Train v Plane, Glasgow-London

[Traveller54]

Hi, I'm new to this forum, apologies if this has been covered before.

For over 25 years, I've always flown between Glasgow and London, but I wonder whether rail might now be better. When you look at the fare structure, by the time you've added extras such as hold bags and seat booking to your air fare, the cost of a first class advance on Virgin's pendolino service compares quite favourably. Furthermore, with the time spent hanging around the airport queuing for the bag drop and going through security, and then travelling into central London from the destination airport, the total travel time on the pendolino, will not be that much more than by air and hopefully a more civilised and relaxing experience.

I'd like to hear what others think, in particular any recent experiences of first class on the WCML.

Thanks

 

[Darandio]

It's reminded me of a similar piece from a few years back that I watched the other day, although in this case it was on the East Coast.

[youtube]WXIdAtB-rBI[/youtube]

I'd be interested to know how it fares these days, particularly on the west.

 

[Failed Unit]

Depends on your start / end points to be honest. If you are going to docklands for example the tube over make flying to city. However if you are going between Charing Cross & Charing Cross the train / plane will be a reasonable comparison in terms of time.

 

[Agent_c]

Well, if you're comparing terminal to terminal....

Its £6.50 one way on the bus to Glasgow airport. Glasgow Shuttle takes 15 mins.

Oyster to Z1 is £5.70, with journey times listed as "Under an hour" to central London, so lets take that as an hour including wait times.

You'll need to be at the airport an hour or two before for security, so presuming you're cautious like me, we're at 3 hours 15 mins (15 mins to get to Glasgow, 2hrs at the airport, and 1hr to get to central London), and we haven't even counted flight time or sitting around and waiting for the baggage to come. so 4-5 hrs. Pendo's pending on the time is 4-6 hours I think, and you have the added advantage that you don't have to go through security theatre.

I'd instead suggest taking the sleeper. Walk up to Central around 11pm, go to sleep, wake up in London 6am-7am or so. No time "wasted" as you probably would have been sleeping anyway.

 

[najaB]

Pendo's pending on the time is 4-6 hours I think, and you have the added advantage that you don't have to go through security theatre.

The x:40 departures are around four and a half hours for the most part.

 

[Timster83]

There are advantages to both and also variances in situations.

I am currently in London after travelling on the sleeper to save on a night's accommodation (and to experience it for the first time). However, next month I'll fly to Heathrow because it's better located for my employer's head office in Maidenhead.

 

[Traveller54]

Well, if you're comparing terminal to terminal....

Its £6.50 one way on the bus to Glasgow airport. Glasgow Shuttle takes 15 mins.

Oyster to Z1 is £5.70, with journey times listed as "Under an hour" to central London, so lets take that as an hour including wait times.

You'll need to be at the airport an hour or two before for security, so presuming you're cautious like me, we're at 3 hours 15 mins (15 mins to get to Glasgow, 2hrs at the airport, and 1hr to get to central London), and we haven't even counted flight time or sitting around and waiting for the baggage to come. so 4-5 hrs. Pendo's pending on the time is 4-6 hours I think, and you have the added advantage that you don't have to go through security theatre.

I'd instead suggest taking the sleeper. Walk up to Central around 11pm, go to sleep, wake up in London 6am-7am or so. No time "wasted" as you probably would have been sleeping anyway.

I live in Renfrewshire where the only easy way of getting to Glasgow airport is by taxi, the nearest station is Johnstone which has frequent trains to central. I considered the sleeper as we are going on a Great Rail holiday on the Eurostar but it will be a fairly early departure and I wouldnt want to risk the sleeper running late, so we would travel to London the day before and Euston is only a short distance from St Pancras with a good choice of hotels. Coming back, I understand the Eurostar gets in mid evening, so we may take the sleeper then, though having read the Serco thread, I'm not holding my breath!

 

[Clip]

Well, if you're comparing terminal to terminal....

Its £6.50 one way on the bus to Glasgow airport. Glasgow Shuttle takes 15 mins.

Oyster to Z1 is £5.70, with journey times listed as "Under an hour" to central London, so lets take that as an hour including wait times.

You'll need to be at the airport an hour or two before for security, so presuming you're cautious like me, we're at 3 hours 15 mins (15 mins to get to Glasgow, 2hrs at the airport, and 1hr to get to central London), and we haven't even counted flight time or sitting around and waiting for the baggage to come. so 4-5 hrs. Pendo's pending on the time is 4-6 hours I think, and you have the added advantage that you don't have to go through security theatre.

.

You're only using Heathrow as a comparison there. London city will get you through in around 15 mins and a 15 min ride into Bank.

 

[Agent_c]

I live in Renfrewshire where the only easy way of getting to Glasgow airport is by taxi, the nearest station is Johnstone which has frequent trains to central. I considered the sleeper as we are going on a Great Rail holiday on the Eurostar but it will be a fairly early departure and I wouldnt want to risk the sleeper running late, so we would travel to London the day before and Euston is only a short distance from St Pancras with a good choice of hotels. Coming back, I understand the Eurostar gets in mid evening, so we may take the sleeper then, though having read the Serco thread, I'm not holding my breath!

Then I would say definately the train, as its going to save you a lot of messing about in London, the trains going to get you as close as your transport point as possible.

There are rail tickets sold to Glasgow airport, with a transfer to a bus in Paisley if you wanted to go that way.

 

[mrmartin]

I've done an awful lot of journeys between both Glasgow and Edinburgh to London.

Generally, the train is faster I find. From east london:

Train:
Tube to Kings X/Euston (~20 mins)
Train (~4hrs)
Taxi/bus/tram to destination in Glasgow/Edinburgh (very rarely over 20 minutes).

Total: 4h45 say

Plane:
Tube to Liverpool Street/Tottenham Hale (~20 mins)
Train to Stansted (~1hr)
Security, waiting around (~2hrs)
Flight (~1h15)
Deplane/exit/collect baggage (~30mins)
Taxi/tram/bus into town (~30mins)

Always comes in over 5 hours. I've never managed to do it door to door in less than that.

In terms of cost, the train is cheaper generally - but I have a railcard which saves about £40 on an open return. Next year when it runs out the plane will be at least £30 cheaper including all the costs (stansted express, taxis etc).

The train does have two advantages though:

1) I can not worry about missing a specific one or if my plans change I can leave a day early or whatever

2) I can use the break of journey really well - say I need to meet in Manchester or Birmingham on the way down, I can take a different route. Considering I'm going the whole length of the country I can probably go to nearly all of the big cities on the way back for another meeting if I plan things properly at no extra cost.

 

[Essexman]

Comparing plane with sleeper for business travel sleeper wins every time for me. Leave home about 10pm (earlier for Highland sleeper) arrive in Glasgow or Edinburgh 7.15, with plenty of time for shower, breakfast and travel to meetings. Either afternoon train back or sleeper according to meeting times & personal preference. Beats getting up at 4am to fly.

 

[ADRboy]

I always go via train for Glasgow - London. Less hassle.

Get on, sit down, get off.

No taking shoes and belts off, being held at gates, security checks, travelling back into central London from whichever airport you fly to. Isn't much time in it but the convenience is the winner.

 

[Mojo]

What about the waiting around time at the station? When travelling on Advance tickets from Kings + or Euston I feel very uncomfortable arriving any less than 30 Min before my train leaves, due to the risk of delays.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd be interested to know how it fares these days, particularly on the west.

Depends where you live and where you're going. When I last did a similar journey in reverse (a weekly commute MK to/from Edinburgh) air won, because Luton Airport is a 40 minute taxi ride from me, Edinburgh airport is quite near the centre and so the office was only a 20 minute taxi ride or thereabouts, and both airports are very quick to get through with hand luggage only (as most business travellers tend to do). Add to that the first train north from MKC not being early enough, and the sleeper eating too much of my Sunday evening by the time I've travelled south to connect with it.

The thing with these comparisons is that very few people (though more than used to) live in city centres, so you have to factor in the connecting journey. Many people in the South East live near an airport (as there are several of them in the area) so this skews it the other way even given that the destination is more likely to be a city centre than the origin.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No taking shoes and belts off, being held at gates, security checks, travelling back into central London from whichever airport you fly to. Isn't much time in it but the convenience is the winner.

I find as a weekly commuter you get used to a system for going through security and it is remarkably little hassle (unless you get the random buzz, but it's always obvious when that's why and provided you do cooperate the "because we have to" screening is done very quickly).

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Security, waiting around (~2hrs)

Not anywhere near necessary at most airports if you're travelling hand luggage only as most business travellers do. One hour is ample - and you get to know your airport very well if you're a regular (the waiting times are very predictable). That said, I used to arrive quite early at a time I knew the queues to be non-existent and use the time to enjoy a leisurely English breakfast. Other than hauling myself out of bed at 4:30am Monday mornings were a surprising pleasure.

On only one occasion in 2.5 years or so of weekly commuting by air (6 months to Scotland, 2 years to Switzerland, roughly) would I have missed the flight if I'd arrived at Luton an hour before departure - and that was a completely freak situation which was caused by a closure of the M1 *and* serious disruption on Thameslink meaning several thousand people arrived at exactly the same time leading to the queue going out of the door. Acceptable risk, I'd say.

Neil

 

[MCR247]

What about the waiting around time at the station? When travelling on Advance tickets from Kings + or Euston I feel very uncomfortable arriving any less than 30 Min before my train leaves, due to the risk of delays.

This.

Its always interesting that in a train vs plane thread one advantage of the train that is always pointed out is that there is no waiting around at the station as there is at the airport. However, in a thread entitled 'Missed train on advanced ticket due to circumstances out of my control etc' people very unsympathetically state that you should always plan to get to the station within plenty of time in case absolutely everything goes wrong on your journey to the station.

 

[Agent_c]

What about the waiting around time at the station? When travelling on Advance tickets from Kings + or Euston I feel very uncomfortable arriving any less than 30 Min before my train leaves, due to the risk of delays.

The difference is there's no obligation to. You could arrive 3 mins before and make it... For Air, you have no choice as you have to clear security theatre first.

 

[najaB]

...people very unsympathetically state that you should always plan to get to the station within plenty of time in case absolutely everything goes wrong on your journey to the station.

5 to 10 minutes is plenty for a train journey if you already have your tickets.

 

[class303]

train every time.

 

[Mojo]

The difference is there's no obligation to. You could arrive 3 mins before and make it... For Air, you have no choice as you have to clear security theatre first.

There's also no obligation to arrive at the Airport 2 Hr before your plane leaves, as someone else in this thread suggested.

 

[dk1]

train every time.

"Ditto"

 

[Agent_c]

There's also no obligation to arrive at the Airport 2 Hr before your plane leaves, as someone else in this thread suggested.

If I may quote from Virgin Atlantic (Who do London-Edinburgh for the short term at least)

Please check in at least 2.5 hours prior to departure**; or cut the queues entirely, check in online at www.virgin-atlantic.com/checkin Please note: Our check in facilities will close 60 minutes prior to the scheduled departure time of the flight.

I'm not aware of any TOC that would advise being there 2 and a half hours before, and wont let you on the train if you're not there and checked in at least hour before.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not aware of any TOC that would advise being there 2 and a half hours before, and wont let you on the train if you're not there and checked in at least hour before.

No, but remember a flight is rather faster than a train. And most business travellers travel hand-luggage only, which means you don't have to do any such thing - I believe at Heathrow T5 you have to clear security 35 minutes before the flight or it's assumed you won't make it, though.

Even the baggage check-in time for short-haul *tends* (but isn't always) to be shorter. 45 minutes for BA (20 minutes at LCY), 40 for easyJet.

Neil

 

[mrmartin]

Fair enough, 2 hours is probably on the high side but that's also the buffer if there are transport problems getting to the airport in the first place. I've been on the stansted express plenty of times when there has been 30min+ delays or the M11 has had an accident, which really would be cutting it very tight if you only allowed an hour to get through security and get to the gate. Though stansted does allow you to pay £3 and skip the queue, so I suppose that negates some of it.

Unless you're on advance tickets this isn't a big problem for trains, since departures are every 30mins-1hr - miss it and you can just jump on the next one.

The other problem is also if you miss a flight unless you're at heathrow or city you probably have a pretty significant wait until the next flight, plus a very punitive fare, so you have to err much more on the side of caution.

 

[Agent_c]

No, but remember a flight is rather faster than a train. And most business travellers travel hand-luggage only, which means you don't have to do any such thing - I believe at Heathrow T5 you have to clear security 35 minutes before the flight or it's assumed you won't make it, though.

Check in closed at 60 mins to the flight, you're not getting on.

A flight is faster than a train, but with all the pfaffing about, its a tie on that route.

Even the baggage check-in time for short-haul *tends*

That email I quoted from was from a short haul flight

 

[marks87]

Looking at it purely from a time point of view misses a lot of important details for some people.

For instance, I'd be reluctant to travel by train to London in standard class. So unless there's a good-price advance first fare, I'd be put off. Sure, flying economy isn't exactly luxurious either but you're only on the plane for an hour-and-a-half tops.

Flying also feels quicker because the journey is broken up into almost equal slots. From Dundee, I'm 90 minutes by car to Edinburgh, 90 minutes at the airport (including parking time), 90 minutes on the plane (including taxiing). Then it's only 15 minutes to central London (from LHR).

But I guess in most cases it comes down to personal preference.

 

[edwin_m]

The other factor is how useful the time is. I find I can do some reasonable work on a train with a laptop even in Standard, as long as I get a table and am not seated opposite someone else trying to do the same thing! With flying, unless I get to the airport very early, there doesn't seem to be enough time to get started before I have to shut down the laptop and move somewhere else.

 

[NLC1072]

To be fair I do London City to Edinburgh with British Airways, I turn up thirty minutes before flight departure, go through security within five minutes, sat and have a half pint in the departures area, get on the plane, one hour twenty minutes later I am in the arrivals hall at Edinburgh with a short tram ride after around thirty minutes then I'm in Edinburgh.

So all in all just two hours twenty minutes - hand baggage only mind.

I'm sure Glasgow isn't that much more, surely?

 

[marks87]

So all in all just two hours twenty minutes - hand baggage only mind.

From London City, you can usually add no more than about half an hour with hold bags - including collection at Edinburgh.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I find flying a far more convenient experience, if the price is right. If Im only paying pennies, the sheading of the nerves at securitty and hanging around is worth it. Not only that, the chances of screaming brats are far lower!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Check in closed at 60 mins to the flight, you're not getting on.

1. Not on BA and easyJet it doesn't, it's 45 and 40 respectively (20 at LCY). And if you are hand luggage only you can check in online. This is a reason not to use Virgin, not a reason not to fly.

As for the Advance ticket thing, some routes like LHR-EDI are quite frequent, and if travelling on a flexible air ticket you can (probably) get on the next flight as well. The price won't be dissimilar to an Anytime Return, which many peak travellers are using.

Neil