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Train fire Dalston Kingsland

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Antman

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Has "run, hide, tell" really replaced "Evacuate calmly" in the mind of the public as advice for fire and suspect packages?

No, it is not in the mind of the public but official advice for responding to possible terrorist incidents.

Since terrorists decided shooting people in the head with automatic weapons was a good tactic, getting the hell out of where it is all kicking off is seen as a good idea.
 
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Phil.

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I wonder what, if any, difference to the situation a second member of train crew might have had.

None whatsoever. Once people start to panic there is no way they can "un-panic". It is possible to find scores of posts relating how clear announcements were made about platform changes/train changes/terminating short/etc but people seemingly didn't listen.
I expect a public announcement from those well-known harbingers of "what if" and "doom" the RMT anytime now.
 
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AlterEgo

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I wonder when the ONLY member of traincrew became aware of the situation?

I imagine within a few seconds after everyone stampeded out.

I wonder when a guard would have become aware and what he would have done to avoid the stampede, which seemed to have occurred immediately.
 

Clip

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Well it would of depended on which vehicle the Guard would of been working from (this service departure would of been crewed by former Willesden guards who i was once part of) and if i was working it i would of been within the train environment and not in the back cab and i use to monitor use of the sockets freely available (as that is one of those reports on this smoke). However it isnt going to happen so pointless me continuing.

Dont remember seeing an official statement that the person was using the socket just speculation.

However if you were down one end and this was at the other - it doesnt matter how much you try and twist it that you wouldve noticed it if you were still a guard - you simply can not say for sure.

Im sorry you lost your job, honestly, but you need to get past that now and stop bringing up about a guard in these situations - especially when you have as little information as to where it was in the train and then trying to hypothetically stating you wouldve seen because you simply dont know.
 

Chris M

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The battery was not being charged, from a train socket or otherwise - it was being carried in a rucksack.* When the rucksack started smoking people panicked, thinking it was a bomb - not unreasonable given that bombs in rucksacks were the chosen method of the attackers and would-be attackers in London in July 2005 and elsewere in the world more recently.
This caused a panic, and people trying to get as far from a possible explosion as they could - again, not an unreasonable reaction. The platforms at Dalston Kingsland are narrow and would be crowded at that time of day, and there is a lot of railway land south the south and west where the line to Dalston Junction diverges from the North London Line formation, so people moving on to the track is very understandable in the situation.

Had a member of staff been standing next to the bag, and immediately recognised that it was not a bomb there is a very small chance that they may have been able to prevent the panic, but
(a) there is a small chance that they would be standing next to this particular passenger, particularly if they were not adjacent to a door (I don't know).
(b) if they were anywhere else on the train they would not have been able to do anything - the trains are so crowded in the peaks that moving through them is essentially not possible.
(c) There is no guarantee that even if they had been in the right place, they would have instantly known that it was not a bomb. I know railway staff do get training in identifying suspicious packages, but they are not experts (and even the who are don't always get it right, even when they have time to make a considered decision) and will presumably treat something as suspicious if they aren't certain.

I am very much in favour of trained staff on board trains, but this is not an example of an incident in which they would likely have made significant difference. There are plenty of examples of incidents in which they would though, so it's really not worth fighting the battle over a bad example when there is no shortage of good ones.

Another member of staff might have helped in the immediate aftermath of the panic, but it would make essentially no difference whether they were train or station based. Indeed a station staff may have been more useful as they would be more intimately familiar with
the station and its immediate environs.

*My completely uniformed speculation about the cause is that something else being carried in the bag shorted across the battery terminals.
 

Juniper Driver

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At some point this lithium battery thing is going to result in someone getting killed, most probably on an aircraft - how long before there are legal changes to regulate the typically poor quality Chinese imported batteries that are causing these problems?

This happened to UPS Airlines Flight 6 allegedly (It crashed)...These batteries are damn dangerous when they short.They are found in laptops also.
 
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SpacePhoenix

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This happened to UPS Airlines Flight 6 allegedly (It crashed)...These batteries are damn dangerous when they short.They are found in laptops also.

Just about any portable electronic device built over the last 5 years or so will use li-on batteries. @any commercial guards, do your portable ticket machines use lithium batteries?
 

gimmea50anyday

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I think it highly unlikely the workman was charging their drill from the socket on the train, though the way this discussion is going it looks like the forum's hive mind may have already come to this erroneous conclusion!

If he was the low current drain would be suitable for the power available from on board power sockets.
 
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Bletchleyite

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On board sockets on those trains are marked "not for public use". There was a thread on here a while ago about someone being threatened with prosecution by BTP for refusing to unplug.

On another note...it seems obvious to me that the solution to the risks of lithium batteries shorting is that standards should mandate all new ones to have an internal fuse. Why is this not being considered?
 

gimmea50anyday

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any commercial guards, do your portable ticket machines use lithium batteries?


The batteries in the avantix machines are Ni-MH as are those in the blackberries. The newer samsung mobiles now being favoured are polymer batteries as are those in thw new star mobile ticket machinea which also use a samsung galaxy mobile as its CPU. This is why roll out of the machines has been delayed.
 

gimmea50anyday

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On board sockets on those trains are marked "not for public use". There was a thread on here a while ago about someone being threatened with prosecution by BTP for refusing to unplug?

I recall that incident but I dont think there an actual law preventing you from using those sockets. However, as with the first sockets provided on the HSTs used by cleaners to vacuum the train the power may not be clean (i.e not regulated) and could surge and spike. Not an issue for an industrial henry but could fry a step down transformer or resistors usually fitted to phone chargers!
 

hwl

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On another note...it seems obvious to me that the solution to the risks of lithium batteries shorting is that standards should mandate all new ones to have an internal fuse. Why is this not being considered?

It won't work given many of the actual failure mechanisms in the batteries hence it isn't done, there are other protection mechanisms though for example it looks like this was a makita battery (or clone) from the 3-5Ah Li-Ion range and they have protection against charging damaged cells or overheating during charging which is monitored by circuity in the battery unit that talks to the charger.
 

Bletchleyite

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I recall that incident but I dont think there an actual law preventing you from using those sockets. However, as with the first sockets provided on the HSTs used by cleaners to vacuum the train the power may not be clean (i.e not regulated) and could surge and spike. Not an issue for an industrial henry but could fry a step down transformer or resistors usually fitted to phone chargers!

Supposedly the threatened charge was theft of electricity, which does I believe exist e.g. to stop people tapping into next door's metered supply, though it's rather a "de minimis" case. I seem to recall the person was rude to the Police Officer when asked to unplug, so that was probably why he went looking for an option - in most "de minimis" cases like that "sorry, Officer" and stopping doing the thing you've been asked to stop doing is going to be the end of it.
 

Bletchleyite

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Just about any portable electronic device built over the last 5 years or so will use li-on batteries. @any commercial guards, do your portable ticket machines use lithium batteries?

Probably. But these days carrying an exposed spare battery is unlikely for phones etc - most people would carry a USB charger pack which will have some element of regulation on the output so shorting the USB port (e.g. by the end of a metal teaspoon accidentally sticking in it - not impossible given how many people carry a pot of breakfast of some kind to work) isn't likely to cause a big bang and a fire. OTOH, most drills come with a spare battery so you can charge one while working, and those are just batteries which probably would overheat if shorted. Lose the compartmented plastic storage box and dump it in a bag with other tools and you can see how that might come about.
 
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Joe Paxton

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On board sockets on those trains are marked "not for public use".

A notice doesn't stop people charging their phones using them though.

But as I said I think it highly unlikely the power drill's battery was being charged at the time.

Why?

  1. A decent workman would have charged his tools already if he needed to before heading to work in the morning.
  2. A busy peak morning train is not the place to be trying to illicitly plug in and charge anything - too many people standing and shuffling around the carriage. Just not practical.
  3. The journey on this train likely wouldn't have been very long, i.e. not long enough to give a power drill's battery a worthwhile charge.

People very occasionally plug their phones in - though I haven't seen this when the train is busy - in order to get a small charge enough to revive an almost or entirely dead mobile, in order to send a message or two.

Anyway as I said in an earlier the notion that the power drill's battery was being charged is a total red herring, based on zero information whatsoever.

The most likely thing is it was a dodgy, cheapo battery pack. Perhaps it got knocked or bashed in some way which got the process of thermal runaway started.
 
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Skoodle

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Lucky it was Dalston Kingsland rather than Dalston 'Junction' with the added hazard of the 3rd rail

The area where the passengers went on the line is right next to the Dalston Western Curve. You can see it behind on the second last photo on the BBC link mentioned. Thankfully there is a very large section gap around that curve in that small triangle area.

On a pedantic note, if it happened at Dalston Junction, they would have only been able to go on to the platform side, which is much wider than Kingsland, so less of a risk of passengers deciding to spill on to the line. Quick exit out of the normal exit on the Northern end, or if they did go South, they would have come to an emergency exit before the end of the platform. It really would have been a lot smoother had it happened at Dalston Junction.
 

Joe Paxton

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The area where the passengers went on the line is right next to the Dalston Western Curve. You can see it behind on the second last photo on the BBC link mentioned. Thankfully there is a very large section gap around that curve in that small triangle area.

On a pedantic note, if it happened at Dalston Junction, they would have only been able to go on to the platform side, which is much wider than Kingsland, so less of a risk of passengers deciding to spill on to the line. Quick exit out of the normal exit on the Northern end, or if they did go South, they would have come to an emergency exit before the end of the platform. It really would have been a lot smoother had it happened at Dalston Junction.

Agreed.

Dalston Kingsland can get very busy at peak times. It has the distinct feel of a station designed for rather lower passenger numbers than it gets now. At peak times there are station staff on the platforms monitoring boarding and encouraging people to move down the platforms. I suspect there may have been a member of station staff on the platform when this incident happened.
 

Dolive22

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I recall that incident but I dont think there an actual law preventing you from using those sockets. However, as with the first sockets provided on the HSTs used by cleaners to vacuum the train the power may not be clean (i.e not regulated) and could surge and spike. Not an issue for an industrial henry but could fry a step down transformer or resistors usually fitted to phone chargers!

As noted by someone else, drawing power from someone else's circuit is dishonestly abstracting electricity (you can't steal electricity because it is a force, something that was discovered at a trial for theft of electricity, funnily enough shortly before a bill was introduced to create the dishonestly abstracting offence), but it is a byelaw offence, 11 (1) "operate... or in any other way interfere with any part of a train or other equipment on the railway", and 12 (1), disobeying, without reasonable notice, a safety notice (assuming that it was issued for safety reasons).
 

najaB

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On another note...it seems obvious to me that the solution to the risks of lithium batteries shorting is that standards should mandate all new ones to have an internal fuse. Why is this not being considered?
Quality batteries do have current protection circuitry, though this is largely of use in preventing damage/fires caused by overcharging. However, it is of little use in preventing thermal runaway caused by damage to the battery pack, and the cheap knockoffs quite often omit the protection completely.
 

Phil.

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As noted by someone else, drawing power from someone else's circuit is dishonestly abstracting electricity (you can't steal electricity because it is a force, something that was discovered at a trial for theft of electricity, funnily enough shortly before a bill was introduced to create the dishonestly abstracting offence), but it is a byelaw offence, 11 (1) "operate... or in any other way interfere with any part of a train or other equipment on the railway", and 12 (1), disobeying, without reasonable notice, a safety notice (assuming that it was issued for safety reasons).

The reason for the notice is to prevent a person who, after plugging their 'phone/laptop/whatever in and then finding it damaged by a "spiky" supply suing the TOC. The same applies to notices on steps at stations such as Clapham Junction which state something along the lines of, "we care about your safety, please don't run". Truth is "they" care about being sued by a punter slithering on a slippery surface such as those death trap stairs in the new over bridge at East Croydon.
 

theageofthetra

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The reason for the notice is to prevent a person who, after plugging their 'phone/laptop/whatever in and then finding it damaged by a "spiky" supply suing the TOC. The same applies to notices on steps at stations such as Clapham Junction which state something along the lines of, "we care about your safety, please don't run". Truth is "they" care about being sued by a punter slithering on a slippery surface such as those death trap stairs in the new over bridge at East Croydon.
Surely the biggest risk are the batteries used in disability scooters. A lot of the newer ones use huge lithium packs.
 

najaB

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A lot of the newer ones use huge lithium packs.
That's interesting, they always used to use lead-acid. Wouldn't have thought that the additional cost of Li-ion cells would be worth the cost in such a low-power application.
 

Bletchleyite

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That's interesting, they always used to use lead-acid. Wouldn't have thought that the additional cost of Li-ion cells would be worth the cost in such a low-power application.

I have never heard of a lead-acid battery drill. Older ones used Ni-Cd or NiMH, but those have their issues (principally issues with charging) and so newer ones, even cheaper ones, all use Li Ion. Mine certainly does.
 

Bletchleyite

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FWIW, a shorted Ni-Cd or NiMH can also get very hot and cause a fire/explosion. It's nothing new. All rechargeable dry cells are capable of discharging their entire contents instantly - this isn't true of lead acid or non-rechargeable dry cells. It's that that causes the issue with shorting.

Where Li-Ion is more dangerous is the higher energy density and that lithium reacts rather messily with water.
 

Juniper Driver

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This happened to UPS Airlines Flight 6 allegedly (It crashed)...These batteries are damn dangerous when they short.They are found in laptops also.

EDIT:Missed a bit in my post UPS Airlines Flight 6 was carrying a cargo of these batteries (Li-ion) and I think one of these shorted causing a fire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UPS_Airlines_Flight_6

Question for Dalston Kingsland...Havent been down there since the mid 1980's...by train anyway...Isn't it D.O.O now?
 
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gimmea50anyday

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A battery fire brought down a South African Airways 747 Combi. In this case the batteries were in the cargo bay disturbed by turbulence
 
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