there was little incentive for TPE to make much effort to use the Mk5s once Covid had taken its toll of passenger numbers and driver availability.

Another fleet that has had a dire implementation is the 701s. The 777s are dragging their heels also. All from different manufacturers - so what the common factor ?. Ironically I think the Mk5s have done quite well by comparison !.

So why call for an election if yoy don't want the alterative?

Don't forget, there is more than one alternative party. Plus very importantly people would do well to make a determined effort to vote for the least inappropriate party rather than sit at home not voting. Our forefathers died so we could vote and moan.

Its the last working day of the week - where is the TPE announcement on Mk5s ?. We need some facts to fill the vacuum that is sucking in speculation etc etc !.

 

[xotGD]

Details of the TPE timetable have been circulated by management to staff and trade union representatives today, with a caveat that it is still to be approved by Rail North Partnership.
Anglo-Scottish services – WCML

• No Change



Newcastle – Edinburgh – ECML

East Linton calls may be ‘switched on’, with the station likely to open during this timetable


South Route

A full hourly Cleethorpes – Liverpool Lime Street service worked entirely by Class 185s in a mixture of three and six car formations.


North Route

The following hourly off-peak pattern will apply. This also runs all day on Saturdays and Sundays.

Newcastle – Liverpool Lime Street (with slightly long dwell at Manchester Victoria) worked by Class 802s.
Scarborough – York with limited through workings to Leeds and Manchester, worked by Class 185s and Class 802s
Saltburn – Manchester Airport worked by Class 185s (mostly doubles)
Hull – Manchester Piccadilly calling all stations Leeds to Huddersfield, then fast to Piccadilly, worked by Class 185s
Manchester Piccadilly – Huddersfield stopper (Through stopper all the way to Leeds, Monday to Friday peaks and evenings only)


The following pattern applies Monday – Friday peak times:

Newcastle – Liverpool Lime Street (with long dwell at Manchester Victoria) worked by Class 802s.
Scarborough – York with a number of through workings to Leeds and Manchester, worked by Class 185s and Class 802s
Saltburn – Manchester Airport worked by Class 185s (mostly doubles)
Hull – Manchester Victoria, express westbound, but still calling all stations between Huddersfield and Leeds eastbound
Manchester Piccadilly – Huddersfield stopper, extending to York via Wakefield at 0658/0858/1458/1658 each way including Saturdays, but not Sundays
Additional Manchester Piccadilly – Huddersfield stopper to create half hourly frequency which is then express to Leeds eastbound, all stations between Leeds and Huddersfield westbound

The above from the December timetable thread.

 

[darylyates17]

The above from the December timetable thread.

So only 1 hourly service on Chat Moss from December?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The above from the December timetable thread.

Great stuff... because running the stoppers across Huddersfield (and through from Hull) worked so well last time!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The above from the December timetable thread.

...which pretty much confirms the demise of the Mk5s ahead of the official announcement!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The above from the December timetable thread.

Confirmed in a video from the Interim MD that 68s and Mk5s to be withdrawn from service and placed in to storage.

Seemingly no plan to return them to service at TPE with a comment that there is sufficient capacity with 802s and 185s until at least 2027.

 

[BoroAndy]

Confirmed in a video from the Interim MD that 68s and Mk5s to be withdrawn from service and placed in to storage.

Seemingly no plan to return them to service at TPE with a comment that there is sufficient capacity with 802s and 185s until at least 2027.

As long as that doesn't mean 3 car 185s. 1 step forward 6 steps back.

 

[jonhewes]

I completely understand that the sets are being withdrawn to maximise operational / commercial efficienty, though I do think it's a shame that these are getting withdrawn. Unlike the class 185s, these actually had the feeling of a proper intercity train, something you don't usually experience in the UK unless you're travelling to or from capital cities.

From a capacity perspective, doubled-up class 185s will be good, though I'm sure that I've read of instances that on Friday // Saturday nights, the rear-most sets have to be locked out of use due to non-availability of a second guard.

 

[EZJ]

I completely understand that the sets are being withdrawn to maximise operational / commercial efficienty, though I do think it's a shame that these are getting withdrawn. Unlike the class 185s, these actually had the feeling of a proper intercity train, something you don't usually experience in the UK unless you're travelling to or from capital cities.

From a capacity perspective, doubled-up class 185s will be good, though I'm sure that I've read of instances that on Friday // Saturday nights, the rear-most sets have to be locked out of use due to non-availability of a second guard.

A 6 car 185 can run with just one conductor.

 

[Jay_312]

There is only 1 guard in a 6car 185 anyway so there must be other reasons the rear set is locked out of use.

 

[CAF397]

Great stuff... because running the stoppers across Huddersfield (and through from Hull) worked so well last time!

This time there's less express trains to get in the way!

 

[Peter Sarf]

Anglo-Scottish services – WCML

• No Change



Newcastle – Edinburgh – ECML

• East Linton calls may be ‘switched on’, with the station likely to open during this timetable

South Route

• A full hourly Cleethorpes – Liverpool Lime Street service worked entirely by Class 185s in a mixture of three and six car formations.

North Route

The following hourly off-peak pattern will apply. This also runs all day on Saturdays and Sundays.

• Newcastle – Liverpool Lime Street (with slightly long dwell at Manchester Victoria) worked by Class 802s.
• Scarborough – York with limited through workings to Leeds and Manchester, worked by Class 185s and Class 802s
• Saltburn – Manchester Airport worked by Class 185s (mostly doubles)
• Hull – Manchester Piccadilly calling all stations Leeds to Huddersfield, then fast to Piccadilly, worked by Class 185s
• Manchester Piccadilly – Huddersfield stopper (Through stopper all the way to Leeds, Monday to Friday peaks and evenings only)

The following pattern applies Monday – Friday peak times:

• Newcastle – Liverpool Lime Street (with long dwell at Manchester Victoria) worked by Class 802s.
• Scarborough – York with a number of through workings to Leeds and Manchester, worked by Class 185s and Class 802s
• Saltburn – Manchester Airport worked by Class 185s (mostly doubles)
• Hull – Manchester Victoria, express westbound, but still calling all stations between Huddersfield and Leeds eastbound
• Manchester Piccadilly – Huddersfield stopper, extending to York via Wakefield at 0658/0858/1458/1658 each way including Saturdays, but not Sundays
• Additional Manchester Piccadilly – Huddersfield stopper to create half hourly frequency which is then express to Leeds eastbound, all stations between Leeds and Huddersfield westbound

The above from the December timetable thread.

Thanks @xotGD for finding that.

My bold - I notice that in the above it does not specify what certain services are worked by but we can assume not Mk5s, I assume 185s ?.

 

[jonhewes]

There is only 1 guard in a 6car 185 anyway so there must be other reasons the rear set is locked out of use.

I realise that under normal circumstances they can run on one conductor, though I believe that this was/is due to safety concerns regarding drunk passengers travelling back on the trains on Friday and Saturday nights.

I may have got my wires crossed, so apologies in advance if this is the case.

 

[JonathanH]

What is the current operational state of the coaching sets? Is it possible that some have done their last workings already?

 

[EZJ]

Thanks @xotGD for finding that.

My bold - I notice that in the above it does not specify what certain services are worked by but we can assume not Mk5s, I assume 185s ?.

MD confirmed today the entire Mk5 fleet is to be put into storage, so yes it would be 185's.

What is the current operational state of the coaching sets? Is it possible that some have done their last workings already?

I would certainly imagine that would be the case.

 

[CAF397]

None.

They are claiming the rest of the fleet will be sufficient. They probably know it isn't, but the DfT orders on behalf of HM Treasury will be to say it is!

In the 2016 Franchise, TPE committed to 19 802s, 12 397s and 13 Mk 5a sets. As a result of this 22 Class 185s were to leave the fleet.

Those 22 185s (and so the whole fleet) are still with TPE, so even with the removal of 13 trains they are still 9 trains over what they should've been according to the original franchise.

Of course since then, service patterns have changed and 3-car 185s are no match capacity wise for 5-coach Mk 5s.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

None.

They are claiming the rest of the fleet will be sufficient. They probably know it isn't, but the DfT orders on behalf of HM Treasury will be to say it is!

That’s not actually true, they are instead retaining the 22 x 185 which should have gone off lease.

What extra capacity will be put in to replace the withdrawn L/H train sets?

Class 185s will be retained to replace the mk5 sets. 22 x 3 car sets retained which is 66 vehicles to replace 65 x mk5 vehicles so basically a like for like replacement.