cjmillsnun
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That's fair enough, but Merseyrail is a heavily used commuter service
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Trainline- journey to printer paid for but required to buy a separate ticket
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That's fair enough, but Merseyrail is a heavily used commuter service
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RailUK Forums
They shouldn't, but the customer should not be disadvantaged as a result either. I know analogies are frowned on, but there is a comparison with air travel, where TOD means precisely that. That is what sets users' expectations, and it is the implied promise (subsequently caveated out) when purchasing online.
The railways sell tickets in this way, it is incumbent on them collectively to ensure that this retail channel works for their customers. And I mean all public services operators, TOC or non-TOC, including the metro ones that would like to pretend they're not part of the network.
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Analogies aren't frowned upon, just bad ones like that one - the airline and rail ticketing models are completely different.
I don't see how prominent messages such as those I provided in [post=3034349]post #10[/post] could be considered 'caveats'.
You miss my point about expectations, which is why I drew the analogy. The wording is clear, and to the OP's original point, I am absolutely clear that the information was there at the time of purchase, albeit not necessarily in as a clear a manner as should be expected.
My observation is a wider one of reasonable expectations. TOD came to the railways after it had become established for aviation, and that is the model that many have in mind when buying tickets. It is for the railways to implement a model that meets that expectation without double charging or otherwise inconveniencing customers.
That poses technical and financial challenges - the ultimate test case would be for TOD from somewhere like Llanbedr or Kildonan! - but we are now getting to the stage where those costs are simply part of the cost of doing business, not an add on extra.
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I'm sorry but I can't agree with "A does X therefore B must do X". To the best of my knowledge the Railway has never said that TOD is supposed to be the same as airline ticketing - it's not supposed to be and likely never will be.
The fact that some people *assume* that it is the same is neither the Railway's fault nor their concern.
In law, I agree. As a commercial operation, I could not disagree more.
When a business implements a model that is established elsewhere, but more restrictively and in a way that compels customers to go out of their way to use it, they will deservedly be criticised.
Personally, I think the answer lies more in the realm of M-ticketing than TOD, but I am underwhelmed by what I see there.
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When a business implements a model that is established elsewhere, but more restrictively and in a way that compels customers to go out of their way to use it, they will deservedly be criticised.
Personally, I think the answer lies more in the realm of M-ticketing than TOD, but I am underwhelmed by what I see there.
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And this is where your comparison breaks down. The airline industry implemented e-ticketing as a near-total replacement for paper tickets (it's just about possible to get a paper ticket but usually at considerable extra expense).
The railway for the most part still uses paper tickets, TOD is just another method by which you can get your piece of paper. There are a few similarities but by no means are the two system the same (nor are they meant to be).
But as perceived by the ordinary customer? It is not for the seller to tell the customer how he must see things, but to provide a service that meets the customer's reasonable expectations.
RoRA and the bylaws are how the railway are able to enforce the conditions of travel, not the basis on which they should engage with their customers. There is a profound difference between the two, and it saddens me that Britain's railways appear too often not to grasp that difference.
Trainline do not meet existing best practice elsewhere (and, if they were seeking a marketing consent, have a screen design that would probably fail to meet forthcoming GDPR legal minima), some TOCs do not facilitate collection and there are inconsistent and inadequate arrangements to deal with obvious, predictable, scenarios. While OP was in the wrong to behave as he did, he should never have been placed in the position he found himself in.
That is a collective failure by the railway industry, compounded by the OP's inattention and behaviour on the day. No reputable business should be operating in a way that makes the circumstances of this incident likely.
RoRA and the bylaws are how the railway are able to enforce the conditions of travel, not the basis on which they should engage with their customers. There is a profound difference between the two, and it saddens me that Britain's railways appear too often not to grasp that difference.
Trainline do not meet existing best practice elsewhere (and, if they were seeking a marketing consent, have a screen design that would probably fail to meet forthcoming GDPR legal minima), some TOCs do not facilitate collection and there are inconsistent and inadequate arrangements to deal with obvious, predictable, scenarios. While OP was in the wrong to behave as he did, he should never have been placed in the position he found himself in.
That is a collective failure by the railway industry, compounded by the OP's inattention and behaviour on the day. No reputable business should be operating in a way that makes the circumstances of this incident likely.
I think that's an example of expecting the tail to wag the dog.
Since analogies are in vogue, that's like walking into Visini's Italian restaurant and ordering the lamb biriani:
"We don't make curries, we're an Italian restaurant."
"But I walked in here expecting you to have an Indian menu. 'Visini's' sounds like an Indian name. I don't see why I should be denied my right to a curry just because you are an Italian restaurant."
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100andthirty
Member
A much better analogy is an example where someone orders a fridge on line and then be told in small print thst they only deliver to the next town not to the home address
The OP had the simple expectation that he could buy a ticket from a to b via c and not have to go to somewhere like c to collect it.
Rail companies may be protected by bylaws and conditions of travel. However they are also subject to consumer law and consumer law requires such conditions have to be fair.
It is so easy for on line sales of tickets to be valid without all this nonsense with TVMs and random debit/credit cards. I look to the DfT to rapidly instruct it franchise holders to fix this!
The OP had the simple expectation that he could buy a ticket from a to b via c and not have to go to somewhere like c to collect it.
Rail companies may be protected by bylaws and conditions of travel. However they are also subject to consumer law and consumer law requires such conditions have to be fair.
It is so easy for on line sales of tickets to be valid without all this nonsense with TVMs and random debit/credit cards. I look to the DfT to rapidly instruct it franchise holders to fix this!
If it was in small print I would agree with you but, as demonstrated in my earlier posts [post=3034349]here[/post] and [post=3038342]here[/post], it is made pretty clear before you pay that the fridge can't be delivered to your address.
100andthirty
Member
Point taken NajaB, but I was intending to illustrate the point (probably badly) the railway is trying to encourage on-line sales but not making it easy for people to complete the transaction easily. For example I can by a ticket on Virgin which is entirely on my phone. This should be universal by now. I can buy a ticket which I print at home. This should be universal by now.
I agree that the lack of progress on mobile and electronic tickets has been slow, but the railway has to deal with issues that airlines do not - for the most part airlines don't operate on a 'turn up and go' model, and airports generally have excellent communications infrastructure and are set up so that access to the plane is tightly controlled such that (in theory at least) they know exactly how many people are onboard at all times.
But then you get stupid implementations of e ticketing like that by Greater Anglia (
https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/tickets-fares/daily-tickets/mobile-tickets ) . I can buy an e-ticket from Norwich to Stowmarket for any time of day but if I want to go to Liverpool Street then I can only get an off peak ticket.
They also only offer day tickets as e-tickets...
BluePenguin
On Moderation
Not that it can helps now, but tickets can be collected from any ticket office or machine using the reference number in the email. Virgin and train line are very naughty to be misleading people into thinking that tickets can only be retreived at a single specified station.
I think you have a perfect argument against train line although not that this is of any interest to a TOC. However I hope to have helped educated you for next time.
I think you have a perfect argument against train line although not that this is of any interest to a TOC. However I hope to have helped educated you for next time.
Sadly, it was only mis-education. You can't collect TOD tickets at Merseyrail stations.
As your opening sentence is incorrect, you have not helped anyone.
BluePenguin
On Moderation
Right, and what are you hoping to gain by saying this?
The opening sentence IS correct as tickets can be collected from any station with the exception of Mersey rail and any other stations without a ticket office or machine.
I was only reminding the OP that tickets can be collected from other stations than the one specified online
I am afraid your comment is not helpful to anyone neither. Plus I did not need to be told that after the member above politely informed me that tickets couldn't be collected in the way I was describing which is unfortunate for the OP
I was doing my best to help. The fact that I was not able to does not need you pointing it out again lol.
His comment is completely helpful. People might otherwise have followed your incorrect comment, gone out to a Merseyrail station expecting to be able to pick up their ticket, and then been prosecuted as a result of being unable to do so. In addition to this, station ticket offices generally don't issue ToD tickets unless the machines are broken AND the station would normally be able to issue ToD tickets. He's trying to both correct your erroneous statement (which is an understandable one to make), and ensure nobody else reading the thread gets the wrong idea!
OK, I am concerned that a month after the that was first opened and twelve pages of discussion later we have now drifted off course from the OP's original situation they sought help for. So I'm closing the thread.
I think we can summarize much of the extensive discussion by simply saying that Merseyrail do not offer ticket on delivery (TOD) via their tickets machines. It's a pretty poor situation, but that's nevertheless what it is.
If people want to discuss the merits or disbenefits of Merseyrail's approach, or the principle of TOD in general, might I suggest a thread in the Fares and Policy section of the forum?
If the OP has an update or if there is anything of direct substantive relevance to the OP's case then please get in touch with the forum staff who will consider re-opening the thread.
I think we can summarize much of the extensive discussion by simply saying that Merseyrail do not offer ticket on delivery (TOD) via their tickets machines. It's a pretty poor situation, but that's nevertheless what it is.
If people want to discuss the merits or disbenefits of Merseyrail's approach, or the principle of TOD in general, might I suggest a thread in the Fares and Policy section of the forum?
If the OP has an update or if there is anything of direct substantive relevance to the OP's case then please get in touch with the forum staff who will consider re-opening the thread.
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