Trainline- journey to printer paid for but required to buy a separate ticket

[Joe Paxton]

People tend to shun the post option because it costs. I suspect a lot of people use the likes of Trainline and TOD because that's how they perceive you buy rail tickets, in advance on the internet not realizing that the railway is still basically a walk on one. Were in a rural area and not having a TVM here we issue TOD's and see what folk are buying - people can come in from quite some distance (15 miles away is not uncommon) to collect Anytime Day Returns a couple of days before they travel and have paid the extras the 3rd party retailers like to add. We do try to educate them! After all if some people think you have to buy Anytime Day Returns on the internet in advance and come and collect them how many more decide not to bother as its too complicated?

Perhaps it'd be an idea if the TOCs own booking sites explicitly flagged up the fact that walk-up fares can be bought on the day. (Subject to queues, the ticket office actually being open, the screen of the ticket machine being visible in bright sunlight etc etc!)

 

[najaB]

Question fully resolved by post 9 or 10. Then 40+ posts on the T+Cs and mechanics of no use to the OP.

I'd say post #2 nailed it, really. It's been an interesting side discussion since then.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Perhaps it'd be an idea if the TOCs own booking sites explicitly flagged up the fact that walk-up fares can be bought on the day. (Subject to queues, the ticket office actually being open, the screen of the ticket machine being visible in bright sunlight etc etc!)

I suspect the fact the industry is so fragmented no one knows what it wants as a collective. Trainline started off as the industry responding to the general trend of online purchases but was sold on to a third party who sees online rail purchases as a means of making profit so draws in the unwise and unsuspecting general public promoting the belief that this is how you you purchase rail tickets and that you are getting a discount - after all everything's cheaper on the internet isn't it?

The TOC's themselves are notoriously poor promoters and advertisers of the railway so by default do little to combat the online misconception. They all have their own agendas Virgin would love their trains to be book ahead only via their own website, the Ex NSE TOC's are just swamped by the daily battle of the overloaded London commute to give it any attention as they live off seasons and Oyster. Others see online purchase as a means to reduce costs I.e staff headcount whilst others such as DFT love the complexity as this ensures increased revenue as people click on the wrong ticket type and pay more.

 

[island]

I'd say that is borderline. The terms are significantly less visible than the instruction to pay, and below it on screen.

That compares very poorly to the Virgin East Coast website, which requires the user to tick a box acknowledging the NRCoT before the "pay" button is activated.


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Fixed that for you. We are not in America.

 

[sheff1]

Fixed that for you. We are not in America.

The various references to "slam dunk" suggest some think we are.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I suspect the fact the industry is so fragmented no one knows what it wants as a collective. Trainline started off as the industry responding to the general trend of online purchases but was sold on to a third party who sees online rail purchases as a means of making profit so draws in the unwise and unsuspecting general public promoting the belief that this is how you you purchase rail tickets and that you are getting a discount - after all everything's cheaper on the internet isn't it?

The TOC's themselves are notoriously poor promoters and advertisers of the railway so by default do little to combat the online misconception. They all have their own agendas Virgin would love their trains to be book ahead only via their own website, the Ex NSE TOC's are just swamped by the daily battle of the overloaded London commute to give it any attention as they live off seasons and Oyster. Others see online purchase as a means to reduce costs I.e staff headcount whilst others such as DFT love the complexity as this ensures increased revenue as people click on the wrong ticket type and pay more.

A fair analysis I think apart from the bit in bold, which I can't agree with - the DfT may be many things, but it's doesn't actively want people to buy the wrong train tickets.

Just this weekend I had someone asking me which website to buy their ticket from - the Trainline advertising had obviously worked at some level as they hadn't considered buying from a TOC website. I was then contacted by them the day afterwards because they were completely bewildered by having to choose the times of their outward and return trains despite wanting a flexible Off-Peak Return, and they couldn't really comprehend it when I told them they could choose any train as it just didn't matter (this was on the Southern site, so the Govia booking engine, but many of the others are the same).

Yes they could buy at their local station but (with I think some justification) they don't have faith in the ticket office being open when it should be. Yes they could use the ticket machine but they find doing so a bit difficult, and get in a fuss when there's a queue behind them, and then there's the sun shining on the display making it difficult to see (also applies to collecting tickets of course, but at least the business of choosing the right ticket and Railcard has already been done) etc.

Yes they are a bit bewildered and scramble-minded about it all in a way that I find a little difficult to comprehend, but I think they're hardly alone amongst the overall populace in this. And then to add to all this they will be travelling by Southern and so their journey may well be disrupted by the ongoing dispute, providing more fuel to their general animus towards the railway

 

[Joe Paxton]

The various references to "slam dunk" suggest some think we are.

The then CIA Director George Tenet's use of the phrase in relation to Iraq 'having WMDs' rather poisons its use in my mind!

 

[Gareth Marston]

A fair analysis I think apart from the bit in bold, which I can't agree with - the DfT may be many things, but it's doesn't actively want people to buy the wrong train tickets.

Just this weekend I had someone asking me which website to buy their ticket from - the Trainline advertising had obviously worked at some level as they hadn't considered buying from a TOC website. I was then contacted by them the day afterwards because they were completely bewildered by having to choose the times of their outward and return trains despite wanting a flexible Off-Peak Return, and they couldn't really comprehend it when I told them they could choose any train as it just didn't matter (this was on the Southern site, so the Govia booking engine, but many of the others are the same).

Yes they could buy at their local station but (with I think some justification) they don't have faith in the ticket office being open when it should be. Yes they could use the ticket machine but they find doing so a bit difficult, and get in a fuss when there's a queue behind them, and then there's the sun shining on the display making it difficult to see (also applies to collecting tickets of course, but at least the business of choosing the right ticket and Railcard has already been done) etc.

Yes they are a bit bewildered and scramble-minded about it all in a way that I find a little difficult to comprehend, but I think they're hardly alone amongst the overall populace in this. And then to add to all this they will be travelling by Southern and so their journey may well be disrupted by the ongoing dispute, providing more fuel to their general animus towards the railway

We had a technological near miss at Newtown today.A German couple in their early 60's turned up At the booking office a good 20 minutes before their train to Pwllheli. The lady presented her mobile phone to me saying she had bought their ticket online. Turned out it was an ATW M ticket confirmation for 2 anytime day returns from Newtown to Pwllheli, so far so good, the couple didn't know what to do. I looked for the button to activate their ticket for them and coulldnt find it. Having been rummaging around a bit I got a message up saying the ticket itself may have been downloaded to another device. The man then produced an I pad from his rucksack and I found 4 SDR's to Pwllheli. I activated two of them and informed them of the over purchase. Of course this all took time and caused a queue in the booking office!

Of course it would have been a lot simpler and efficient for the customer, other customers and staff at no extra cost to just buy the tickets from the Booking Office or off the conductor!

 

[MarlowDonkey]

People tend to shun the post option because it costs.

Many of the TOC run sites will offer free postage.

Among those sites that don't are Cross Country, Trainline and Redspottedhanky.

If your usual station has neither machine nor booking office, the alternative of buying on the train runs into the hazard frequently discussed on this site as to the extent, if at all, you delay your journey to purchase a ticket at an intermediate station if the conductor doesn't show.

 

[Joe Paxton]

We had a technological near miss at Newtown today.A German couple in their early 60's turned up At the booking office a good 20 minutes before their train to Pwllheli. The lady presented her mobile phone to me saying she had bought their ticket online. Turned out it was an ATW M ticket confirmation for 2 anytime day returns from Newtown to Pwllheli, so far so good, the couple didn't know what to do. I looked for the button to activate their ticket for them and coulldnt find it. Having been rummaging around a bit I got a message up saying the ticket itself may have been downloaded to another device. The man then produced an I pad from his rucksack and I found 4 SDR's to Pwllheli. I activated two of them and informed them of the over purchase. Of course this all took time and caused a queue in the booking office!

Of course it would have been a lot simpler and efficient for the customer, other customers and staff at no extra cost to just buy the tickets from the Booking Office or off the conductor!

Ouch... and of course your helpfulness gets no credit when it comes to the ticket sales figures.

Unless I'm doing something clever (splitting tickets etc) then I'd always buy from the ticket office if it's available and there's no big queue... however it's the 'availability' or otherwise which is one of the problems that my earlier tale of the somewhat befuddled acquaintance encounters - when open, they actually find the ticket office staff very helpful, problem being it's not always open when it's supposed to be, hence wasted trips, frustration and ultimately lost business.

 

[LowLevel]

Glad to hear of a helpful, knowledgeable third party booking office - the ones I have to work with are far more trouble than they're worth, poorly trained (far less time in training than their equivalents at in house offices) and staffed by underpaid and demotivated people that vary from at best misguided due to the former to at worst downright belligerent and unhelpful.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Ouch... and of course your helpfulness gets no credit when it comes to the ticket sales figures.

Unless I'm doing something clever (splitting tickets etc) then I'd always buy from the ticket office if it's available and there's no big queue... however it's the 'availability' or otherwise which is one of the problems that my earlier tale of the somewhat befuddled acquaintance encounters - when open, they actually find the ticket office staff very helpful, problem being it's not always open when it's supposed to be, hence wasted trips, frustration and ultimately lost business.

A lot of first time users on these M tickets get shown by staff how to activate the tickets in fairness. Whether they do the same again i don't know.

Last time I bought a ticket in a non ATW booking office was in Pitlochry the clerk had trains going to Perth and Inverness crossing there so was up against it a bit! We of course got there in plenty of time but there was a queue.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Ouch... and of course your helpfulness gets no credit when it comes to the ticket sales figures.

Unless I'm doing something clever (splitting tickets etc) then I'd always buy from the ticket office if it's available and there's no big queue... however it's the 'availability' or otherwise which is one of the problems that my earlier tale of the somewhat befuddled acquaintance encounters - when open, they actually find the ticket office staff very helpful, problem being it's not always open when it's supposed to be, hence wasted trips, frustration and ultimately lost business.

They helped themselves by turning up early and being pleasant and also the office was relatively quite and of course the device they downloaded the ticket to was with them as well but what a faff....

Could easily have gone the other way somewhere else boarded a train in PF zone didn't have device that the ticket was on and wafted a confirmation e mail on another device at an RPI.....

We have a policy as such here of seeing what folk have got when the tickets printed off and then politely pointing out if they've paid extras on Trainline and the like when they've just bought a walk on fare or two AP singles more expensive than the walk on fare. Quite a few are shocked to find that there Off Peak, CDR SDR, & Anytime tickets are the same price on the day. One of the common reasons they give for buying online is that they didn't know whether the booking office would be open and wanted to make sure they had a ticket before traveling. Yet in many cases they have driven from some distance to collect the tickets - how could they be sure we were open to collect?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Trainline trade off the fact that people perceive buying in advance on the internet to be cheaper, not just for trains but for pretty much anything really. Holidays, planes, books, DVDs, etc are all cheaper on the internet. Stands to reason that train tickets will be too, doesn't it.

FWIW I think Trainline do hide how awkward it can be to buy tickets to collect on departure if your station doesn't offer it, for whatever reason. But that's an issue with Trainline because they make their money by getting people to buy online through them, paying the extra fees and charges. It's not a TOC issue, regardless of why ToD is not available at a particular station.

As for Merseyrail being part of National Rail, they are the same as London Overground: officially they are part of National Rail, but they don't want to be.

My bluntness with the OP was more about their attitude. They were told what they had to do, they didn't like it, they flounced. They were not "mistaken" or "confused", they were petulant. That petulance has a price. It's currently £70 and rising.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Trainline trade off the fact that people perceive buying in advance on the internet to be cheaper, not just for trains but for pretty much anything really. Holidays, planes, books, DVDs, etc are all cheaper on the internet. Stands to reason that train tickets will be too, doesn't it.

FWIW I think Trainline do hide how awkward it can be to buy tickets to collect on departure if your station doesn't offer it, for whatever reason. But that's an issue with Trainline because they make their money by getting people to buy online through them, paying the extra fees and charges. It's not a TOC issue, regardless of why ToD is not available at a particular station.

As for Merseyrail being part of National Rail, they are the same as London Overground: officially they are part of National Rail, but they don't want to be.

My bluntness with the OP was more about their attitude. They were told what they had to do, they didn't like it, they flounced. They were not "mistaken" or "confused", they were petulant. That petulance has a price. It's currently £70 and rising.

The inherent weakness in TOD is that it relies on people reading and understanding whats required and then acting on it. Its not "instant". And as i outlined above with M tickets people can still find a way to mess it up. I wont be surprised if we get a thread on here "but i bought and downloaded the ticket onto a device i left at home its so unfair they are prosecuting me"

These new methods of purchase can cause more problems and hassle than their worth sometimes.

 

[35B]

The inherent weakness in TOD is that it relies on people reading and understanding whats required and then acting on it. Its not "instant". And as i outlined above with M tickets people can still find a way to mess it up. I wont be surprised if we get a thread on here "but i bought and downloaded the ticket onto a device i left at home its so unfair they are prosecuting me"



These new methods of purchase can cause more problems and hassle than their worth sometimes.

Agreed, but a lot of that is to do with the design of the service. Very little of my interaction with the railway when buying tickets seems to have been designed around "here's something we want to sell you, how can we make it easy to buy".


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[Tetchytyke]

Very little of my interaction with the railway when buying tickets seems to have been designed around "here's something we want to sell you, how can we make it easy to buy".

It depends. A lot of the problems with Trainline, IMO, are to do with the fact they gloss over the pitfalls in order to make it look as though they are easier to buy from.

These new methods of purchase can cause more problems and hassle than their worth sometimes.

There is something to be said for the certainty of a paper ticket. There is no confusion here: you either have it or you don't.

I use contactless in London as it is cheaper but I don't like it: you don't know what you're spending and it can get very pricey if you make a mistake touching in or touching out. My Metro season ticket is on an ITSO smartcard and it's the same issue, especially when the validators are playing up (they often are on Tyneside).

 

[Greenback]

The question has been answered and the OP has not returned for a while. I;m therefore closing this thread.

Please feel free to start a new thread if you want to discuss the side issues to this incident.

 

[sbros]

Thank you for all your responses. I see the original thread has now been closed so just to finish off, I set out how I see things.

Correspondence from MR only makes reference to a breach of Section 5(3)(a). I initially took the view shared by Harpers Tate (12 & 49) that as I’d paid the fare in advance that there was no such breach. It now appears based on the general consensus of this forum that this is an open and shut matter and technically I’m guilty of the crime on the simple basis that I didn’t hold a valid ticket at the time of departure. As explained by you this is a breach of the T & C of purchase. Incidentally the Merseyrail bylaws which appear to be the same as the national ones in this respect, shouldn’t apply in this instance as, although I didn’t hold a ticket at the time of travel this was because ‘there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey’. Please correct me if I’m wrong in this respect..

I’m surprised that the complainant seems to be able to widen its grounds at this advanced stage. Bearing in mind I’m a layman in such affairs, it’s also disappointing that MR has not seen fit to set out sufficiently its legal case, nor deal with issues I’ve raised in relation to its stated grounds. Assuming MR can it fact widen its grounds there seems little point in contesting this matter further other than from a customer service angle.

Nevertheless I remain incredulous that I’m expected to pay twice for the same service. This shouldn’t stand on the basis of common sense. Merseyrail run a public service and seem incapable of distinguishing my circumstances from that of a regular fare dodger. I ignored the warning of the attendant at the local station as I thought the situation was absurd and illogical and also when I expressed this point of view he couldn’t cope and started shouting at me. Neither did I read the Trainline T& Cs prior to pressing the pay button. In both these respects I think I behaved exactly as the vast majority of people would do in these circumstances. The inspector who picked me up at the other end did show some sympathy and commented that this breach occurred quite regularly.I’m not holding my breath but hopefully MR will at least in light of my complaint seek to address the failures in the process as identified by the forum.

At no stage in this saga have I flounced about, had a temper tantrum like a little toddler or behaved petulantly. Although I’m otherwise grateful for Arctic Troll’s contribution such accusations/assumptions are without foundation and unhelpful.

Thanks again for all your help

 

[yorkie]

As the OP has now returned I have reopened the thread. Please stay on-topic.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Nevertheless I remain incredulous that I’m expected to pay twice for the same service. This shouldn’t stand on the basis of common sense.

If you do not have your ticket then you have no evidence of having paid the fare. If you lose your ticket you have to pay again. If you do not collect your ticket you have to pay again. It is the same principle.

It is not "illogical": if travelling on a booking reference was acceptable, they wouldn't bother making you have a ticket.

Whilst I have sympathy at the point that you should be able to collect your ticket at a Merseyrail station, the point is that you can't. Therefore if you haven't had it posted to you or you haven't collected it before travel, you have to buy another ticket to get to somewhere where you can collect it. The same applies where a station has no ticketing facilities. You have to buy a ticket to a station where you can collect your ticket.

The ticketing facilities for the retail of tickets were working. You could- and should- have bought a ticket to Lime Street. The fact the TVMs did not offer the service that you wanted is irrelevant, because it is specifically advertised that the TVMs do not offer that service. Perhaps they should, but they don't.

Whilst I was not there, I remain skeptical that the ticket office staff member "started shouting" without provocation, and wonder how exactly you expressed your "incredulity".

 

[gray1404]

Have you paid the £75 out of court settlement before the deadline? You see now how it would have been such cheaper to get a single to Liverpool. There is also a chance that Merseyrail may have considered refunding that ticket if you contacted customer relations to explain afterwards.

If I had been the RPI then I would have used my discreation to come up to the TVM with you at Lime Street and get the ticket printed, but that is me (and it would be expecting to much from a Merseyrail RPI to be so decent).

The point I am making is, despite the customer service failures, you did not act within the rules I am afraid. You were not holding a valid ticket before travel when boarding at a manned station. I hope you can see the cost of this is just going to keep going up.
1. First you were advised to get a single to Lime Street, lets say this was about £5 - you declined.
2. Then you were offered the chance to pay £20 afterwards and given time to pay. But you choose not to pay this. You would also have had the chance to appeal this too.
3. Now you are being asked for £75. See the pattern here. Pay up and draw a line under it!

If you want to complain to customer services afterwards (and write back afterwards saying you are not happy and for a Manager to look at it, then appeal to Transport Focus asking them to take it up with Merseyrail) then please do. I am not sure you will get the outcome you want. I could not see them refunding an out of court settlement but I guess it will cost them money to have to deal with your complaint and the further you push it the more money it will cost them to investigate and respond to - although you will not get your £75 back.

 

[Realfish]

1. First you were advised to get a single to Lime Street, lets say this was about £5 - you declined.

As there was no TVM, the OP would have needed to purchase that ticket at an open ticket office prior to departure. Do MR stations not have the facility to print off pre ordered tickets at their ticket windows?

 

[gray1404]

No they don't.

 

[najaB]

Incidentally the Merseyrail bylaws which appear to be the same as the national ones in this respect, shouldn’t apply in this instance as, although I didn’t hold a ticket at the time of travel this was because ‘there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey’. Please correct me if I’m wrong in this respect..

Without knowing the station I can't answer for sure, but my understanding is that most (all?) Merseyrail stations have facilities for the issue of tickets.

 

[Dai Corner]

Without knowing the station I can't answer for sure, but my understanding is that most (all?) Merseyrail stations have facilities for the issue of tickets.

Does anyone know whether these machines are capable of printing tickets purchased online or whether Merseyrail have decided not to do so?

 

[najaB]

Does anyone know whether these machines are capable of printing tickets purchased online or whether Merseyrail have decided not to do so?

As established upthread, no Merseyrail ticket machine can do ToD. However, it is possible to *purchase* tickets to most rail destinations from them and from Merseyrail ticket offices.

 

[Sprinter153]

I've had a similar issue a few times with passengers boarding at Pershore, which has no TVM at all, and invariably they wave turquoise Trainline app booking confirmations at me. Invariably on closer inspection they say "There is no ticket vending machine at Pershore. You must travel to another station to pick up your tickets before travel."

Quite often, as discussed in this and another thread recently, the default response from the Trainline generation seems to be to flounce around / undermine staff / refuse to accept that they might possibly be in the wrong (and I would still feature in this age group!)

Personally I think every station should be equipped with ToD (and, for what it's worth, the ToD function should be enabled on our mobile TIS) but it wouldn't fix the problem, which is that people don't read anything, and that everything is someone else's fault.

The 'customer experience' department at my TOC has now decided that we should fill in a manual authority to travel form for such cases, which just muddies the water further.

 

[najaB]

The 'customer experience' department at my TOC has now decided that we should fill in a manual authority to travel form for such cases, which just muddies the water further.

Especially when they turn up five minutes before the train is due and it takes six minutes to fill in the authority forms...

 

[Dai Corner]

As established upthread, no Merseyrail ticket machine can do ToD. However, it is possible to *purchase* tickets to most rail destinations from them and from Merseyrail ticket offices.

We know they *don't*, but I was wondering if they *could* . Have MR decided not to implement ToD or can't the machines do it or some technical reason?