Train line ticket are lost in the post

[yorkie]

And has been said before, don't use third party companies. They never offer better prices than the train operators as they charge a commission, something that the train operators cannot.

Trainsplit can offer better prices than train operators.

If someone is unsure who might be the best company to buy from, simply start a search for the journey on the National Rail site and this will direct you to the appropriate operator where your transaction will be processed.

Not always!

"Our" ?

I assume he means ATW

 

[maffi209]

I learned a valuable lesson recently about the usefulness of buying from TOC with whom one is travelling. Bought return MKC - BHM through London Midland site. Outward with LM, returning with VT. Tickets didn’t arrive through post. Contacted LM and they told me:

1. Their responsibility stopped once the tickets had been dispatched.
2. They could not do very much about my VT ticket as it wasn’t for one of their services. VT could not do anything because it had been booked through LM.
3. As a gesture of goodwill LM gave me permission to travel on booked outward train and my choice of LM service back to MK. Which they did - but couldn’t (or didn’t) reissue any tickets.

I was not disappointed with LM customer service but I guess that had I booked the VT leg via VT site then they would have been happy to sort that in a similar way and my homeward journey would not have been twice as long as I had planned.

 

[yorkie]

....
I was not disappointed with LM customer service but I guess that had I booked the VT leg via VT site then they would have been happy to sort that in a similar way and my homeward journey would not have been twice as long as I had planned.

I'm not so sure; Virgin have been offering abysmal service (both WC and EC) recently.

I'm aware of numerous incidents of VT mistreating people lately.

 

[sheff1]

Contacted LM and they told me:

1. Their responsibility stopped once the tickets had been dispatched.
2. They could not do very much about my VT ticket as it wasn’t for one of their services. VT could not do anything because it had been booked through LM.

1. Earlier posts have explained why (1) is not true.
2. As LM was the ticket seller, there is much they could and should do.

You were not disappointed with LM customer services but, as they were refusing to meet their obligations, I would be rather more than disappointed if it had happened to me.

 

[matt]

I assume he means ATW

No I assume he means this https://www.newtownstationtravel.co.uk/ as pointed out earlier in the thread

 

[maffi209]

You were not disappointed with LM customer services but, as they were refusing to meet their obligations, I would be rather more than disappointed if it had happened to me.

I should also have added that I had somehow only managed to notice I had not received the tickets on the morning of travel. That I had been so profoundly careless in my own organisation and that I was still able to travel at no extra cost left me particularly grateful to LM. Maybe not perfect but a very high standard of imperfection.

 

[sheff1]

I should also have added that I had somehow only managed to notice I had not received the tickets on the morning of travel. That I had been so profoundly careless in my own organisation and that I was still able to travel at no extra cost left me particularly grateful to LM. Maybe not perfect but a very high standard of imperfection.

In those circumstances, I can see why you would have been grateful. Still doesn't justify them claiming their responsibility had stopped though.

 

[najaB]

Your TnCs are likely not to have much legal backing. As a seller you’re legally responsible for ensuring delivery of the tickets and you can’t wash your hands of that responsibility.

True, however if memory serves correctly you have to allow 10 working days (two weeks) before an item posted 1st class is considered lost. So if the passenger orders less than 10 working days in advance it's on their head (metaphorically speaking).

 

[Puffing Devil]

True, however if memory serves correctly you have to allow 10 working days (two weeks) before an item posted 1st class is considered lost. So if the passenger orders less than 10 working days in advance it's on their head (metaphorically speaking).

No. The seller is responsible for the delivery. If there is a risk that the tickets will not be delivered in time, the seller should use another method of despatch. The risk is not with the buyer.

The seller has the choice to sell or not, they also have the choice of the postal services that they offer.

 

[najaB]

If there is a risk that the tickets will not be delivered in time...

There is always a risk that they won't be delivered in time, regardless of shipping method.

The seller has the choice to sell or not, they also have the choice of the postal services that they offer.

In this case the buyer also has a choice of which shipping method they choose to use. If they choose to use 1st Class mail then they accept that it may take up to 10 working days.

 

[island]

Agree - you're going to fall foul of the Consumer Rights Act. It would need a very specific waiver and disclaimer to be signed by the customer before you could even think about ducking out of your responsibilities - more than an simple warning or tick box.

The avoidance of seller liability for non-delivery of goods only arises where the buyer requests a delivery method that the seller has not suggested (s 29 (3) Consumer Rights Act 2015). In these circumstances the risk in the goods transfers to the buyer when the goods are handed to an agent of the chosen delivery method.

If the seller offers a delivery method for goods, no amount of terms and conditions, however clearly presented, can transfer risk in the goods to a buyer choosing that method before delivery to the buyer (s 31 (1) Consumer Rights Act 2015).

What we forget here however is that a contract to purchase railway tickets is a contract for services, not goods, so it is not at all clear whether s 29 Consumer Rights Act 2015 is engaged at all.

 

[najaB]

If the seller offers a delivery method for goods, no amount of terms and conditions, however clearly presented, can transfer risk in the goods to a buyer choosing that method before delivery to the buyer (s 31 (1) Consumer Rights Act 2015).

In this case, however, there's no indication that TheTrainline is seeking to escape their obligations - they have said that they will refund the OP when the tickets are returned, and one assumes that they will (or have) raise a missing mail case with Royal Mail and refund the OP once they have a response. It's not TheTrainLine's fault that the OP chose the delivery method that didn't guarantee time-bound delivery.

 

[Puffing Devil]

The avoidance of seller liability for non-delivery of goods only arises where the buyer requests a delivery method that the seller has not suggested (s 29 (3) Consumer Rights Act 2015). In these circumstances the risk in the goods transfers to the buyer when the goods are handed to an agent of the chosen delivery method.

If the seller offers a delivery method for goods, no amount of terms and conditions, however clearly presented, can transfer risk in the goods to a buyer choosing that method before delivery to the buyer (s 31 (1) Consumer Rights Act 2015).

What we forget here however is that a contract to purchase railway tickets is a contract for services, not goods, so it is not at all clear whether s 29 Consumer Rights Act 2015 is engaged at all.

That was my understanding, without reading the specific legislation, hence my comments about a specific waiver. In this case, it looks like no waiver will excuse any liability.

In this case, however, there's no indication that TheTrainline is seeking to escape their obligations - they have said that they will refund the OP when the tickets are returned, and one assumes that they will (or have) raise a missing mail case with Royal Mail and refund the OP once they have a response. It's not TheTrainLine's fault that the OP chose the delivery method that didn't guarantee time-bound delivery.

Further to the above, any service must be provided with "reasonable care and skill" - posting time sensitive tickets using first class post, then acknowledging it may take 10 days to arrive is not reasonable care and skill.

 

[najaB]

Further to the above, any service must be provided with "reasonable care and skill" - posting time sensitive tickets using first class post, then acknowledging it may take 10 days to arrive is not reasonable care and skill.

The thing is, Royal Mail's delivery target is next working day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TBH the issue is less timely delivery and more that if they go missing the insurance is not adequate to cover the cost of replacement, particularly given that that cost may be *higher* than the original price.

 

[poppyanne]

*UPDATE*
Thank you all for listening to me rant.
My son and girlfriend made it to London for his birthday weekend, I used National express coach service. They were helpful and it was far, far cheaper than trying to get a train a week before travel and didn't take much longer than the train would have done.

I still feel that Trainline had an obligation to to at least be a little bit helpful ( as I was told from their customer services" I am in India and your tickets are in UK, What can I do?"). But, reading other comments it would seem that train line is not the only company who cannot see their obligation to provide a better service for delivery or re-issue of any purchased tickets.

Having also since looked on Royal Mail for delivery prices, the price for untracked 2nd class is only 76p but only covers good to value of £20! Trainline charge £1.95). For anything with a value over £50 and under £250 it has to be signed for. So, WHY are they using an untracked/unsigned 2nd class method for delivery? especially as the value of the tickets would far exceed the £20 you could claim from RM. The only other method was next day signed for, but i wasn't in a hurry so didn't need that option and I didn't know the 2nd class option was untracked( it doesn't say)!!

As you may have read on my previous post I was going to Paypal resolution. I have finally just heard back from them. I AM GETTING A REFUND (little jig around the living room) Although it will probably now go towards my phone bill to their customer services charged at 13p per minute.
Anyway, I am so pleased with this result. I have tried so hard to not to shout and scream about it, and I know to some it wasn't that much money ( read Trainline) but I had to save for those tickets to give my Son a great 18th birthday. having to buy more travel tickets was not in my budget. I hope this also helps someone else get a better result with train companies.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hving also since looked on Royal Mail for delivery prices, the price for untracked 2nd class is only 76p but only covers good to value of £20! Trainline charge £1.95). For anything with a value over £50 and under £250 it has to be signed for. So, WHY are they using an untracked/unsigned 2nd class method for delivery? especially as the value of the tickets would far exceed the £20 you could claim from RM. The only other method was next day signed for, but i wasn't in a hurry so didn't need that option and I didn't know the 2nd class option was untracked( it doesn't say)!!

I do agree they shouldn't offer inadequately insured post.

 

[IanD]

Which is more likely? A customer accidentally deleting with one keystroke, the first line of their address, or a random glitch in Trainline’s matrix? Experience would tell me the former.

Experience would tell me the latter.

I have an address that goes something like this:

9 Abbey Close
Abbey Street
Newport Pagnell
MK99 9KM

This is the post office naming convention:
Premise number
Dependent Thoroughfare
Thoroughfare
Town
Postcode

If I enter my postcode online the above is usually the address that pops up. However, on numerous occasions whoever has programmed the mailing module has failed to grasp the concept of the "Dependent Thoroughfare" so they build the address using only Premise Number, Thoroughfare, Town, Postcode and my mail gets delivered to 9 Abbey Street instead. Or, the person delivering the letter thinks that as soon as they reach 9 Abbey Street they have the correct address even if the address is printed exactly as above.

This wouldn't be much of an issue if the people who live at 9 Abbey Street were reasonable and just brought my mail the 50 yards round the corner (as I used to do when I get mail meant for them) or handed it back to the postman or simply wrote "Try 9 Abbey Close" on the envelope and shoved it in the post box attached to the house next to theirs. Instead ,they have got it in to their heads that it is somehow my fault and I'm deliberately addressing my mail to their house to annoy them. So they just send it back with "Not known at this address" on it. As far as the sender is concerned, their letter has been delivered to the address supplied and I don't live there - so I must have given the wrong address.

If given the option, I will remove the Abbey Street at submission time but often this is not possible (eg the old Northern website, the National Lottery website). I now pick up all train tickets from Wolverton or Milton Keynes Central to avoid the hassle.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

*UPDATE*
Thank you all for listening to me rant.
My son and girlfriend made it to London for his birthday weekend, I used National express coach service. They were helpful and it was far, far cheaper than trying to get a train a week before travel and didn't take much longer than the train would have done.

I still feel that Trainline had an obligation to to at least be a little bit helpful ( as I was told from their customer services" I am in India and your tickets are in UK, What can I do?"). But, reading other comments it would seem that train line is not the only company who cannot see their obligation to provide a better service for delivery or re-issue of any purchased tickets.

Having also since looked on Royal Mail for delivery prices, the price for untracked 2nd class is only 76p but only covers good to value of £20! Trainline charge £1.95). For anything with a value over £50 and under £250 it has to be signed for. So, WHY are they using an untracked/unsigned 2nd class method for delivery? especially as the value of the tickets would far exceed the £20 you could claim from RM. The only other method was next day signed for, but i wasn't in a hurry so didn't need that option and I didn't know the 2nd class option was untracked( it doesn't say)!!

As you may have read on my previous post I was going to Paypal resolution. I have finally just heard back from them. I AM GETTING A REFUND (little jig around the living room) Although it will probably now go towards my phone bill to their customer services charged at 13p per minute.
Anyway, I am so pleased with this result. I have tried so hard to not to shout and scream about it, and I know to some it wasn't that much money ( read Trainline) but I had to save for those tickets to give my Son a great 18th birthday. having to buy more travel tickets was not in my budget. I hope this also helps someone else get a better result with train companies.

Under Regulation 41(2) of the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013, they are legally bound to repay you the difference between 13p a minute and whatever it would have cost you if they were a regular rate (01/02/03) number. If you have a BT landline it's likely nothing, but on most mobile or other contracts this would be the full 13p a minute.

 

[maniacmartin]

I feel your pain IanD.
My address (in flat 12) as per the Royal Mail PAF is like this:
12 Building Name
34 Street Name
Purley

But almost all couriers and takeaways for anywhere in our building ring the bell for flat 34, and then when no-one is in, leave their parcels on flat 34's doorstep. My neighbour is now so annoyed at being interrupted with a whole flat block's deliveries she has disabled her doorbell, so I just get 'sorry we missed you' cards, even when I am at home.

There's no reason I know why Trainline couldn't offer Royal Mail Tracked 48 (available to business accounts only) or Recorded Signed for (the one with the orange label). Both are good value and provide tracking of whether an item reached its final address, but do not guarantee next day delivery.. Instead they only offer totally untracked or the expensive Royal Mail Special Delivery which guarantees next-day delivery.

 

[rmt4ever]

Never use Trainline anyway, because they charge fees that others don't, and they are not cheaper. Always buy from the TOC you are travelling with (for most of your journey if more than one) for the best deals.

But if you didn't for whatever reason enter the first address line or blanked it accidentally I don't see that it can be seen as their fault (other than that it's a bit rubbish if their system's validation doesn't block that).

TBH, I think vendors should stop offering 1st class post, it creates them (and you) these problems. They could use Royal Mail Tracked 24/48 instead. Certainly when I sell on eBay I never use any non-tracked method of postage even if I am asked to do so by a buyer.

But 1st class post is free

 

[Bletchleyite]

But 1st class post is free

Free to whom?

The problem is that people want free delivery *and* they want the vendor to cover the cost of the tickets if lost.

That's not fair.

 

[rmt4ever]

Free to whom?

The problem is that people want free delivery *and* they want the vendor to cover the cost of the tickets if lost.

That's not fair.

Sounds fair to me.

Or they could get proof of posting which is free from Post Office. Then claim from Royal Mail if they lose the tickets

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sounds fair to me.

Or they could get proof of posting which is free from Post Office. Then claim from Royal Mail if they lose the tickets

First class post is only insured to £20, so I see no reason why the vendor should pay out any more than that in the event of loss.

But people still argue, so were I the vendor (as I am from time to time on eBay) I would absolutely refuse to send an item using a method which did not provide insurance cover for the cost of a full refund or replacement item (whichever was the lower).

If you want them free, go pick them up at a TVM yourself.

 

[sheff1]

The problem is that people want free delivery *and* they want the vendor to cover the cost of the tickets if lost.

That's not fair.

People want the vendor to meet their legal obligations. Sounds perfectly fair.

If a vendor does not wish to meet the legal requirements associated with a particular method of delivery the answer is simple - do not offer that method to customers.

 

[najaB]

People want the vendor to meet their legal obligations. Sounds perfectly fair.

Nobody has said that TheTrainline are trying to skip on their legal obligations - I'm confident that, if your tickets don't show up in 10 working days they will initiate a RM trace and refund depending on the results.

 

[Bletchleyite]

People want the vendor to meet their legal obligations. Sounds perfectly fair.

If a vendor does not wish to meet the legal requirements associated with a particular method of delivery the answer is simple - do not offer that method to customers.

Indeed, which is why as I said I do not offer, when selling on eBay, any method which is not insured to the full value of the goods.

And I don't see why the ticket vendors do either.

 

[poppyanne]

In this case, however, there's no indication that TheTrainline is seeking to escape their obligations - they have said that they will refund the OP when the tickets are returned, and one assumes that they will (or have) raise a missing mail case with Royal Mail and refund the OP once they have a response. It's not TheTrainLine's fault that the OP chose the delivery method that didn't guarantee time-bound delivery.

Actually, they have at no stage tried to deal with this except to keep on repeating "when we have the tickets back we can then refund you" and how can they raise a claim with RM as its not tracked and with inadequate insurance?
Why is it not train lines fault which delivery I chose? There was only 2 options. Next day or 2nd class. I order tickets over a month on advance as wasn't in a hurry to get them as I had plenty of time. As I stated before, I was unaware that the 2nd class delivery option wasn't tracked it didn't say!

 

[poppyanne]

Free to whom?

The problem is that people want free delivery *and* they want the vendor to cover the cost of the tickets if lost.

That's not fair.

I never chose a free delivery option.

If the company doesn't use adequate delivery methods i.e. tracked, then yes, the vendor's are responsible if tickets are lost, not the recipients.

 

[sheff1]

Actually, they have at no stage tried to deal with this except to keep on repeating "when we have the tickets back we can then refund you" ...

Why is it not train lines fault which delivery I chose?

Some people seem to hold the view that a passenger is always in the wrong - after all, in their eyes, why would anyone dream of accepting a delivery option freely offered by a vendor and then expect that vendor to meet their legal obligations when that option fails to deliver the tickets ?