TPE Nova 3 (Class 68 + Mk5s) updates and withdrawal from service

[LYuen]

If its not a stupid question.....
Why are TPE pulling them?
The reliability seems to have improved, the training must be done or near done by now, Scarborough TMD is designed for them, and compared to the 185s they are a nice quiet ride.
If they are fully replaced by 185s complaints could start up again about overcrowding and noisey journeys....So much for OLR operations.
Also, will Scarborough TMD have a role for 185 minor maintenance?

Nova 1 and 2 have specific uses (Class 397 for ECML and Class 802 for WCML through to Transpennine lines) while Class 185 has the number to be used as general purpose stocks.
Meanwhile Nova 3 doesn't has the speed for Scotland services and has restriction due to the noise.
And it was intended to be the bridging solution until the Transpennine routes are electrified (I know it is still in progress), so not surprised the use of it is being reviewed before 185s are retired

Purely hypothetical, it is well known that Class 185 is over-powered and under-capacity - is it possible to extend the set to 4 or 5 coaches by adding trailer coaches?

 

[sjpowermac]

Nova 1 and 2 have specific uses (Class 397 for ECML and Class 802 for WCML through to Transpennine lines) while Class 185 has the number to be used as general purpose stocks.
Meanwhile Nova 3 doesn't has the speed for Scotland services and has restriction due to the noise.
And it was intended to be the bridging solution until the Transpennine routes are electrified (I know it is still in progress), so not surprised the use of it is being reviewed before 185s are retired

Purely hypothetical, it is well known that Class 185 is over-powered and under-capacity - is it possible to extend the set to 4 or 5 coaches by adding trailer coaches?

Well I think it is surprising that in four years TPE have not managed to overcome issues with stabling the Nova 3 sets and as mentioned previously at least some of the problems are self inflicted.

Regarding lengthening the Class 185 sets with additional trailer cars, whilst I’d imagine technically feasible (there was talk of it around 2012ish when it became clear that 3-car trains were going to be insufficient) I would think it would be incredibly expensive.

In addition, I would hope any Rolling Stock Leasing Company would be extremely cautious of TPE after they binned of 4 year old rolling stock, especially if they came and asked for additional vehicles for diesel trains.

It’s a terrible idea.

 

[JonathanH]

Would the diagramming experts on here please be able to suggest a way I could get all four Mk 5 diagrams on a given day if I start from King's Cross on the 09.30? Guessing this would involve a bit of back and forth at some point between York and Scarborough?

The simplifier was posted earlier in the thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...awal-from-service.190693/page-49#post-6293153

However, as there are numerous combinations of journeys that could satisfy travelling on all diagrams, it is perhaps better dealt with in the trip planning section of the forum - https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ll-tpe-68-mk5-diagrams-on-a-given-day.253794/

 

[SuperNova]

A reminder of why they’re being withdrawn currently happening at Gorton…

 

[4630]

A reminder of why they’re being withdrawn currently happening at Gorton…

Indeed. I'd headed out to photograph it and on arrival at my chosen spot just east of Huddersfield noticed that after an on-time departure from MAN it appeared to be at Gorton a long time. It's now been there 90 minutes and counting.

 

[Spartacus]

A reminder of why they’re being withdrawn currently happening at Gorton…

A battery fault with 68031 rather than anything it's hauling.

 

[SuperNova]

Indeed. I'd headed out to photograph it and on arrival at my chosen spot just east of Huddersfield noticed that after an on-time departure from MAN it appeared to be at Gorton a long time. It's now been there 90 minutes and counting.

I suggest getting to SYB. Being rescued and moved there to terminate.

 

[Spartacus]

I suggest getting to SYB. Being rescued and moved there to terminate.

Some unexpected 47830 haulage for some people. I would say lucky if it hadn't been sat there so long!

 

[SuperNova]

Some unexpected 47830 haulage for some people. I would say lucky if it hadn't been sat there so long!

First 47 hauled TP service since 1991?

 

[Spartacus]

First 47 hauled TP service since 1991?

I'd say so, unless you count the Tour de France specials?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The simplifier was posted earlier in the thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...awal-from-service.190693/page-49#post-6293153

However, as there are numerous combinations of journeys that could satisfy travelling on all diagrams, it is perhaps better dealt with in the trip planning section of the forum - https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ll-tpe-68-mk5-diagrams-on-a-given-day.253794/

Thank you, I couldn't find the post with the diagrams in although I knew it was here somewhere!

I've replied on the new thread.

 

[coxxy]

A traincrew depot, and a maintenancr depot with more 68's available.. all within a 3 mile triangle of the failed train.. yet it takes over 2 hours to get it moved by use of a thunderbird..

Couldn't write it..

 

[sjpowermac]

A reminder of why they’re being withdrawn currently happening at Gorton…

Just imagine if the Class 185 fire a few weeks back had been a Class 68/Mk5A set, the whole fleet would have been grounded immediately. But let’s just sweep that one under the carpet.

All ways round, very cheap comment…

 

[Spartacus]

A traincrew depot, and a maintenancr depot with more 68's available.. all within a 3 mile triangle of the failed train.. yet it takes over 2 hours to get it moved by use of a thunderbird..

Couldn't write it..

It was only after an hour that the driver declared 68031 a total failure then it would have taken about an hour to get a loco from Longsight to the front of the train at Gorton via Pic & Vic (dunno if they'd sign via Denton), and that's after it was prepped so would probably have taken longer to get it moving than using the 47.

 

[greyman42]

185s are all in all pretty good, just too short. I'd take a double 185 over any of the new kit.

Agreed. They are the comfiest of the TPE stock.

I agree!

However, some residents in Saltburn say otherwise https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/local-news/yorkshire-seaside-town-residents-wake-26299033

I was referring to the internal noise when travelling on them.

As regards noise of 185s, I was referring to the internal noise to passengers with engines under the carriages, now we have moved onto loco hauled, being much quieter.

In my opinion the under carriage engines are quiet.

 

[800001]

A reminder of why they’re being withdrawn currently happening at Gorton…

And it could quite easily of been an 185/802 failure?

 

[EZJ]

A traincrew depot, and a maintenancr depot with more 68's available.. all within a 3 mile triangle of the failed train.. yet it takes over 2 hours to get it moved by use of a thunderbird..

Couldn't write it..

Wouldn't be much use another driver bringing a 68 from Longsight as they're not allowed to couple them together.

 

[coxxy]

Wouldn't be much use another driver bringing a 68 from Longsight as they're not allowed to couple them together.

Indeed.. but sure there was plenty of driver managers at piccadilly who could.

 

[EZJ]

Indeed.. but sure there was plenty of driver managers at piccadilly who could.

Now that would be something to see

 

[Driverme10]

I wonder if Chiltern would consider taking the MK5 on? They operate some locomotive hauled services already, and gives some flexibility to the fleet.

Highly likely. They have agreed to keep 68s till at least 28. Fitted new hvo fueling systems and are currently trialling noise reduction measures. Staff are trained. Also was stated in a recent circular (along with information about tender for dmus) that they were looking for options to replace the mk3s (didnt mention locos). Not sure how many other coaches are available to them but it's certainly probable.

 

[PennineSuperb]

Indeed.. but sure there was plenty of driver managers at piccadilly who could.

There is only a very small pool of less than 10 TPE managers who are competent to manually couple/uncouple in an emergency.

TPE get round this because essentially, once the Driver declares the train a failure, under the network code it is Network Rail’s responsibility to clear Mainline as soon as practically possible.

 

[JonathanH]

There is a move scheduled tomorrow from Longsight to Crewe South Yard, and subsequent move from there to Gresty Bridge depot. Seems likely that this will be a Mark 5 set for storage.

5Q42 0957 Longsight T.M.D. (D) to Crewe South Yard
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K06260/2023-08-31/detailed

0B42 1202 Crewe South Yard to Crewe Gresty Bridge (Drs)
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:R06667/2023-08-31/detailed

Previous recent moves reported on gen groups saw TP03 go over to Crewe South Yard on Monday 28 August, TP12 go from Scarborough to Crewe South Yard on Tuesday 22 August and TP06 go from Doncaster to Crewe South Yard on Saturday 19 August although there was a move in the Longsight direction today, and TP12 has already been back in service.

Are moves to Crewe South Yard just a mechanism to get the coaching sets out of the way, rather than longer term storage?

I think it is TP01 and TP09 that are the two which haven't seen recent passenger use.

 

[duffers2324]

Funnily enough this was being mentioned at the bothy at Edinburgh Waverley today. A driver heard it from a shunter who heard it from a fitter who heard it from his auntie that ScotRail were getting the Mk.Vs (no mention if they'd be on the Fife Cirles).

This is what i thought as an idea when i heard about the 68's and Mk5a's being withdrawn from TPE, send a few up here to complement the equally disastrous introduction of the HST's up here and use them for Inter7City services seeing as Scotrail already has had experience with the Cl68's and would mean 2 poorly used fleets merged together to somehow salvage some pride.............sarcasm

 

[43055]

What are the current diagrams for the 68's and mk5's and are they fairly reliable?

 

[Peter Sarf]

There is a move scheduled tomorrow from Longsight to Crewe South Yard, and subsequent move from there to Gresty Bridge depot. Seems likely that this will be a Mark 5 set for storage.

5Q42 0957 Longsight T.M.D. (D) to Crewe South Yard
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K06260/2023-08-31/detailed

0B42 1202 Crewe South Yard to Crewe Gresty Bridge (Drs)
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:R06667/2023-08-31/detailed

Previous recent moves reported on gen groups saw TP03 go over to Crewe South Yard on Monday 28 August, TP12 go from Scarborough to Crewe South Yard on Tuesday 22 August and TP06 go from Doncaster to Crewe South Yard on Saturday 19 August although there was a move in the Longsight direction today, and TP12 has already been back in service.

Are moves to Crewe South Yard just a mechanism to get the coaching sets out of the way, rather than longer term storage?

I think it is TP01 and TP09 that are the two which haven't seen recent passenger use.

First RTT entry now showing as cancelled. But I am sure what I want will end up hiding at Crewe sooner or later.

At last something to digest. I have been working up this spread sheet for a while. Now that more Mk5s are in use I rushed to finish it. Of course it now looks like the fleet could be grounded temporarily (or permanently).

I have taken some care but there is plenty of scope for errors. There is even more scope for the real theory that I am working from not reflecting any reality on any particular day/week/month.


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Bit of an eye sight test for the first table - Scarborough services.

Seems from posts on here that :-
1) The Cleethorpes Mk5 services will come to an end from 28/07/2023. So my expectation that there will be two Mk5 services on the South TPE by the end of 2023 seem wildly optimistic.
2) Sets are being pulled for tests for cracks. This is being done daily at Longsight so I don't see how Scarborough can let any out. Goodness knows what the reality will be - maybe two or three sets can be turned out from Longsight daily. Probably all 185 more likely !.

Enjoy and/or Discuss !.

---

It was supposed to be 5B64, 1B64, 1B85 then 5H85 parts of the two planned Mk5 diagrams.

+

What are the current diagrams for the 68's and mk5's and are they fairly reliable?

See above. That was my latest effort.

Forget Cleethorpes - only Scarborough now.

Mk5s were never 100% certain to show up and I fear the substitutions by 185s (or thin air) will be getting more frequent now the Mk5s days are numbered.

I recommend York with a trip to Scarborough if needs be - there can be four at Scarborough during parts of the day, probably more likely if a service one is cancelled. I have a vague plan to do it with two over night coach trips to Leeds (from & to London) and £3 bus to York and/or Scarborough. Rather slow but guaranteed to be cheap and still work if there are strikes (when Scarborough might house more). Weekdays best and note one set of services does not do a full day on Monday. Time running out !.

 

[Bornin1980s]

They were strange trains. How did they think they could save time and money with an untested concept? Same applies to the 769.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

They were strange trains. How did they think they could save time and money with an untested concept?

What was untested about the concept? We've been using push-pull locomotive hauled trains in this country since the 1970s haven't we?

I'd say the flaw was in the execution - not the principle.

 

[Richard Scott]

What was untested about the concept? We've been using push-pull locomotive hauled trains in this country since the 1970s haven't we?

I'd say the flaw was in the execution - not the principle.

Also very common on the continent so not as if something new?

 

[4630]

What was untested about the concept? We've been using push-pull locomotive hauled trains in this country since the 1970s haven't we?

I'd say the flaw was in the execution - not the principle.

As far as diesel push-pull is concerned, since the mid-1960s with BR(S) TC stock and class 33/1s.

Agreed about the flaw - the execution. Which no doubt a few rolling stock designers and engineers have some thoughts about.

 

[Purple Train]

Tremendous waste of money, but not surprising in all honesty. The Mk5 coaches offer a worse passenger experience than the 185s and the 68s suffer from the same issue as the 67s - heavy freight locomotives that aren't really suited either to high-speed operations or to journeys with frequent stops. I'd have thought they would work for a secondary route like York-Scarborough, but history will ultimately reach a different verdict. Shame.

At least they have been a return to the "retro" concept of push-pull loco-hauled trains - loco-hauled relief trains next?