TPE ticket policy

[yorkie]

Can anyone shed any light on north TPEs ticket policy?

On South TPE they often play the announcement saying they will sell Standard Day/Open tickets on board.

However I've never heard this on north TPE and a guard REFUSED to sell a ticket to a woman when she asked for one between York and Leeds. He did not appear to have his ticket machine with him. He told her she was "comitting an offence" by asking to buy on board. I felt sorry for her as she was humiliated on a very busy train.

I was too shocked to say anything. (Also shocked when I realised I used to know this guard when I was a kid! He didn't recognise me though. All I'll say is he is probably York based and supports Arsenal )

Looking back I should really have told her not to worry as she wasn't comitting an offence, but I was just too shocked to say anything.

 

[theblackwatch]

If a guard refuses to sell a ticket like that, the simple answer is just to put your wallet or purse away! Money saved surely?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

..... and a guard REFUSED to sell a ticket to a woman when she asked for one between York and Leeds. He did not appear to have his ticket machine with him. He told her she was "comitting an offence" by asking to buy on board. I felt sorry for her as she was humiliated on a very busy train....

....Looking back I should really have told her not to worry as she wasn't comitting an offence, but I was just too shocked to say anything.

Technically, yes she is (unless there is a sign at York saying passengers can buy tickets on-board, or she was told to by an authorised person), but TPE policy (for all its services) says that guards should issue a SOR/SDR to those who are without ticket, with no discounts, if they board the train at a station where ticket facilities are available. Where they are not available, a full range of tickets must be offered.

In ths case, as he had no machine to issue tickets, I can only assume he was attempting to make her look small and intimidate her. I hope she complained at Leeds.

If a guard refuses to sell a ticket like that, the simple answer is just to put your wallet or purse away! Money saved surely?

Simplistic I suppose, but given that displaying your money in public is never wise, what other choice was she given.

 

[Andy]

I was too shocked to say anything. (Also shocked when I realised I used to know this guard when I was a kid! He didn't recognise me though. All I'll say is he is probably York based and supports Arsenal )

Looking back I should really have told her not to worry as she wasn't comitting an offence, but I was just too shocked to say anything.

Your not normally one for being quite, were there no forkes about. :grin:

Regarding TPE, it says somewhere. You can always buy tickets of some description (any tickets, if the ticket office is closed) on board.

It is probally the case, that the guard could not be arsed to walk back to the back cab to get the ticket machine.

 

[yorkie]

Your not normally one for being quite, were there no forkes about. :grin:

Forks are for use on trespassing chavs, not desperate grippers!!!

It is probally the case, that the guard could not be arsed to walk back to the back cab to get the ticket machine.

He should have brought it with him!

 

[1D53]

He should have brought it with him!

If he'd been given one. Certain Toc's are running short of working machines leading to some guards working without a machine leading to a backcab job with guard doing doors only!!

 

[Ben]

Yorkie if this was recent I definitely think you should complain about him not having a Ticket machine with him.

If anything, for security reasons he should be keeping it with him.

 

[1D53]

Yorkie if this was recent I definitely think you should complain about him not having a Ticket machine with him.

If anything, for security reasons he should be keeping it with him.

Not necessarily, in most circumstances a machine would be safe in cab. In some instances train crew are advised to leave the machine in cab if doing door duties in the saloon late at night.

 

[Ben]

Not necessarily, in most circumstances a machine would be safe in cab. In some instances train crew are advised to leave the machine in cab if doing door duties in the saloon late at night.

It has been known for advantix machines to go missing while uards have been doing doors. (Its actually happened a few times in the past year in West Yorks.)

 

[1D53]

It has been known for advantix machines to go missing while uards have been doing doors. (Its actually happened a few times in the past year in West Yorks.)

I know it has, should be no excuse though if the cab is locked and secure, windows closed etc. Was the case a few years back that on the Skipton line crews were instructed to leave machines in the cab due to fears they would be snatched.

 

[RonS]

I travel many miles by rail and I must say that most Conductors are polite and helpful. However some seem to have a strange attitude to the travelling public. Last week I bought a ticket at the booking office after waiting 15 minutes in the queue whilst a person in front of me spent ten minutes asking inane questions about a journey he was making the following week. A family behind me were'nt able to get their tickets. On the train he charged them extra because the booking office was open. I could not believe his attitude. Some of them need a lesson in customer relations.

 

[Ben]

I travel many miles by rail and I must say that most Conductors are polite and helpful. However some seem to have a strange attitude to the travelling public. Last week I bought a ticket at the booking office after waiting 15 minutes in the queue whilst a person in front of me spent ten minutes asking inane questions about a journey he was making the following week. A family behind me were'nt able to get their tickets. On the train he charged them extra because the booking office was open. I could not believe his attitude. Some of them need a lesson in customer relations.

Im sorry Ron but the rules do clearly state you must allow as much time as possible to purchase your tickets before boarding.

He was doing his job 100% correctly.

Ben.

 

[yorkie]

Ben, 15 minutes is more than enough time. How long do YOU leave? half an hour?!

 

[glynn80]

This is a big issue about how long is long enough to arrive at a station before hand to purchase your ticket. There is no official line other than their "target" of 3 minutes off-peak and 5 minutes peak time, this though will not be enough to save you from for example a Penalty Fare which just state you must leave "enough" time but never state how long this is, I feel this really does need to be cleared up by ATOC at some point.

 

[David]

The conductor could have handled it better, but it is their rules. You must have a valid ticket if boarding at a station where there is ticket facilities available.

Now if someone from the family had approached the conductor before they boarded and explained why they didn't have tickets, then asked if they could buy on board, chances are the conductor would have said no problem. I've had to do this several times in the past.

 

[furryfeet]

i agree whole heartedly with yorkie - the guideline times stated above are not being met, then there MUST be the flexibility of buying on board as if the booking office was closed.
What was the station porter doing ?
Did he not see that the booking office queue was taking too long and advise the guard accordingly, or tell the passengers to buy on board ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
ATOC do need to tell the train operators that if the guidelines are not being met, then the passengers can buy on board.
This whole grey area of "opportunity of buying before boarding" needs to be cleared up.
At present, the train operators are getting away with it because of the lack of regulation.

What if the passenger gets on a train where there are no booking facilities and cannot buy a ticket on board because
a) the guard cannot be bothered ( as hinted above )
b) his ticket machine is faulty
c) the train is too packed for him to get though and sell tickets.

Then the passenger changes trains, at a station with an open booking office.
What are his rights on THAT train, since he started his journey at a journey where there were no booking facilities available.

Should the transport dept will write the guideline rules into the franchise agreements, so that they become legally binding ?

 

[dan_atki]

What if the passenger gets on a train where there are no booking facilities and cannot buy a ticket on board because
a) the guard cannot be bothered ( as hinted above )
b) his ticket machine is faulty
c) the train is too packed for him to get though and sell tickets.

Then the passenger changes trains, at a station with an open booking office.
What are his rights on THAT train, since he started his journey at a journey where there were no booking facilities available.

I've been in both a) and c) and in c) I fought my way through the train to get to him hiding in the rear cab just to buy a ticket.

I accept that with a) it is a slightly different case with a Priv because it takes them quite a while to set that ticket up compared to a standard non-discounted CDR and most of the time especially for short journeys they can't be bothered with it.

Depending on the situation in a) my fare was waived completely, but if you're finishing at an unmanned station then it's tough I guess - lost revenue if they can't be bothered to sell you one.

In c) when the guard emerged he told me he didn't have time either and to buy it at the ticket office at the destination - which funnily enough was also closed when I arrived...

I guess that would be the same situation in b) go to the excess fare window upon arrival and explain to them the situation.

Regarding changing trains, well it would depend on the time of connection I guess - again another cloudy area. If you have a 45 minute wait then it's not unreasonable to assume that there was ample opportunity to buy a ticket.

Saying that, though, there have been occasions I have queued up for half an hour before and yes, I let trains go in the meantime that I could use but don't because of the mindset I have about people boarding trains without tickets where facilities exist (whether there is a long queue or not) - that's just me though.

In such situations, asking the guard *before* boarding the (connecting) train normally does the trick - shows you're willing to pay and if they say no they can't charge you the full fare then!

 

[Ben]

Ben, 15 minutes is more than enough time. How long do YOU leave? half an hour?!

To be honest - 10 minutes.

In any case Huddersfield is hardly the busiest ticket office & the revenue protection team on the barrier are always more than happy to sell any available ticket from an advantix.

 

[yorkie]

To be honest - 10 minutes.

In any case Huddersfield is hardly the busiest ticket office & the revenue protection team on the barrier are always more than happy to sell any available ticket from an advantix.

I rest my case...

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The NCoC says you can buy your ticket on board the train if there was no ticket office or ticket buying facilities at the station where you started your journey.

There is no mention of ticket offices on stations where you are connecting to another train in the NCoC, presumably because they assume you can get it on your first train.

 

[Max]

I recently had a rather unpleasant experience with a Northern guard in the Tyne-Tees area. I was catching a morning train from Billingham to Thornaby, to change onto a train to Darlington. Billingham is an unstaffed station, and therefore I couldn't purchase my ticket before boarding the train. Additionally, I had just come from the local Holiday Inn Express hotel by taxi and therefore had no chance to get to the cash machine to withdraw cash. Since Visa is a perfectly valid payment method, I thought I would be fine. I had occassionally had problems using the card on the train before, but had phoned my bank and had been reassured that it was simply a glitch on the system, and there was nothing wrong with my card.

On the train, I requested a Billingham-Darlington SDS with YP discount, however, when attempting to pay with my Visa card, the machine simply declined the card, which I frankly couldn't understand because I had sufficient guard. I had no cash, but the guard was persistent, and accused me of purposely boarding a train without a suitable means of payment. I replied that my Visa card was a suitable payment method, and that the bank had told me that it was nothing to do with my card, and more to do with the machines carried on trains, and since Billingham was an unstaffed station I had no choice but to pay on the train. However, the guard continued to accuse me of trying to avoid paying my fare, to which I asked him to stop making rude accusations. I refused to give my address - I wasn't going to be treat like some criminal, and I said I would purchase my ticket at Thornaby. For no good reason, he then said he was calling the BTP. Frankly, such a threat was totally unneccessary, and rather embaressing, I didn't deserve to be treat like this!

I left the train at Thornaby and went straight to the booking office to buy a ticket. The guard acually followed me, phone in hand (but I have no idea who he was calling), and actually delayed his train just to watch me! I bought my ticket at Thornaby with my Visa card with no problem at all. I asked for an apology from the guard, but he simply said that he 'didn't like my attitude' and skulked off back to the train.

I plan to change bank accounts in the next few days, because I cannot risk such problems and embaressement again. And as for the guard on Northern, his behaviour was totally out of order.

I haven't made a complaint, do you think its worth making one?

 

[Ben]

If your Card Issuer has said your Card is fine then yeah definitely.

 

[rail-britain]

I haven't made a complaint, do you think its worth making one?

Yes, clearly there is something wrong with their payment system if you are unable to purchase on-train but can purchase off-train
I suspect the OLA file on-train is out of date

 

[glynn80]

I haven't made a complaint, do you think its worth making one?

I would advise against complaining due to the fact you declined to give your name and address to the guard which if they request and you refuse is a criminal offence in itself, so if questioned the guard may reveal this (even if you failed to mention it in your complaint) and there could be further consequences for yourself

 

[yorkie]

I suppose the question is, "If a guard fails to follow the rules and give his name, am I still compelled, legally, to give my name?" I would hope the answer is "no" because there should not be one rule for one and one rule for another, however I don't honestly know the answer to that question.

 

[nedchester]

I would advise against complaining due to the fact you declined to give your name and address to the guard which if they request and you refuse is a criminal offence in itself, so if questioned the guard may reveal this (even if you failed to mention it in your complaint) and there could be further consequences for yourself

I believe that you are only required to give your name and address if you have committed an offence. You hadn't committed an offence as you had tried to pay!!!

And seeing as you were in the right I don't think that anything would come of your lack of willingness to give your name.

Why is it the railway treats everybody like criminals?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....On the train, I requested a Billingham-Darlington SDS with YP discount, however, when attempting to pay with my Visa card, the machine simply declined the card, which I frankly couldn't understand because I had sufficient guard. I had no cash, but the guard was persistent, and accused me of purposely boarding a train without a suitable means of payment. I replied that my Visa card was a suitable payment method, and that the bank had told me that it was nothing to do with my card, and more to do with the machines carried on trains, and since Billingham was an unstaffed station I had no choice but to pay on the train....

....For no good reason, he then said he was calling the BTP. Frankly, such a threat was totally unneccessary, and rather embaressing, I didn't deserve to be treat like this!

I left the train at Thornaby and went straight to the booking office to buy a ticket. The guard acually followed me, phone in hand (but I have no idea who he was calling), and actually delayed his train just to watch me! I bought my ticket at Thornaby with my Visa card with no problem at all. I asked for an apology from the guard, but he simply said that he 'didn't like my attitude' and skulked off back to the train....

....I haven't made a complaint, do you think its worth making one?

Its the old story of deciding if someone is genuinely trying to pay or is deliberately trying to avoid paying (what if you knew the card would be 'declined').

I am led to believe this is a wider issue than just one bank/card issuer and is almost certainly the ticket machine's interface with the banks.

As for a complaint.....Try a well worded correspondence, I don't think Northern will try to bring up charges against you for not providing your details, especially as you paid for your journey at the next available opportunity, but they need to know about that guard and the problems encountered with the machines. Maybe the guard got out of the wrong side of the bed, maybe not, in any case I suggest you tell Northern about it.

 

[First class]

"You do not have to say anything, but anything you do say may be used as evidence, if you do not say, when questioned, something you later rely on in court".

I would make a complaint. You actually haven't done anything wrong, the train company is responsible for ensuring their ticket issuing facilities work, and you are not legally obliged to provide your name or address. I would have let him call BTP and I think you will find nothing would have happened to you.

Bit of advice to you all, especially re: penalty fares. They caution you for a reason, keep your mouth shut, provide them with details if you want, as long as they're genuine.
You will still receive the penalty fare, (assuming your details check out), but it's much harder for them to twist your words or use your words against you if you decide to appeal. AND NEVER PAY THE PENALTY FARE UP FRONT!!!

Just realised this is an old post... sorry got here through an old link...

 

[glynn80]

I suppose the question is, "If a guard fails to follow the rules and give his name, am I still compelled, legally, to give my name?" I would hope the answer is "no" because there should not be one rule for one and one rule for another, however I don't honestly know the answer to that question.

Power to Demand/Remove (Bye-law 3)
A person reasonably suspected of contravening or attempting to contravene any of the bye-laws, shall give their name and address to any authorised person (railway employee or police officer) when requested to do so and may be removed from the railway by any authorised person

So it seems if you are suspected of breaking a railway bye-law then you must give your name and address. And in this case the guard did have reason to believe a bye-law was being broken or attempting to be broken and thus he was probably in the right (or at least he could hold up his argument in court)

 

[First class]

Power to Demand/Remove (Bye-law 3)
A person reasonably suspected of contravening or attempting to contravene any of the bye-laws, shall give their name and address to any authorised person (railway employee or police officer) when requested to do so and may be removed from the railway by any authorised person

So it seems if you are suspected of breaking a railway bye-law then you must give your name and address. And in this case the guard did have reason to believe a bye-law was being broken or attempting to be broken and thus he was probably in the right (or at least he could hold up his argument in court)

I'm sure that is a valid byelaw... it comes down to 'reasonable' though.

Is is really reasonable to ask someone's name and address when they have genuinely attempted to pay?

They cannot make you provide such details, and if you refuse, BTP will probably turn up- but that, in my opinion, is more likely to help you... BTP are more experienced with such matters than a guard.