Transfer of LNER HST 125s to East Midlands Railway (EMR)

[Domh245]

I'll admit I didn't wade through 12 pages before posting. In what way are the LNER sets more compliant than the EMR sets? I couldn't see much difference other than different seats and colours.

From memory it's mainly the grab handles, as well as the accessible coach in the ex-LNER sets (formerly coach F) with a UAT, which is missing from the ex-EMT sets.

How is it possible that the mechanical state of the LNER was not known? Someone must have known. Was this not considered before the plan to move hem to EMR was formed?

From what I gather, the decision to go with the ex-LNER sets was made quite late in the day, at which point LNER were running them into the ground/towards mileage exams, whilst EMT/R were busily updating their Mk3s with new window glass, etc

 

[WesternLancer]

I'll admit I didn't wade through 12 pages before posting. In what way are the LNER sets more compliant than the EMR sets? I couldn't see much difference other than different seats and colours.

How is it possible that the mechanical state of the LNER was not known? Someone must have known. Was this not considered before the plan to move hem to EMR was formed?

a Basic LNER DDA compliance difference is that they have scrolling info screens with station stops etc (for ppl with hearing impairment) - EMR sets don't have that*.

Not DDA related but the LNER sets have power sockets in std class I think (dating from Virgin Trains interior fit out) which the EMR sets do not - which takes many a passenger by surprise these days.

One solution to the issue might have been to use the 'Lets Go Round again' LNER set. Surely that was reasonably decent before it had a very high quality exterior paint job?

*just noted post #391 with other DDA points

 

[43096]

How is it possible that the mechanical state of the LNER was not known? Someone must have known. Was this not considered before the plan to move hem to EMR was formed?

Because some things are not visible from just a visual inspection - they only become apparent when a set is split and they are on the jacks in the depot.

As for was it considered: remember this was a last-minute DfT decision. That explains it all.

 

[cactustwirly]

a Basic LNER DDA compliance difference is that they have scrolling info screens with station stops etc (for ppl with hearing impairment) - EMR sets don't have that*.

Not DDA related but the LNER sets have power sockets in std class I think (dating from Virgin Trains interior fit out) which the EMR sets do not - which takes many a passenger by surprise these days.

One solution to the issue might have been to use the 'Lets Go Round again' LNER set. Surely that was reasonably decent before it had a very high quality exterior paint job?

*just noted post #391 with other DDA points

LNER railtour set doesn't have contrasting doors, so cannot be used in passenger service.

 

[43096]

a Basic LNER DDA compliance difference is that they have scrolling info screens with station stops etc (for ppl with hearing impairment) - EMR sets don't have that*.

One solution to the issue might have been to use the 'Lets Go Round again' LNER set. Surely that was reasonably decent before it had a very high quality exterior paint job?

The screens weren't fitted much before the end of their LNER lives and were done in anticipation of their transfer (as far as I know the sets not transferred never got them) - could just as easily have fitted the existing EMR sets.

As for the blue/grey set - paint can hide a multitude of sins, and in any case many of the issues are below floor.

 

[43 302]

LNER railtour set doesn't have contrasting doors, so cannot be used in passenger service.

Indeed. I also highly doubt it was in better condition than those sets chosen. In fact, I suspect the opposite.

 

[WesternLancer]

LNER railtour set doesn't have contrasting doors, so cannot be used in passenger service.

Indeed - but repainting the doors to get it into service would not, I would have thought, be too complex a maintenance task...

 

[WesternLancer]

The screens weren't fitted much before the end of their LNER lives and were done in anticipation of their transfer (as far as I know the sets not transferred never got them) - could just as easily have fitted the existing EMR sets.

As for the blue/grey set - paint can hide a multitude of sins, and in any case many of the issues are below floor.

Indeed - a more likely explanation of course.

 

[XAM2175]

From earlier in this thread:

The [EMT] short sets have 32 points of non-compliance that they've been granted derogation for, the other current sets have 36. By comparison, the ex-LNER sets have 23/24 depending on the ROSCO! The details are available here.

 

[DB]

I'll admit I didn't wade through 12 pages before posting. In what way are the LNER sets more compliant than the EMR sets? I couldn't see much difference other than different seats and colours.

How is it possible that the mechanical state of the LNER was not known? Someone must have known. Was this not considered before the plan to move hem to EMR was formed?

Seats - no fixed armrests (although they could have done like Chiltern and just replaced the four pairs at the carriage ends, as that provides the required proportion of accessible seats). Think the accessible bogs might be closer to current standards than the existing EMR ones? Might be some other fairly minor issues, but the LNER sets certainly aren't compliant - slam doors, track-dump toilets (although this one is an NR requirement and not actually a PRM one).

Basically it's nothing which would have justified this amount of hassle given that it's short term anyway, and the EMR sets could have been made a bit more compliant, but it was a DfT decision, and they are not noted for sensible decisions.

Anyone know whether the plan is still to introduce all the intended LNER sets, or are they going to keep a mixture (the DfT would obviously have to agree to this). They clearly won't meet the end of July deadline for replacing all the EMR sets.

 

[Bikeman78]

From memory it's mainly the grab handles, as well as the accessible coach in the ex-LNER sets (formerly coach F) with a UAT, which is missing from the ex-EMT sets.



From what I gather, the decision to go with the ex-LNER sets was made quite late in the day, at which point LNER were running them into the ground/towards mileage exams, whilst EMT/R were busily updating their Mk3s with new window glass, etc

Well I've now read through the whole thread. What a sorry state of affairs. When the first LNER set was examined and found to be in a poor condition, perhaps the project should have been abandoned. At this rate it will be the end of the year before all the sets are ready. How much is all this costing I wonder?

 

[WesternLancer]

Well I've now read through the whole thread. What a sorry state of affairs. When the first LNER set was examined and found to be in a poor condition, perhaps the project should have been abandoned. At this rate it will be the end of the year before all the sets are ready. How much is all this costing I wonder?

Yes, it's fairly daft - though you can see why 'on paper' it seemed like a good idea.

Of course it is all about the politics - Ministers had said trains would be DDA compliant and that slipped, and then were embarrassed as had to issue derogations, and now it's slipped again. You can find plenty of money to help save ministerial embarrassment / U turn it would seem, and has probably always been thus.

Of course they had loads of time to prepare for this and were being constantly warned in Parliament that the HST fleet needed action. As soon as Grayling cancelled the MML electrification he should have immediately announced the funds to clearly make the EMT HST fleet sorted out along the lines of XC's sets I guess. Had that been done most passengers would have been happy with a modernized fleet, that met DDA and could run on for a while whilst other plans were made (which would almost certainly have ended up being some sort of IET bi-mode procurement as indeed has happened, so given how predictable that was they could have got on with it - but had to pretend it would be part of the re-franchising process - a process that has all but ended thanks to Covid and was probably on the skids anyway thanks to the Williams Review - will that ever get published?).

A sorry state of affairs really.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I am surprised that a second extension of the derogation has not created any reaction but maybe the usual interest groups aren't aware - I don't think it's widely known outside this forum.

 

[43 302]

Anyone who hasn't seen it might find this diagram from the government website interesting. This shows the original plan for the HST replacement.

East Midlands Trains: accessibility compliance dispensation

Dispensation letters for vehicles in fleets operated by East Midlands Trains, which will retain their existing accessibility levels until 12 December 2021.

www.gov.uk

 

[Mikey C]

I am surprised that a second extension of the derogation has not created any reaction but maybe the usual interest groups aren't aware - I don't think it's widely known outside this forum.

Hardly anyone is using the railway at the moment, and many of the people who benefit most from DDA will be the last to resume using it...

 

[Skymonster]

Anyone who hasn't seen it might find this diagram from the government website interesting. This shows the original plan for the HST replacement.
View attachment 79940

East Midlands Trains: accessibility compliance dispensation

Dispensation letters for vehicles in fleets operated by East Midlands Trains, which will retain their existing accessibility levels until 12 December 2021.

www.gov.uk

So in theory EMR Intercity was meant to be all ex-LNER HSTs, plus 222s and 180s by now.

Aside from the delays in the ex-LNER sets entering service, it is also telling (though slightly off-topic) is that all four 180s were meant to be in service by now according to that chart, and while two have been at Etches Park since before the lockdown (and the other two are at Crofton?) they don't yet seem to have turned a wheel in testing or staff training.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Hardly anyone is using the railway at the moment, and many of the people who benefit most from DDA will be the last to resume using it...

Quite. But, in the recent past, there does seem to have been an insistence on absolutely universal availability regardless.

 

[Ladder23]

423, 465, 467, 468, 480, 484 are the buffered HSTs

thanks mate

 

[Robertj21a]

Quite. But, in the recent past, there does seem to have been an insistence on absolutely universal availability regardless.

Probably because it's so long overdue anyway.

 

[joenffc]

all four 180s were meant to be in service by now according to that chart, and while two have been at Etches Park since before the lockdown (and the other two are at Crofton?) they don't yet seem to have turned a wheel in testing or staff training.

the 2 they've got aren't working

 

[Skymonster]

the 2 they've got aren't working

Well that's nothing new for a 180, is it. I suppose EMR should be grateful they haven't caught fire yet.

The point I was trying to make was that the plan / chart shown above suggested they were meant to be working by now. Two are on EMR property and yet little appears to be happening and they are merely festering, which will no doubt reduce initial reliability when they do start moving.

 

[Ladder23]

Well that's nothing new for a 180, is it. I suppose EMR should be grateful they haven't caught fire yet.

The point I was trying to make was that the plan / chart shown above suggested they were meant to be working by now. Two are on EMR property and yet little appears to be happening and they are merely festering, which will no doubt reduce initial reliability when they do start moving.

would of thought even running empty would be ideal for them wouldn't you think, one trip a day maybe

 

[Hairy Bear]

wold of thought even running empty would be ideal for them wouldn't you think, one trip a day maybe

No one's been trained on high speed handling with them yet.
Try next year...........maybe.

 

[Ladder23]

No one's been trained on high speed handling with them yet.
Try next year...........maybe.

course I didn't think of that! I jumped the gun as I remember them using the MML when the ECML was down for maintenance.

I hope sooner than later!

 

[WesternLancer]

would of thought even running empty would be ideal for them wouldn't you think, one trip a day maybe

Don't forget many fire brigades are still stretched for resources...

 

[Swimbar]

A movement listed for tomorrow on RTT of stock from Gascoigne Wood to Neville Hill. 0Z42

Realtime Trains | Departures from Gascoigne Wood Jn. all day on 30/06/2020

Train information at Gascoigne Wood Jn. all day on 30/06/2020. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[43096]

A movement listed for tomorrow on RTT of stock from Gascoigne Wood to Neville Hill. 0Z42

Realtime Trains | Departures from Gascoigne Wood Jn. all day on 30/06/2020

Train information at Gascoigne Wood Jn. all day on 30/06/2020. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

As it is shows as a Class 0 (ie light engine) it is presumably a power car move only.

 

[Swimbar]

As it is shows as a Class 0 (ie light engine) it is presumably a power car move only.

There is also a movement from Leicester LIP to Gascoigne Wood earlier in the day! May well be connected.

 

[GNS]

Yep 064 is the next one to go, has likely worked it's last passenger service under EMR already. By my account, the only VP185s left in service are 43043, 045, 048, 049, 050, 058, 059, 060, 064, 073, 076, 081, 089.

D.A.T.S: 052, 054, 066
LSL: 046, 055, 083
Long Marston: 061, 075
NL Non-runners: 044, 047, 082

I'm sure I saw 43064 working today 29 June and paired with 43081. I live overlooking Kettering station and the enforced working from home means I see most of the trains that pass by.

 

[43 302]

I'm sure I saw 43064 working today 29 June and paired with 43081. I live overlooking Kettering station and the enforced working from home means I see most of the trains that pass by.

You did indeed, it worked today. Almost definitely 064s last day out, but railways ennit so who knows what will happen