Train Dispatch rules

[43066]

The definition we've always worked on the basis of at my TOC is simply "A signal at the end of the platform, or close enough to the platform that the train has not fully cleared the platform when stopped at it". Of course, it's one of those typical railway that's the rule except when it isn't situations - we have one platform where the normal formation that works that route can clear the platform when stopped at it, but a longer train wouldn't be clear. That signal isn't considered a starting signal.

And then we have a couple where the signal is well off the end of the platform (over 300m) but there is an off indicator on the platform and guards are not expected to dispatch unless that indicator is lit. Because of the distance and sighting on that one, drivers are told to expect it to be displaying a red even though the guard is expected to have checked the off indicator - so it's a starting signal for the guard but not the driver.

However, one thing we have always worked on, consistently, is defining to traincrew what is and isn't a starting signal, and that definition is included in all route learning materials. Demonstrating understanding of where you're expected to check the signal aspect as a guard is a crucial part of our route assessments.

At my last place, I could be dispatched against two yellows, and have the back couple of carriages still in the platform when I stopped at the red, in a 12 car (London Bridge - there are mid platform signals there, too. Don’t get me started on those. I’d refuse to enter the platform on less than 2 yellows. That sat better with some DMs than others. The sensible ones agreed with me haha).

Totally agree with your earlier comments. TOCs’ operational standards departments should be all over this kind of thing. I’ve never been given a clear definition of a “starting signal”.

The six on the bell thing described above, or the “slow two”? Nope. That’s a complete and utter fudge. Traincrew worth their salt should be refusing this kind of thing.

 

[Tomnick]

It is really quite worrying to see such a difference between different TOCs who ultimately work to the same Rule Book! I do think there’s a wider issue here than just dispatching towards (not against) a red - what happens when one TOCs train fails and is being assisted (but otherwise worked forward normally) by another’s? What about TOC-specific rules for, e.g., flooding where speed restrictions apply in situations where the Rule Book says normal working - how does the Signalman know that the Driver needs to be advised?

It’s definitely a myth that the delay will be attributed differently depending on whether the train waits in the platform for the signal to clear, or draws up to the signal to wait there. Either way, it’s waiting for the signal to clear and it’ll be attributed accordingly.

I can’t believe for a second that any Guard would be seriously implicated in a SPAD investigation for dispatching towards a red - not a platform starter - using (correctly) 2 instead of 6. I appreciate that it’s probably intended as a helpful reminder to the Driver, and I understand that’s where it has its origins? I’m always grateful for Guards who give helpful little reminders here and there (e.g. timely announcements approaching the braking point for ‘unusual’ stops!), but this is the driver’s risk to manage ultimately, though, and the risk is that the Driver becomes accustomed to receiving 6 and thus completely overlooks the signal on the one occasion that they have a Guard who gives them 2 instead.

(London Bridge - there are mid platform signals there, too. Don’t get me started on those. I’d refuse to enter the platform on less than 2 yellows. That sat better with some DMs than others. The sensible ones agreed with me haha).

Isn’t the point of the closing-up signals at London Bridge that you won’t be allowed to approach them until the previous train’s proved to be on its way out of the platform, to get the next train into the platform a precious few seconds more quickly, so you shouldn’t be stopped at them? Thus hanging back for YY completely defeats the object! No criticism intended, just curious as that’s how I’d understood them to work. We have a similar dilemma with the mid platform signals at Manchester Oxford Road - if the starter’s at danger, the mid platform signal won’t clear until you’re already halfway into the platform, but some drivers (from various different TOCs) seem to hang back until they’ve got the road all the way in, which can mean waiting outside the platform for a good minute or two even on a good day!

 

[43066]

Isn’t the point of the closing-up signals at London Bridge that you won’t be allowed to approach them until the previous train’s proved to be on its way out of the platform, to get the next train into the platform a precious few seconds more quickly, so you shouldn’t be stopped at them? Thus hanging back for YY completely defeats the object! No criticism intended, just curious as that’s how I’d understood them to work. We have a similar dilemma with the mid platform signals at Manchester Oxford Road - if the starter’s at danger, the mid platform signal won’t clear until you’re already halfway into the platform, but some drivers (from various different TOCs) seem to hang back until they’ve got the road all the way in, which can mean waiting outside the platform for a good minute or two even on a good day!

No criticism taken from that at all. You’re exactly right - that’s the theory behind the LB signalling. But, those signals work the same as any others. There is no “proving” the previous train has left the platform. If you enter the platform on a single yellow, and the train ahead of you has an issue there is the possibility of being stopped at the mid platform signal, with a train full of commuters who won’t hesitate to pull an egress and then you’re in a world of pain!

I fully admit I’m a bit of a conservative “driving miss daisy” when it comes to trains, and was laughed at by many colleagues at my last TOC. But i kept a clean record.

That exact approach is why I now get to do proper intercity type work. 15 stops in a shift feels like a lot of work. When I get a call from the guard, it’s to ask how I want my toast cooked, and how many sugars I’d like in my coffee. My former colleagues are still doing the class 2 shzzle, 100 station DOO stops per day.

Guess whose laughing now.

 

[the sniper]

The six on the bell thing described above, or the “slow two”? Nope. That’s a complete and utter fudge. Traincrew worth their salt should be refusing this kind of thing.

Why would it bother you whether you got a quick two or a longer two? You got two as per the rule book, so drive Parker!

 

[DorkingMain]

Why would it bother you whether you got a quick two or a longer two? You got two as per the rule book, so drive Parker!

You can tell a lot about someone by how they give two on the bell

 

[43066]

Why would it bother you whether you got a quick two or a longer two? You got two as per the rule book, so drive Parker!

Haha HSTs require a “slow” two on the bell. Otherwise it can merge into one. And that is not good. My technique is to release the brakes, put it into forward, take power notch one, give two back, while looking for the amps to rise, look out the side window to ensure it moves forward. Then notch up progressively as the engine stabilises. Doing that is pretty much better than anything I’ve done with my clothes on.

As a general point, I agree. This particular driver organ grinder runs a tight ship, and expects a quick two on the bell from his guard monkey, before he takes power (JOKE)...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2020 ==

You can tell a lot about someone by how they give two on the bell

So true.

*i cannot believe I’m being paid to do this for a living; it’s something I’d pay good money to do lol.

 

[the sniper]

I'll have you know I produce Twos very consistently. I'm also very consistent on the buzzer.

 

[43066]

I'll have you know I produce Twos very consistently. I'm also very consistent on the buzzer.

Not interested in your toilet habits, I’m afraid. You’re not my girlfriend (no comment on whether I’m interested in her’s at times).

 

[the sniper]

 

[43066]

This chat is turning proper railway haha.

 

[PennineSuperb]

11 coach lengths cannot reasonably be classed as a “starting signal”, surely? That’s what the DRA is for, at the end of the day. The guard shouldn’t be doing the driver’s job for them.

If I SPAD having been given two against a red starter (or if I commit a dispatch irregularity by leaving on two against a green, vice RA, at my London terminal) that’s all on me.

Is there an official definition of a starting signal anywhere?

EDIT: and none of this stuff should be TOC specific. That’s the whole point of having a rulebook!

A signal is defined by GE/RT 8037 as a platform starting signal if either:
a) the longest passenger (or empty coaching stock) train authorised to
use the platform would, if stopped at the signal, still have a portion of the passenger accommodation alongside the platform,
or
b) the leading end of the train passes over the Automatic Warning System (AWS) equipment associated with the signal before it is dispatched from the station.

 

[LowLevel]

As a general point, I agree. This particular driver organ grinder runs a tight ship, and expects a quick two on the bell from his guard monkey, before he takes power (JOKE)...

This stalwart of the rear of the train expects a sharp takeoff from his chauffeur when dinging those bells, though he is attempting to keep to time on a suburban service most of the time with asthmatic, superannuated 1980s junk

It's amazing how well a 158 can shift with the right bod in the seat!

As for the original subject I've said it before and I've said it again, the rulebook states that to dispatch from a manned or unmanned platform with guard and bell buzzer you use the ready to start signal and that is 2. As I've explained before we have a number of signals that can catch the driver out and that is part of their route knowledge to mitigate, the guard's job is not to assist the driver in the technical side of driving the train unless in a scenario defined by the rulebook in the case of equipment failure. If anything taking any action to prompt the driver that might disturb their normal routine should be absolutely avoided - the exception being I always announce Edale as soon as we emerge from Cowburn Tunnel. An ESR finishes just inside, you get a green on the distant immediately outside and we only stop there once a day in each direction. I've been told by various drivers that the PA handset lighting up is a useful mental reminder to ignore all of those usual cues to put the power on hard as you accelerate to 90 normally.

We have some tricky starters - Newark Northgate platform 3 heading north is one - if you have a 15x it is very many carriage lengths away and nestled between overhead line masts and 2 other signals. However it is a permissive platform and it is therefore critical that you get it right. The signal beyond it is a SPAD trap that usually clears on approach but sometimes doesn't.

 

[Right Away]

I'm not bothered by delay mins. If I'm responsible I'll justify them. I did mention earlier that I'm quite happy to sit in the platform and wait the road but stations like Worle on the down the signal won't clear for WSM unless you occupy the approach track to the signal so waiting in the platform won't do.

The signal in the down direction at Worle will clear if the route is set across the junction (and the section is clear) when the train crosses over the block joint about 10 metres before the end of the platform. The stop marker boards for all trains are found beyond this joint. Therefore if the signal stays red when the train has stopped at the stop marker board, it will be remaining so. Before the stop marker boards were erected, many drivers would pull down to the end of the platform beyond the joint for this very reason. The signal in the up direction is different as it protects Puxton level crossing and will only clear when the crossing barriers have been lowered. However, neither signal are starting signals so once station duties are complete the RA should be given as per the rule book.

 

[O L Leigh]

I can’t believe for a second that any Guard would be seriously implicated in a SPAD investigation for dispatching towards a red - not a platform starter - using (correctly) 2 instead of 6. I appreciate that it’s probably intended as a helpful reminder to the Driver, and I understand that’s where it has its origins? I’m always grateful for Guards who give helpful little reminders here and there (e.g. timely announcements approaching the braking point for ‘unusual’ stops!), but this is the driver’s risk to manage ultimately, though, and the risk is that the Driver becomes accustomed to receiving 6 and thus completely overlooks the signal on the one occasion that they have a Guard who gives them 2 instead.

+1

My own feeling is that there's an awful lot of worrying going on down at the back of the train that probably isn't necessary. As long as the guard doesn't give 2 against a red there's nothing else for them to be worrying about. All of the other situations are down to the driver being able to recall the aspect of the last signal and to focus ahead to see the aspect of the next signal. That said, I do appreciate the concerns of the guards grade about helping out the driver and doing what they can to prevent an incident.

There had been a lot of discussion about a notice saying that Down trains at Cambridge could be dispatched from P1 on a single yellow at the middle signal towards the red at the end of P4, and quite a few experienced guards were saying that they wouldn't do it. But to my mind it's no different to dispatching anywhere else on a single yellow, such as every train that calls at March on the Down. And then there are the stations you call at where the last signal is single yellow and the next one red, which are sometimes not visible from the platform, which cause very little contention. My own feeling is that 2 on the buzzer is the correct signal for the guard to give and then everything else is the driver's demesne.

As for 6 on the buzzer, this thread has jogged a memory of only once receiving 6 some years ago, although I cannot reliably recall where or under what circumstances (I suspect it was at Ashchurch being dispatched towards the red protecting Northway AHB, though). What I do remember though was being very surprised to have been given 6 instead of 2. I certainly would not expect to get 6 under any normal operating circumstances, even including poor visibility, unusual signalling sequence or signals out of view.

I would concur with whoever it was who said that 6 is not a shunting signal, as I can't really conceive of a situation where a shunting move would be controlled in that manner except where a train is having to be driven from other than the leading cab due to defective controls, for example. In fact I can't really think of many situations out on the mainline where I would expect 6 to be the correct buzzer code. The only one I can come up with so far is if the train needs to be drawn forward towards a handsignaller stationed at a signal at the end of the platform (e.g. controlling the exit from a TBW section) after station duties have been completed.

If your company instructions (by which I mean the written train dispatch policy or local instructions) demands that you use 6 on the buzzer at certain locations then it would be best to stick to that. However, I would be wary of just taking anyone's word for it, even the gaffer's. You may not have to share in the driver's SPAD, but if the worst happens and your actions come under scrutiny from an outside body (RAIB, ORR, HMRI, etc) you may have to account for yourself. Quite a few RAIB investigation reports cite non-standard working as a contributory factor.

 

[XXtadaZ]

That should all have been squashed by your ops standards department. Train dispatch is clearly defined in the rulebook. SS1 says the ready to start signal should be given as per correct bell buzzer codes, the RA indicator if provided or a green hand signal, either a flag or lamp. TW1 defines the "ready to start" bell code as 2. Dispatching a train from a platform, as opposed to repositioning it, using anything other than 2 bells is a breach of the rules, whether it's one that has snuck in unofficially or not.

This is an issue with different regions unfortunately. I've only had Exeter guards give me six (either way is crazy due to the distance to be honest). Yet Gloucester, Bristol and Westbury guards all give two.

I've always wondered why they allow one depot to do a six instead, as a guard years ago I gave two and had a driver refuse to take it until I gave a six.

Classic railway, you'd never get away with causing delays and costing companies money like that anywhere else.

 

[LowLevel]

+1

My own feeling is that there's an awful lot of worrying going on down at the back of the train that probably isn't necessary. As long as the guard doesn't give 2 against a red there's nothing else for them to be worrying about. All of the other situations are down to the driver being able to recall the aspect of the last signal and to focus ahead to see the aspect of the next signal. That said, I do appreciate the concerns of the guards grade about helping out the driver and doing what they can to prevent an incident.

There had been a lot of discussion about a notice saying that Down trains at Cambridge could be dispatched from P1 on a single yellow at the middle signal towards the red at the end of P4, and quite a few experienced guards were saying that they wouldn't do it. But to my mind it's no different to dispatching anywhere else on a single yellow, such as every train that calls at March on the Down. And then there are the stations you call at where the last signal is single yellow and the next one red, which are sometimes not visible from the platform, which cause very little contention. My own feeling is that 2 on the buzzer is the correct signal for the guard to give and then everything else is the driver's demesne.

As for 6 on the buzzer, this thread has jogged a memory of only once receiving 6 some years ago, although I cannot reliably recall where or under what circumstances (I suspect it was at Ashchurch being dispatched towards the red protecting Northway AHB, though). What I do remember though was being very surprised to have been given 6 instead of 2. I certainly would not expect to get 6 under any normal operating circumstances, even including poor visibility, unusual signalling sequence or signals out of view.

I would concur with whoever it was who said that 6 is not a shunting signal, as I can't really conceive of a situation where a shunting move would be controlled in that manner except where a train is having to be driven from other than the leading cab due to defective controls, for example. In fact I can't really think of many situations out on the mainline where I would expect 6 to be the correct buzzer code. The only one I can come up with so far is if the train needs to be drawn forward towards a handsignaller stationed at a signal at the end of the platform (e.g. controlling the exit from a TBW section) after station duties have been completed.

If your company instructions (by which I mean the written train dispatch policy or local instructions) demands that you use 6 on the buzzer at certain locations then it would be best to stick to that. However, I would be wary of just taking anyone's word for it, even the gaffer's. You may not have to share in the driver's SPAD, but if the worst happens and your actions come under scrutiny from an outside body (RAIB, ORR, HMRI, etc) you may have to account for yourself. Quite a few RAIB investigation reports cite non-standard working as a contributory factor.

3 scenarios I've used 6:

1. Arriving at a station and being told that due to disruption the train needs to draw up with passengers still on board to allow another to arrive behind. Driver got permission for the move, dispatcher instructed me to shut the doors and as we were drawing up the platform but not departing I gave 6 bells when I was ready to move.

2. Arriving at a station with a Harrington Hump with an unexpected wheelchair user at the station. I came to an understanding with the driver, gave him 6 to start drawing up and 1 when I was in the right place to deploy the wheelchair ramp.

3. The driver stopped short and I couldn't get hold of him for love nor money on the cab to cab. I resorted to trying 6 bells (which I technically shouldn't have without discussing the move first but it was a while ago) and he got the idea and was most apologetic.

Very unusual though.

 

[O L Leigh]

3 scenarios I've used 6:

1. Arriving at a station and being told that due to disruption the train needs to draw up with passengers still on board to allow another to arrive behind. Driver got permission for the move, dispatcher instructed me to shut the doors and as we were drawing up the platform but not departing I gave 6 bells when I was ready to move.

2. Arriving at a station with a Harrington Hump with an unexpected wheelchair user at the station. I came to an understanding with the driver, gave him 6 to start drawing up and 1 when I was in the right place to deploy the wheelchair ramp.

3. The driver stopped short and I couldn't get hold of him for love nor money on the cab to cab. I resorted to trying 6 bells (which I technically shouldn't have without discussing the move first but it was a while ago) and he got the idea and was most apologetic.

Very unusual though.

Yup. So limited moves within the length of the platform. All sounds good to me.