Train dispatch

[Peter Mugridge]

The only way to prevent the driver starting against a red is to not commence despatching until the signal has cleared. In fact, this instruction is stated as something you "must" do and is highlighted in a red box in the relevant section of the Rules (SS1 Section 6).

Having actually observed a classic case of a "ding ding and away" SPAD at a very busy and important station ( I am not going to say which one ) in the summer of 2007 I would agree with this statement; all parties must check the signal before starting the procedure. Otherwise, even with the DRA equipment, it is all too easy to just run through the whole procedure and then...!!

In the case I observed, at least it proved that the TPWS worked... Nevertheless, there was still a lot of rushing around and hurried phone calls involving the station staff, the train crew and the phone on the signal in question. Only about one carriage length had gone past the signal; on that occasion the train was allowed to proceed after a delay of about 10 minutes, which did surprise me somewhat - I had expected to see some serious delays develop.

 

[dviner]

Hang on, can I clarify something here - why would a driver take authority to proceed from the TM/guard over a red aspect? Honest question.

 

[scotsman]

Hang on, can I clarify something here - why would a driver take authority to proceed from the TM/guard over a red aspect? Honest question.

Not paying attention.

 

[O L Leigh]

Cognitive error. You get two on the bell/buzzer and off you go because that's what you always do. It has happened before.

O L Leigh

 

[yorkie]

Hang on, can I clarify something here - why would a driver take authority to proceed from the TM/guard over a red aspect? Honest question.

Perhaps the most well-known incidents of this nature occurred at Bellgrove and Newton, both in the Glasgow suburban area. The risk has been reduced due to changes in procedures and also the widespread introduction of TPWS.

 

[CarterUSM]

I'm pretty sure Newton wasn't a "ding ding and away". It was certainly a SASSPAD by the DOO service though. What Bellgrove and Newton had in common was the single lead junction layout. Paisley Gilmour St was a "ding ding and away" , but at the time of that accident, the guard belled the driver after station duties were complete and took no notice of the aspect displayed as signals were the sole responsibility of the driver, with the rules changing some time afterwards.

 

[adamp]

http://www.railnetchannel.tv/avc-view.aspx?videoid=54&categoryid=

Anyone unclear, watch the above

-Adam

 

[HSTfan!!!]

With regard to the op, as far as I've always been aware, as an experienced dispatcher, you have one person in charge of the platform who dispatches the train. Now with long slam door stocks, i.e HST's etc it's perfectly acceptable to acknowledge or even repeat the signal by use of a hand to show the train is safe from where you standing. I would certainly not expect one of my colleagues to raise a second bat as then you have confusion over who is in charge of the platform, who then gets the blame if something goes wrong for example a sasspad? In an ordinary dispatch, certainly the person in charge of the platform/dispatch would be liable regardless of whether it's your colleagues fault. I've certainly never heard of or seen this practice, and I was certainly never taught dispatch that way.
Also, I've certainly been told off for showing a white in dark poor lighting conditions back to the person in charge of dispatch.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The dispatch process should only commence one the signal is "OFF" unless specific arrangements have been made to the contrary to ensure the conductor does not give the driver permission to start against a signal set to danger.

Not entirely true, it's not recommended (thus you probably won't see it practised) but you can start the dispatch process before the signal is OFF. For example, take the scenario you're dispatching on a busy match day, you're dispatching one of many shuttles, you're perfectly within your rights to give the guard the first tip if you deem necessary to prevent excessive overcrowding/safety issues.
It's not until you give the second tip while the signal is still in the on state would you be in error. It's wise to be careful doing this though, there are select guards out there who seem to think as soon as you give them the first tip they can lock up their doors and jump in their cab, give 2 on the buzzer and get going.

 

[Fred26]

I am not aware of any such arrangements. The only way to prevent the driver starting against a red is to not commence despatching until the signal has cleared. In fact, this instruction is stated as something you "must" do and is highlighted in a red box in the relevant section of the Rules (SS1 Section 6).

O L Leigh

It is possible to dispatch (correctly) on a red, but it's only really for wrong road working, single line working (where there's usually at least two lines open), or if the signal has failed. All three need permission from the signalman (obviously) and a MOM needs to be present for the first two.
I'm not sure that's what you meant though.

The dispatch raised in the original post is alien to me, but that doesn't make it wrong. If someone tried that with me, I would be confused, but if that's what the staff are familiar with, then I can't see the problem.

 

[Mojo]

http://www.railnetchannel.tv/avc-view.aspx?videoid=54&categoryid=

Anyone unclear, watch the above

-Adam

That video is a bit weird, why have they made a video for dispatch of LHCS at Liverpool Street only? Many of those features do not apply in other locations (eg. RA signals are not used at all locations).

Also I'm confused in that video, unless things are done differently at Liverpool Street, the TRTS button is pressed after the signal has come off. But the purpose of the TRTS button is to request the signal once the train has been prepared for departure. We used to press it 2 minutes before departure but this varies by location.

Also see this video by FCC about dispatching DOO trains: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj--Y_svMWM.

 

[wensley]

The videp of Liverpool St is very informative but only applies to that location. Standard practice would be to give 2 on the bell instead of the RA indicator would it not?

I take the points regarding my earlier comment and I know of a situation by which the guard was dispatching a slam door train with no help from the platform other than other members of the traincrew. When he deemed it the correct departure time he commence dispatch without checking the signal was "OFF", completed dispatch and gave the driver 2 before realising his mistake. The train started but stopped after the guard buzzed 1, narrowly avoiding a SPAD. When with some traincrew they discussed this incident and their view was that the traincrew at other doors assisting the dispatch sho9uld not have boarded the train and acknowleged the guard until the signal was "OFF", thus preventing him from starting against a red signal. I appreciate that this is different to dispatch with assistance from the platform.

 

[rail-britain]

the guard belled the driver after station duties were complete and took no notice of the aspect displayed as signals

I travelled on many services in the Strathclyde area where this was common
The driver would then return a single bell
Equally, I remember several times the driver opening the drivers door so that the guard was aware the next signal was red

When I worked at Aberdeen a similar incident happened, where the station staff went through all the train preparation procedure in anticipation of the OFF signal
The guard accidently raised his hand to the side of the door, the driver took that as RA, so released the brakes and started heading towards the signal, assuming the station staff had already phoned the signaller
Thankfully the driver stopped short of the signal and then phoned the signaller
However in all that time a late passenger had reopened a door as the train was still completely in the platform, and so the guard had reapplied the brake just to make sure the driver didn't take off!

 

[O L Leigh]

With regard to the op, as far as I've always been aware, as an experienced dispatcher, you have one person in charge of the platform who dispatches the train. Now with long slam door stocks, i.e HST's etc it's perfectly acceptable to acknowledge or even repeat the signal by use of a hand to show the train is safe from where you standing. I would certainly not expect one of my colleagues to raise a second bat as then you have confusion over who is in charge of the platform.

I wouldn't expect to see this except where a platform is curved. Under those circumstances the person in charge of the platform would stand where he/she could see the TM/guard and their assistant further round the corner, but the TM/guard would only be able to see the person in charge of the platform. Therefore it wouldn't really matter if the platform assistant had a bat too because it wouldn't be seen by the TM/guard.

It is possible to dispatch (correctly) on a red, but it's only really for wrong road working, single line working (where there's usually at least two lines open), or if the signal has failed. All three need permission from the signalman (obviously) and a MOM needs to be present for the first two.

If the train has been authorised to pass the platform starting signal at danger then obviously it's fine to despatch the train against the red and you won't get an OFF indicator. In effect under those circumstances the train would be starting off on a single yellow.

O L Leigh

 

[spacehopper]

Dispatch or is it Despatch (First)

Having been dispatched on different regions, I have to say the standards vary from station to station, region to region. On the Southern at some stations they didn't even bother coming out to give you the tip. Or if they did come out, it would be at the last second, lift the bat not even check the signal. Western region was usually to a good standard. Always out on the platform before the train arrived, always gave you the tip from the right position on the platform.

Having started out on the platforms you get a good understanding of how crucial good dispatch is to the safe right time running of the railway. Little things like being on the platform before train arrives, ensuring bikes are at the right end all helps make dispatch go smoothly.

Check and check again! When it comes to signals! On platform or on train, first thing your eyes should fix on is the signal. Got a red, put you dispatch bat away, tuck your whistle in or keep you hands behind your back. Little things that remind you not to start dispatch.

It is so easy to get distracted on the platform- people tugging at you, thousand questions, overcrowded platform, stragglers, late running, diversions, conflicting movements, radio messages, short staffed etc. Being platform staff is like juggling you got to concentrate on so many things at once and not drop the ball.

Having been dispatched from even little rural wayside stations to big mainline termini I now only get the tip from 1 station! Everywhere else its self dispatch. Not something I agree with as it was introduced to cut staffing levels but hey its all being risk assessed so its safe. I'd much rather have a second or third pair of eyes. Think it is worse for the customers as turn up at the station no one on platform to help you especially with connections or booked assistance. The position of some old style OFF indicators on very curved platforms at busy mainline stations- you really have to be alert and know your stations.

I think you'd have to be extremely lucky not to have at least once started dispatch when you shouldn't have. I've been given the tip against the red- both arms in the air, shouted numerous times down platform we've not got the road- only human we all make mistakes. Same as drivers reading across signals it can be so easily done. Had a station manager who wasn't safety critical try and give me the tip against a red, had a virgin manager in high heels dispatch me once!

Each company will have its own way of dispatching as long as it conforms to RGS. Some staff wear high-viz, some staff wear yellow high-viz, some staff use bats, some hand signals. Local instructions say yes you can give 2 against a red at this location, others give 6, others wait for the aspect to change. Wealth of material for dispatch, I once got given a list of every signal that was classified as a remote platform starting signal in that region. Complex dispatch matrix telling everyone where they must be, its all worked out. You get assessed regularly and dispatch is one of the hot things. Have 2 managers stood on some footbridge at some random wayside halt "remotely monitoring" my dispatch. I've seen people lose their jobs because management deemed their dispatch on just one occasion as "unsuitable".

Even yesterday- i had a little kid run up to my train saying I couldn't go as the signal was red, we had cats eyes for the siding. Also had a horizontal signal I couldn't see the aspect of yesterday no matter how close I stood to it the low light and angle of the sun, I just couldn't make it out so had to ring the box and ask what the aspect was showing.

Worst that's happened to me is I've had a signal put back on me. It's been green when I gave 2 but seconds later it was put back- that wasn't a nice feeling to have.

So dispatch for platform staff, a driver and a guard- it is not just green for go, red for stop.

 

[Aictos]

At Peterborough for example when they dispatch East Coast HSTs, they tend to have one person in charge of that platform who has the bat and whistle who's in the middle of the train and have two other dispatchers at either end of the train who raise their arm level with the train to indicate the doors are safely shut at their ends of the train and it is safe for the person in charge to start to dispatch the train.

As to dispatching at Hertford, I don't dispatch with the signal displaying a Red aspect unless of course I am dispatching northbound of course in which local instructions state you can dispatch regardless of the signal as the signal is about 375m to 400m away and the driver might be requested to use the SPT at that signal.

 

[barrykas]

Also I'm confused in that video, unless things are done differently at Liverpool Street, the TRTS button is pressed after the signal has come off. But the purpose of the TRTS button is to request the signal once the train has been prepared for departure. We used to press it 2 minutes before departure but this varies by location.

I think it's down to the editing more than anything. A good close up of one of the Liverpool Street dispatch panels is shown about 3.5 minutes into the video.

You'll notice that the second button down (combined "OFF" indicator and barrier bell button) illuminates immediately the TRTS is pressed, so presumably the signal gets pulled off straight away.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[O L Leigh]

That isn't the OFF indicator, simply an illuminated confirmation that the TRTS has operated correctly.

O L Leigh

 

[Skip 10]

The videp of Liverpool St is very informative but only applies to that location. Standard practice would be to give 2 on the bell instead of the RA indicator would it not?

I take the points regarding my earlier comment and I know of a situation by which the guard was dispatching a slam door train with no help from the platform other than other members of the traincrew. When he deemed it the correct departure time he commence dispatch without checking the signal was "OFF", completed dispatch and gave the driver 2 before realising his mistake. The train started but stopped after the guard buzzed 1, narrowly avoiding a SPAD. When with some traincrew they discussed this incident and their view was that the traincrew at other doors assisting the dispatch sho9uld not have boarded the train and acknowleged the guard until the signal was "OFF", thus preventing him from starting against a red signal. I appreciate that this is different to dispatch with assistance from the platform.

Second bit 1st, are the other members of the traincrew that assisted with the dispatch trained to read signals etc as per the rule book? If I get it wrong leaving a station where the on-board team ie Catering team have assisted and I get it wrong Its my fault, Its upto me to check that the signal is at a proceed aspect and only then can I give the driver right away, unless there is a clear understanding for why I would need to dispatch against a red ie train too long for platform so the loco has had to pass the signal. I would rather anyone who is assisting with dispatch who is a member of the train crew had boarded the train and had the doors shut ASAP. Its one less thing for me to worry about and I can keep my eye on the signal and the clock ready for the off.

1st bit. It depends on the local agreements. Marylebone is prodominently a DOO station and therefore LHCS tends to fit in with the dispatchers usual way of working. Once station duties have been completed and I have signaled to the dipsatcher that my train is locked up and ready to go he will give the RA and we are on our way. The dipatch can involve any number of people to assist and Ive had to dispatchers before now but Ive always come to a clear understanding who is in charge of the dispatch 1st. Wolverhampton, although equiped with RA is always assisted dispatch, ie dispatcher informs me when station duties are complete and I give a buzz buzz to the driver, however if the buzzer is not working then the rulebook says we have to go back to using the RA. Wolves normally has two dispatchers per train and Ive never had more than one bat or lamp shown. Though I would assume in the case of the OP the nearest dispatcher to the guard would be the one in charge and as they where showing each other the bats (dispatchers), all the guard would see is the back of the nearest bat and that would be black so they would not read it as a signal from the dispatcher to the guard. If you get what I mean?.....

 

[HSTfan!!!]

I wouldn't expect to see this except where a platform is curved. Under those circumstances the person in charge of the platform would stand where he/she could see the TM/guard and their assistant further round the corner, but the TM/guard would only be able to see the person in charge of the platform. Therefore it wouldn't really matter if the platform assistant had a bat too because it wouldn't be seen by the TM/guard.

Hmmm interesting, platforms I work are curved but even so it's pretty much a standard practice to do so at all stations in the area where I've seen HST's dispatched.

 

[AlexS]

It's all in the positioning

Have to say whenever I dispatch trains it's signal first, everything else shortly after - as our signals are semaphore if they come off 'wrong' you don't get the OFF indicator which makes life a bit difficult too.

 

[wensley]

Second bit 1st, are the other members of the traincrew that assisted with the dispatch trained to read signals etc as per the rule book? If I get it wrong leaving a station where the on-board team ie Catering team have assisted and I get it wrong Its my fault, Its upto me to check that the signal is at a proceed aspect and only then can I give the driver right away, unless there is a clear understanding for why I would need to dispatch against a red ie train too long for platform so the loco has had to pass the signal. I would rather anyone who is assisting with dispatch who is a member of the train crew had boarded the train and had the doors shut ASAP. Its one less thing for me to worry about and I can keep my eye on the signal and the clock ready for the off.

1st bit. It depends on the local agreements. Marylebone is prodominently a DOO station and therefore LHCS tends to fit in with the dispatchers usual way of working. Once station duties have been completed and I have signaled to the dipsatcher that my train is locked up and ready to go he will give the RA and we are on our way. The dipatch can involve any number of people to assist and Ive had to dispatchers before now but Ive always come to a clear understanding who is in charge of the dispatch 1st. Wolverhampton, although equiped with RA is always assisted dispatch, ie dispatcher informs me when station duties are complete and I give a buzz buzz to the driver, however if the buzzer is not working then the rulebook says we have to go back to using the RA. Wolves normally has two dispatchers per train and Ive never had more than one bat or lamp shown. Though I would assume in the case of the OP the nearest dispatcher to the guard would be the one in charge and as they where showing each other the bats (dispatchers), all the guard would see is the back of the nearest bat and that would be black so they would not read it as a signal from the dispatcher to the guard. If you get what I mean?.....

Yes, the crews assisting the dispatch are fully trained and must be safety critical in order to assist with dispatching. My point was that if a member of the traincrew is on the platform and the guard starts to dispatch (ie. blows his whistle or whatever) they should not board the train and close the door unless proper arrangements have been made to dispatch against a red thus preventing the guard from authorising the train from starting against a danger aspect. This isn't normally a problem but acts as an extra safeguard to prevent potential SPADs.

Normal dispatch would be guard blows whistle, traincrew raise arm and board train, closing the door. Guard steps onto train and engages CDL before stepping off the train. He/she would then check the signal again along with the hazard lights on the train before blowing the whistle again and waiting from an acknowedgement from the other traincrew assisiting. Then step onboard the train and close the door behind them, check the outside of the trian and give the driver 2 buzzes. The guard and other traincrew then observe departure from the droplights until the train has cleared the platform and the panel should be left live so the guard can give 'one' in case of a problem or emergency.

That is my understanding of the way things stand but I may be incorrect and as has been said procedures vary depending on the operator and local instructions.

 

[Aictos]

What's the issue with non safety critical staff assisting with the closing of doors on slam door stock or with modern stock letting the dispatcher know when the doors are closed and ready to be dispatched?

Staff like RPIs, Catering Crews etc...

 

[wensley]

What's the issue with non safety critical staff assisting with the closing of doors on slam door stock or with modern stock letting the dispatcher know when the doors are closed and ready to be dispatched?

Staff like RPIs, Catering Crews etc...

I think what Isaid is correct and I think it's probably just an extra safeguard to reduce the risk of mistakes.

 

[Zoe]

Back in 2000 I was on an HST and the station where I alighted was unmanned. The senior conductor was on the platform outside his office in coach A and there was another member of staff on the platform at a door in First Class. When it was time for the train to depart the staff member in First Class raised his hand, the senior conductor then activated the CDL. The man down by First Class then raised his hand again and they both entered the train and it departed. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with this at all just what I observed.

 

[Anvil1984]

As with most things in this thread it will differ TOC to TOC, the catering staff at XC and EC domt wait the signal to shut there doors and won't have the knowledge on where the station signals are.

 

[wensley]

The fact that EC and XC catering staff tend not to be trained up is also, in part, due to the fact that mst of their services have the assistance of one or more platform dispatchers at principle stations.

 

[Anvil1984]

Yes but most TOCs have at least 2 staff despatching see the video, that had two people dispatch

 

[Firestarter]

the guard belled the driver after station duties were complete and took no notice of the aspect [/QUOTE]

Just out of interest what if there is no starter signal at the end of a platform, how does the on board guard know he has a proceed signal. Luton Airport Parkway being a good example were east midland trains stop and no signals at the end of the platforms.

 

[scotsman]

What's the issue with non safety critical staff assisting with the closing of doors on slam door stock or with modern stock letting the dispatcher know when the doors are closed and ready to be dispatched?

Staff like RPIs, Catering Crews etc...

Tour Stewards aren't always Safety Critical, and they do doors and SDL on Mk1 and Mk2 stock

 

[CarterUSM]

Just out of interest what if there is no starter signal at the end of a platform, how does the on board guard know he has a proceed signal. Luton Airport Parkway being a good example were east midland trains stop and no signals at the end of the platforms.

If you mean there are no platform starting signals whatsoever, then there is no aspect to obey and inhibit giving 2 on the bell/buzzer.