Trainline- journey to printer paid for but required to buy a separate ticket

[najaB]

We know they *don't*, but I was wondering if they *could* . Have MR decided not to implement ToD or can't the machines do it or some technical reason?

Ah, sorry, misunderstood your post. AFAIK it's a technical reason inasmuch as they have chosen not to connect to that part of the system.

 

[gray1404]

They have quite simply, chosen not to connect to the system with no regard for the customer.

 

[Dai Corner]

They have quite simply, chosen not to connect to the system with no regard for the customer.

Thanks for the confirmation. Naja too.

I'm sure getting paid twice for journeys like the OPs is purely a 'side benefit' :-x

 

[35B]

I've had a similar issue a few times with passengers boarding at Pershore, which has no TVM at all, and invariably they wave turquoise Trainline app booking confirmations at me. Invariably on closer inspection they say "There is no ticket vending machine at Pershore. You must travel to another station to pick up your tickets before travel."

Quite often, as discussed in this and another thread recently, the default response from the Trainline generation seems to be to flounce around / undermine staff / refuse to accept that they might possibly be in the wrong (and I would still feature in this age group!)

Personally I think every station should be equipped with ToD (and, for what it's worth, the ToD function should be enabled on our mobile TIS) but it wouldn't fix the problem, which is that people don't read anything, and that everything is someone else's fault.

The 'customer experience' department at my TOC has now decided that we should fill in a manual authority to travel form for such cases, which just muddies the water further.

Viewed from outside, it's hard to see why if I wish to travel from Pershore (other wayside halts available) I should have to travel elsewhere to collect my ticket. I'm with the 'Customer Experience' people, but wish they'd do their job properly and ensure proper equipment rather than impose a fudge.

 

[sbros]

ARTIC TROLL i get the point that you need a ticket to ride. I've accepted that. We've established this was hidden away in some obscure terms and conditions which no one ever looks at. Thing is the general commercial convention is that you don't pay twice for a single commodity. Apparently the railways are run on a different and singular convention, Who knew??
Notably you've not dealt with any of the legal points i've raised; all you seem to know is that you have to have a ticket.
Regarding my encounter with the surly guy on the counter you weren't there and you not in a position to have an opinion.
This dispute was caused by a failure in the process. The application didn't give a fair warning that the ticket could only be picked up remotely and consequently you'd have to pay twice for the same trip. This is unacceptable in any form particularly in a public service.
Please don't bother responding this topic is now expended and besides I'm going on holiday tomorrow morning and have had enough of it

 

[najaB]

ARTIC TROLL i get the point that you need a ticket to ride. I've accepted that.

Good.

We've established this was hidden away in some obscure terms and conditions which no one ever looks at.

Failure to read the T&Cs doesn't render them invalid.

Thing is the general commercial convention is that you don't pay twice for a single commodity. Apparently the railways are run on a different and singular convention, Who knew??

Pretty much all business operate on the basis that if you can't prove you've paid for something then you aren't entitled to it.

Notably you've not dealt with any of the legal points i've raised; all you seem to know is that you have to have a ticket.

Your legal points have been discussed previously and we have explained why you don't have a defendable case. It's your choice to accept that advice or not. Based solely on your posting here I suspect, unfortunately, that you'll not accept it.

This dispute was caused by a failure in the process. The application didn't give a fair warning that the ticket could only be picked up remotely...

Sorry, but that just wouldn't wash in a court of law. When using TheTrainline app if you pick a route where eTickets aren't available...

My expectation when using the app was that I would be issued with an e-ticket as occurs on other routes.

...then you are clearly informed that you need to collect your ticket (see post #10). It also highlights in red that the station you have chosen doesn't have ToD facilities. It was your failure to engage fully in the purchase process that caused this issue. Since you haven't named the station involved I'm unable to test it for myself and so will assume that app exhibited the same behaviour but you chose to ignore it.

..." and consequently you'd have to pay twice for the same trip. This is unacceptable in any form particularly in a public service.

You only ended up in the situation where you had to 'pay twice' because you made assumptions rather than reading the information that was presented to you.

Please don't bother responding this topic is now expended and besides I'm going on holiday tomorrow morning and have had enough of it

Enjoy your holiday.

 

[cjmillsnun]

ARTIC TROLL i get the point that you need a ticket to ride. I've accepted that. We've established this was hidden away in some obscure terms and conditions which no one ever looks at. Thing is the general commercial convention is that you don't pay twice for a single commodity. Apparently the railways are run on a different and singular convention, Who knew??
Notably you've not dealt with any of the legal points i've raised; all you seem to know is that you have to have a ticket.
Regarding my encounter with the surly guy on the counter you weren't there and you not in a position to have an opinion.
This dispute was caused by a failure in the process. The application didn't give a fair warning that the ticket could only be picked up remotely and consequently you'd have to pay twice for the same trip. This is unacceptable in any form particularly in a public service.
Please don't bother responding this topic is now expended and besides I'm going on holiday tomorrow morning and have had enough of it

Sadly in a legal position you are in the wrong. My last post was quite blunt on this, however I do empathise with you in that Merseyrail should allow ticket on departure.

However Trainline (not a site I have purchased tickets from in a long time because they charge booking fees) does highlight this on the app when you go to buy tickets.

 

[furlong]

Good.
Failure to read the T&Cs doesn't render them invalid.

But if attention isn't drawn to important terms that would have had a material effect on the decision to enter into the contract it might cause enforceability problems.

Your legal points have been discussed previously and we have explained why you don't have a defendable case.

But these are merely opinions expressed anonymously on a internet forum. Seek advice from a local solicitor if you want a professional view as to whether or not the sorts of arguments you present might have merit in a real court if argued well.

 

[najaB]

But if attention isn't drawn to important terms that would have had a material effect on the decision to enter into the contract it might cause enforceability problems.

I agree. The OP could attempt that argument in court but the 'By buying this ticket you are agreeing to the T&Cs' blub (not an exact quote, obviously) was presented when the app is first installed and again on the screen where the 'Pay now' button is presented.

And it doesn't help them at all with the fact that they didn't pay the Penalty Fare.

But these are merely opinions expressed anonymously on a internet forum. Seek advice from a local solicitor if you want a professional view as to whether or not the sorts of arguments you present might have merit in a real court if argued well.

Again, the OP is free to instruct a solicitor if they want to, but as an anonymous Internet user that seems like throwing good money after bad.

 

[Haywain]

But these are merely opinions expressed anonymously on a internet forum. Seek advice from a local solicitor if you want a professional view as to whether or not the sorts of arguments you present might have merit in a real court if argued well.

The arguments presented might elicit sympathy, but I'm sure many people in court have been found guilty by magistrates who have been sympathetic to their case.

 

[najaB]

The arguments presented might elicit sympathy, but I'm sure many people in court have been found guilty by magistrates who have been sympathetic to their case.

Especially when the root cause of the issue was the inability to tell the difference between this:

And this:


It's hardly going to strengthen the "It's all too confusing" arguement, given that the OP is apparently used to using mTickets.

 

[Greenback]

I really don't think that it's worth pursuing the line of defence that it's all too confusing and there was a failur eof process, sbros. It's your right to do so if you want to, but I reckon it's a high risk strategy that could cost you a lot more money than just paying what they've asked for.

 

[Tetchytyke]

But if attention isn't drawn to important terms that would have had a material effect on the decision to enter into the contract it might cause enforceability problems.

If a particularly onerous clause is not highlighted before purchase then it is not binding. All of us who did the first year of a law degree will remember Shoe Lane Parking which dealt with all of this.

On a customer service level, I think Trainline leave a lot to be desired. They gloss over the pitfalls to try and fit into their marketing spiel of simplicity. Alas, sometimes the herd go in the easy direction and it's not always a bad thing to follow them.

Also on a customer service level I quite agree that it is unfortunate that Merseyrail have chosen not to allow ToD collection at their stations.

But customer service doesn't affect the contract.

I would consider it relatively self-explanatory that you need a ticket to travel, and that if you do not have the ticket (for whatever reason) you need to buy a new ticket or otherwise obtain permission to travel. Permission was not granted. Therefore a new ticket was required to get to a location where the OP could obtain his ticket.

But these are merely opinions expressed anonymously on a internet forum. Seek advice from a local solicitor if you want a professional view as to whether or not the sorts of arguments you present might have merit in a real court if argued well.

Indeed. I am not a professional. If the OP does not agree with me, they are free to do as they wish.

My anonymous internet opinion is that the OP has cost themselves £70 because they didn't want to pay a fiver. My anonymous opinion is also that if they continue to pursue this then these costs will increase. My opinion would be cough up and complain. It would have been much easier to do that when the cost was a fiver. They're free to ignore this opinion if they believe differently. I hope they have a nice holiday.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Also on a customer service level I quite agree that it is unfortunate that Merseyrail have chosen not to allow ToD collection at their stations.
.

They don't offer a workaround either. It's mentioned above, if a manned and open ticket office is unable to print the ticket, it should offer an "authority to travel" as far as the next station where the ticket could be printed. That could be made a condition of a franchise. Is there any particular reason why pre printed authority to travel documents to the usual destination, in this case Lime Street, couldn't be available? Just date stamp them and it's a matter of seconds to issue them.

 

[najaB]

They don't offer a workaround either. It's mentioned above, if a manned and open ticket office is unable to print the ticket, it should offer an "authority to travel" as far as the next station where the ticket could be printed.

The thing is, they are perfectly able to *sell* the ticket you require, what they aren't able to do is allow you to collect a ticket that you have purchased through a third-party.

So the ticket you require is available.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

The thing is, they are perfectly able to *sell* the ticket you require, what they aren't able to do is allow you to collect a ticket that you have purchased through a third-party.

I believe the OP was buying a flexible ticket, so yes. What if, though, he wanted an Advance ticket and didn't want to visit the local station until the day of travel?

 

[Tetchytyke]

if a manned and open ticket office is unable to print the ticket, it should offer an "authority to travel" as far as the next station where the ticket could be printed.

It isn't that Merseyrail are unable to print the ticket, it is that they are unwilling to do so.

They could offer it. They could authorise travel. But they don't. And that's all that is relevant to the OP's situation.

New thread for the rest of the discussion: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=3038523

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe the OP was buying a flexible ticket, so yes. What if, though, he wanted an Advance ticket and didn't want to visit the local station until the day of travel?

And what if the TOC is VTWC so you want an Advance one way and a SVH the other? Stations can't sell those. Though really that needs to be solved by allowing stations to sell them. Though because Merseyrail is a very dense network which is almost fully staffed visiting a station isn't going to be a massive trial - my Dad does each morning to get a free Metro with no intention of actually travelling!

 

[Gareth Marston]

We had what i will dub "an internet purchaser assumer" in yesterday who was too busy going off on one abut the fact she had the wrong ticket and it couldn't be her fault she just didn't listen to anything I said.

Australian lady in her mid 40's came in asks for single to Shrewsbury so far so good, "do you know anything about the Heart of Wales and why they don't answer their e mails"? Slightly odd I admit. As the conversation went along it transpired she was planning to travel over it today from Shrewsbury. "Can you look at my tickets" I oblige turns out she had a e mail confirmation from ATW website with a TOD collection reference for going on the 1315 from Shrewsbury to Swansea via Hereford, they were AP's as well.

I broke the bad news to her and was trying to explain that she needed to contact ATW direct to cancel these and get new ones via Llandovery, however she was too busy going on about "don't we want people to travel on the Heart of Wales etc etc" A degree of sympathy as she assumed traveling between the two was via the Heart of Wales but not realizing theirs two routes but she was too busy not listening and shouting the odds about it.

Mistakes and misunderstandings do happen and there are ways round it, people behavior often negates this. The lady then went out on the platform and started accosting other passengers about the PIS screens seemingly having trouble understanding them......

 

[philthetube]

I've had a similar issue a few times with passengers boarding at Pershore, which has no TVM at all, and invariably they wave turquoise Trainline app booking confirmations at me. Invariably on closer inspection they say "There is no ticket vending machine at Pershore. You must travel to another station to pick up your tickets before travel."

Pershore is a really good example, for anyone with and advance to need to spend half a day travelling to Worcester to collect a ticket Is terrible customer service. what the rules say is irrelevant the concern should be having a customer friendly railway. If it is acceptable for people to board stations like pershore without a ticket then surely it should be possible to create a work round, even if this involves paying for a ticket with an immediate refund available. Much better if the guard can issue the ticket.

 

[najaB]

....even if this involves paying for a ticket with an immediate refund available. Much better if the guard can issue the ticket.

The NRCoT specifically say that you can buy at your earliest opportunity with no penalty in terms of price.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The NRCoT specifically say that you can buy at your earliest opportunity with no penalty in terms of price.

Standard procedure on Cambrian Coast is to ask the customer to get out at Machynlleth and go to the Booking Office there. It being the first opportunity. 2 hours and 56 miles from Pwllheli!

 

[island]

Pershore is a really good example, for anyone with and advance to need to spend half a day travelling to Worcester to collect a ticket Is terrible customer service. what the rules say is irrelevant the concern should be having a customer friendly railway. If it is acceptable for people to board stations like pershore without a ticket then surely it should be possible to create a work round, even if this involves paying for a ticket with an immediate refund available. Much better if the guard can issue the ticket.

The customer can choose to have the tickets posted out.

 

[rs101]

The customer can choose to have the tickets posted out.

If they order far enough in advance or are prepared to pay handsomely

£1.95 for second class mail and only available if tickets are ordered more than 7 days before travel.
£7.50 for next day delivery.

 

[35B]

If they order far enough in advance or are prepared to pay handsomely



£1.95 for second class mail and only available if tickets are ordered more than 7 days before travel.

£7.50 for next day delivery.

And even that not available for tickets bought on a Friday afternoon for Monday.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Joe Paxton]

If they order far enough in advance or are prepared to pay handsomely

£1.95 for second class mail and only available if tickets are ordered more than 7 days before travel.
£7.50 for next day delivery.

Some TOC sites do not charge for First Class postal delivery. e.g. GWR, Greater Anglia, c2c, the Govia TOCs (London Midland, Southeastern and GTR).

Who charges £1.95 for Second Class postal delivery?

 

[najaB]

And even that not available for tickets bought on a Friday afternoon for Monday.

That is very odd as anything put in the mail by last post on Saturday should be delivered on Monday if sent First Class and is guaranteed to arrive on Monday if sent by Special Delivery. If the delivery address is a residence, you'll normally get anything mailed before last post on the Friday delivered on Saturday morning.

 

[rs101]

Some TOC sites do not charge for First Class postal delivery. e.g. GWR, Greater Anglia, c2c, the Govia TOCs (London Midland, Southeastern and GTR).

Who charges £1.95 for Second Class postal delivery?

The company mentioned in the title of this thread...

 

[rs101]

That is very odd as anything put in the mail by last post on Saturday should be delivered on Monday if sent First Class and is guaranteed to arrive on Monday if sent by Special Delivery. If the delivery address is a residence, you'll normally get anything mailed before last post on the Friday delivered on Saturday morning.

Maybe in urban areas - out here in North East Essex, first class item posted on a Friday afternoon by bulk mail user like Train line wouldn't arrive before Tuesday.

 

[island]

The Royal Mail delivery targets apply nationwide.