Transfer of LNER HST 125s to East Midlands Railway (EMR)

[Swimbar]

43314 and 43319 have been moved from Gascoigne Wood to Neville Hill this lunchtime.
Pace of change may be picking up!

 

[nat67]

43314 and 43319 have been moved from Gascoigne Wood to Neville Hill this lunchtime.
Pace of change may be picking up!

Not necessarily as it's the power cars that are entering service at the moment. So far we only have NL51 ex EC51 which has entered service and hardly ever appears.

 

[Swimbar]

Makes sense to get as much mileage as possible out of the sets that are going!

 

[Dave91131]

Makes sense to get as much mileage as possible out of the sets that are going!

I think it's more a case of the fact that they don't have a choice about using the existing sets (other than numerous daily cancellations) due to the tectonic like pace of readying the ex LNER sets for service.

 

[Swimbar]

(other than numerous daily cancellations)

Didn't realise there had been many of these!

 

[WesternLancer]

I think it's more a case of the fact that they don't have a choice about using the existing sets (other than numerous daily cancellations) due to the tectonic like pace of readying the ex LNER sets for service.

since it's looking like these LNER sets are really taking time to prep it seems highly likely that they will get not much use with EMR after readiness - even despite the derogation extension. So I'd have thought they might be good sets for use with a charter operator eventually - or good sets to put through a fuller modification and fit with sliding doors etc.

 

[DB]

Didn't realise there had been many of these!

That's because they are carrying on using the existing sets, otherwise there would be!

My understanding is that the LNER power cars are less of an issue, and the problem is the coaching sets which need a lot more work than was anticipated in order to get them into a usable condition.

since it's looking like these LNER sets are really taking time to prep it seems highly likely that they will get not much use with EMR after readiness - even despite the derogation extension. So I'd have thought they might be good sets for use with a charter operator eventually - or good sets to put through a fuller modification and fit with sliding doors etc.

The only charter operator who so far has shown any interest in HSTs is LSL, who have gone for ex-GWR trailers and ex-EMR VP185 power cars.

As regards sliding doors - the question is who would actually want them? There are currently no operators looking for more stock, and given that the drop in passenger numbers is likely to have a fairly long-term impact it's difficult to see that changing.

 

[WesternLancer]

That's because they are carrying on using the existing sets, otherwise there would be!

My understanding is that the LNER power cars are less of an issue, and the problem is the coaching sets which need a lot more work than was anticipated in order to get them into a usable condition.



The only charter operator who so far has shown any interest in HSTs is LSL, who have gone for ex-GWR trailers and ex-EMR VP185 power cars.

As regards sliding doors - the question is who would actually want them? There are currently no operators looking for more stock, and given that the drop in passenger numbers is likely to have a fairly long-term impact it's difficult to see that changing.

Those are of course very good points.

 

[43096]

I think it's more a case of the fact that they don't have a choice about using the existing sets (other than numerous daily cancellations) due to the tectonic like pace of readying the ex LNER sets for service.

It’s a reflection on the volume of work needed on them, not the pace of work or capability.

 

[Dave91131]

It’s a reflection on the volume of work needed on them, not the pace of work nor capability.

100%. In no way was I criticising working practices or the staff undertaking the work.

I think I remember reading in the latest 125 Group magazine that one of the ex LNER catering vehicles is too far gone so has been / will be substituted by an existing vehicle.

 

[43096]

100%. In no way was I criticising working practices or the staff undertaking the work.

I think I remember reading in the latest 125 Group magazine that one of the ex LNER catering vehicles is too far gone so has been / will be substituted by an existing vehicle.

The buffet from set #2 may get done but would appear with set #3.

 

[superjohn]

It’s a reflection on the volume of work needed on them, not the pace of work or capability.

Who will be paying for this extra work? It is often claimed on here that rolling stock going off lease must be returned in the same state as it was received. Obviously this isn’t the case here. Perhaps it was originally anticipated that the East Coast sets would go straight for scrap and it was agreed they would be run down. Would that leave EMR lumbered with the cost of their repair as they need them to meet the derogation? I suppose the leasing company might be paying but with the amount of work required they could quite justifiably deem it not worth it for the limited lease revenue they will get for the relatively short use they will get. Maybe the DFT are paying?

 

[Skymonster]

Seems like EMR must have got the passenger vehicles from Arthur Daley's Used Trains company...

Used HST coaches available: six careful owners, never raced or rallied, taxed and tested (honest), "warranty", inspection not necessary

 

[FOH]

You'd think at this point the money and effort would've been better spent pinching the PRM mods from the LNER examples and retrofitting them on the EMR sets.

 

[DB]

You'd think at this point the money and effort would've been better spent pinching the PRM mods from the LNER examples and retrofitting them on the EMR sets.

Yes, I did wonder about that. An obvious one is seats (those in the EMR sets not compliant). What Chiltern have done is to replace the end eight in each carriage (i.e. backing onto the bulkheads) with compliant seats - which are actually an updated version of those in the LNER sets. Presumably it would be fairly straightforward to do the same here, using seats from the LNER sets?

Then there is the swing-door disabled bog. Not practical to swap this but they could possibly just refurbish one coach from each set which has this type of bog, and insert them into the EMT sets? Wiring changes would be needed, but it might still be possible?

Is there anything else which could practically be done?

 

[DB]

It is often claimed on here that rolling stock going off lease must be returned in the same state as it was received.

I don't know whether it is the case here, but it's possible that the problems would not be visible until the coach was lifted off its bogies?

And they were intended to be withdrawn after LNER - it was the DfT who decided to send them to EMR because they are slightly closer to compliant than their existing sets.

 

[heedfan]

I don't know whether it is the case here, but it's possible that the problems would not be visible until the coach was lifted off its bogies?

And they were intended to be withdrawn after LNER - it was the DfT who decided to send them to EMR because they are slightly closer to compliant than their existing sets.

Certainly is the case that a lot of the issues are underneath, but not necessarily needing to be lifted off the bogies in all cases. A thorough examination from anyone worth their salt would have spotted these issues.

The alternative to giving the stock back to the leaser in good condition is simply for the TOC to pay a fine imposed by the leaser in order for the leaser to undertake the work themselves to bring the stock back to suitable condition.

 

[43096]

Who will be paying for this extra work? It is often claimed on here that rolling stock going off lease must be returned in the same state as it was received. Obviously this isn’t the case here. Perhaps it was originally anticipated that the East Coast sets would go straight for scrap and it was agreed they would be run down. Would that leave EMR lumbered with the cost of their repair as they need them to meet the derogation? I suppose the leasing company might be paying but with the amount of work required they could quite justifiably deem it not worth it for the limited lease revenue they will get for the relatively short use they will get. Maybe the DFT are paying?

Almost certainly the DfT paying - this whole "plan" was DfT's doing. Even if they were to go back to Angel for the costs, Angel would no doubt point them to LNER - which is of course a DfT run franchise.

It would have been far simpler, quicker and cheaper to fit the PIS into the existing sets and take an ex-GWR TSD and put it into the set in place of a TS to achieve better PRM compliance.

 

[43055]

Second red set NL56 is currently out on a test run as 5Z42/5Z43 (links below) between Leeds and Derby and back. Apparently if all is well then it could enter service in the next week. Powercars on the set reported as 43318, 43320.

5Z42: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/48825/2020-08-22/detailed
5Z43: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/48839/2020-08-22/detailed

Also reported on Facebook that only 6 red sets will enter service than the original planned 9 sets.

 

[43 302]

Second red set NL56 is currently out on a training run as 5Z42/5Z43 (links below) between Leeds and Derby and back. Apparently if all is well then it could enter service in the next week. Powercars on the set reported as 43318, 43320.

5Z42: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/48825/2020-08-22/detailed
5Z43: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/48839/2020-08-22/detailed

Also reported on Facebook that only 6 red sets will enter service than the original planned 9 sets.

6 is likely the most that will enter service, could well be less if enough aren't ready by the time the dispensation runs out/they're replaced.

 

[Killingworth]

Saw 5Z42 going south through Dore. It's appearance looked a long way from pristine!

 

[WesternLancer]

6 is likely the most that will enter service, could well be less if enough aren't ready by the time the dispensation runs out/they're replaced.

so the aim must be to get 6 sets ready by end of december 2020. 4 more to go presumably.

wasn't pre covid service provided by 9 HSTs + 2 Angel short HSTs?

Some 180s perhaps intended to start (I'd thought they were to cover for the Angel short HSTs though)

So with 6 ex LNER sets instead of 9 what services are going to something else?

With Hitachi units designed to start in 2022 (and they may be delayed) are we likely to see some HSTs on midland main line until may 2022?

 

[DB]

so the aim must be to get 6 sets ready by end of december 2020. 4 more to go presumably.

wasn't pre covid service provided by 9 HSTs + 2 Angel short HSTs?

Some 180s perhaps intended to start (I'd thought they were to cover for the Angel short HSTs though)

So with 6 ex LNER sets instead of 9 what services are going to something else?

With Hitachi units designed to start in 2022 (and they may be delayed) are we likely to see some HSTs on midland main line until may 2022?

Isn't it the 360s which determine the end date for the HSTs? Once those are in service it will allow the 222s to be cascaded onto the current HST diagrams, with the IEPs to replace the 222s after that.

 

[WesternLancer]

Isn't it the 360s which determine the end date for the HSTs? Once those are in service it will allow the 222s to be cascaded onto the current HST diagrams, with the IEPs to replace the 222s after that.

ah I see - that rings a bell.

 

[Swimbar]

ah I see - that rings a bell.

I suspect the 'Master Plan' changes weekly!
One if the priorities seems to have been to get some of the VP powercars to their new owners.

 

[43055]

so the aim must be to get 6 sets ready by end of december 2020. 4 more to go presumably.

wasn't pre covid service provided by 9 HSTs + 2 Angel short HSTs?

Some 180s perhaps intended to start (I'd thought they were to cover for the Angel short HSTs though)

So with 6 ex LNER sets instead of 9 what services are going to something else?

With Hitachi units designed to start in 2022 (and they may be delayed) are we likely to see some HSTs on midland main line until may 2022?

I think the normal weekday diagrams is 8 2+8 and 2 2+6 diagrams but Im not sure about the former.

The 180's are planned to be in service for December (training is apparently starting soon) and with 4 of them to replace 3 sets it is possible that they will replace some of the 8 car sets as well. As one of the 6 car diagrams is sometimes replaced by a 8 car set then it is possible that you only need 1 180 to replace the angels leaving 2 possibly 3 180's to replace some of the 8 car diagrams which alongside the 6 HST's that will be left should be enough to withdraw the blue HST's.

Come May (was December) when the 360's should come the timetable will be recast in such a way that there will be no requirement for the HST's any more and then the 180's and 222's will continue until the 810's arrive.

 

[43 302]

so the aim must be to get 6 sets ready by end of december 2020. 4 more to go presumably.

wasn't pre covid service provided by 9 HSTs + 2 Angel short HSTs?

Some 180s perhaps intended to start (I'd thought they were to cover for the Angel short HSTs though)

So with 6 ex LNER sets instead of 9 what services are going to something else?

With Hitachi units designed to start in 2022 (and they may be delayed) are we likely to see some HSTs on midland main line until may 2022?

It is likely that the last HST sets in service will be a mix of ex LNER ones and the current EMR ones. So the same amount of HSTs still.

I think the normal weekday diagrams is 8 2+8 and 2 2+6 diagrams but Im not sure about the former.

The 180's are planned to be in service for December (training is apparently starting soon) and with 4 of them to replace 3 sets it is possible that they will replace some of the 8 car sets as well. As one of the 6 car diagrams is sometimes replaced by a 8 car set then it is possible that you only need 1 180 to replace the angels leaving 2 possibly 3 180's to replace some of the 8 car diagrams which alongside the 6 HST's that will be left should be enough to withdraw the blue HST's.

Come May (was December) when the 360's should come the timetable will be recast in such a way that there will be no requirement for the HST's any more and then the 180's and 222's will continue until the 810's arrive.

My understanding was that it was only six ex LNER sets would enter traffic, but there would still be nine sets (or however many there is under normal TT). I highly doubt we will have six red sets out by December.

 

[DB]

I think the normal weekday diagrams is 8 2+8 and 2 2+6 diagrams but Im not sure about the former.

The 180's are planned to be in service for December (training is apparently starting soon) and with 4 of them to replace 3 sets it is possible that they will replace some of the 8 car sets as well. As one of the 6 car diagrams is sometimes replaced by a 8 car set then it is possible that you only need 1 180 to replace the angels leaving 2 possibly 3 180's to replace some of the 8 car diagrams which alongside the 6 HST's that will be left should be enough to withdraw the blue HST's.

Come May (was December) when the 360's should come the timetable will be recast in such a way that there will be no requirement for the HST's any more and then the 180's and 222's will continue until the 810's arrive.

Given the notorious reliability record of the 180s any more than two out of four required in use might be rather optimistic!

 

[43096]

It is likely that the last HST sets in service will be a mix of ex LNER ones and the current EMR ones. So the same amount of HSTs still.
My understanding was that it was only six ex LNER sets would enter traffic, but there would still be nine sets (or however many there is under normal TT). I highly doubt we will have six red sets out by December.

I'd say there is no chance of 6 sets by December given the amount of work on them that is required. It's taken 8 months to get two sets into a fit state.

 

[DB]

I'd say there is no chance of 6 sets by December given the amount of work on them that is required. It's taken 8 months to get two sets into a fit state.

Dispensation on the EMT sets is only until the end if the year currently though, isn't it?