Transpennine Express decide not to use MK3's on limited services

[Chester1]

They won't. The mk3 sets and the units currently being subleased to Northern are needed to allow the North TPE enhancements - the extra Manchester to Leeds service and extending all Airport-York services to Newcastle. All TPE Manchester-Sheffield services are expected to be 6 car once the new stock is in service.

Thats a shame but it makes sense with the Mark Vs not arriving until August and the 185 upgrade program running slightly behind schedule.

Will even six cars be enough for some services?

Intially yes but in the long term it depends on how much demand is being surpressed by overcrowding. I have suggested that 9 coaches may be necessary using some of the units going off lease at the end of 2019. However, it was pointed out that some of the platforms on South TP are too short and Manchester Airport platforms would be very expensive to extend. Perhaps reconfiguring the fleet into 4 and 2 coach sets with 1 first class + 3 standard and 2 standard only units, which would involve little more than seating and coach swaps. The platforms on the skip stop North TP service could fit doubled 2 coach sets but not doubled 3 coach sets and doubled 3/4 coach sets would fit South TP. The Rosco would have guaranteed a home for a larger proportion of 185s. That would mean a TPE 185 fleet of 8 x 4, 8 x 2 and 17 x 3. That would send 18 x 3 coach 185s off lease instead of 22.

If the Liverpool to Norwich service is split / merged with other services and Liverpool to Nottingham transferred to TPE then it would likely be run with 6 coach 185 sets which would be small increase (50-60 seats?) on doubled 158s.

 

[CosherB]

Thats a shame but it makes sense with the Mark Vs not arriving until August and the 185 upgrade program running slightly behind schedule.



Intially yes but in the long term it depends on how much demand is being surpressed by overcrowding. I have suggested that 9 coaches may be necessary using some of the units going off lease at the end of 2019. However, it was pointed out that some of the platforms on South TP are too short and Manchester Airport platforms would be very expensive to extend. Perhaps reconfiguring the fleet into 4 and 2 coach sets with 1 first class + 3 standard and 2 standard only units, which would involve little more than seating and coach swaps. The platforms on the skip stop North TP service could fit doubled 2 coach sets but not doubled 3 coach sets and doubled 3/4 coach sets would fit South TP. The Rosco would have guaranteed a home for a larger proportion of 185s. That would mean a TPE 185 fleet of 8 x 4, 8 x 2 and 17 x 3. That would send 18 x 3 coach 185s off lease instead of 22.

If the Liverpool to Norwich service is split / merged with other services and Liverpool to Nottingham transferred to TPE then it would likely be run with 6 coach 185 sets which would be small increase (50-60 seats?) on doubled 158s.

Splitting up 185s into 2 and 4 car sets will never happen, for reasons posted on here many times before.

 

[a_c_skinner]

depends on how much demand is being surpressed by overcrowding.

Anyone who has ridden on the central bit of TP (York, Leeds, Manchester) could be forgiven for thinking that crowding is at a point where it is the major suppressor of demand. It is of course difficult to know.

 

[68011]

MK3's are heading back to Laira on Monday
5Z08 http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97582/2017/11/27/advanced

 

[AnthonyRail]

MK3's are heading back to Laira on Monday
5Z08 http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97582/2017/11/27/advanced

Any idea on loco hauling, guessing a 68

 

[BMIFlyer]

I'm not sure why people keep mentioning the wish for the 185s to be reconfigured as 4 car and 2 car trains - it's not possible to do so it won't happen.

Also, the mark 3 top and tailed sets will be 4 carriages and 2 locomotives, not 5 carriages.

There will be 2 sets and they will run on the Liverpool to Scarborough route only.

Not sure where you are also getting the August introduction of the mark 5 sets idea either - no one knows yet as it all depends on the testing.

 

[68011]

Any idea on loco hauling, guessing a 68

Yes it should be.

 

[Chester1]

I'm not sure why people keep mentioning the wish for the 185s to be reconfigured as 4 car and 2 car trains - it's not possible to do so it won't happen.

Also, the mark 3 top and tailed sets will be 4 carriages and 2 locomotives, not 5 carriages.

There will be 2 sets and they will run on the Liverpool to Scarborough route only.

Not sure where you are also getting the August introduction of the mark 5 sets idea either - no one knows yet as it all depends on the testing.

I didn't know 2 car 185s are not possible. Rail magazine and I think Modern Railways too have said August for Mark Vs. It surprised me that 2 Mark III sets and return of 4 185s from Northern would be enough extra capacity for the May timetable changes during the refurbishment program.

 

[absolutelymilk]

It surprised me that 2 Mark III sets and return of 4 185s from Northern would be enough extra capacity for the May timetable changes during the refurbishment program.

When exactly are the 185s returning to TPE?

 

[68011]

Any idea on loco hauling, guessing a 68

68027

 

[CosherB]

I didn't know 2 car 185s are not possible. Rail magazine and I think Modern Railways too have said August for Mark Vs. It surprised me that 2 Mark III sets and return of 4 185s from Northern would be enough extra capacity for the May timetable changes during the refurbishment program.

Don't believe everything you read in the media.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

156470/73/97 and 98. Somebody did put pics up at the time but it was a few years ago. Think they were on an old forum that used to exist years ago. The stickers were attached on the toilet wall.

There were on the old Northern Railways forum and I know which stickers you mean as some of the 156's were in the old Northern livery.

 

[Starmill]

It is rumored that this stock will work:

1Z01 2201 Manchester Airport to Manchester Pic
and
1Z02 2227 Manchester Pic to Manchester Airport

and associated empty stock moves this Saturday night, 30th December 2017.

 

[59CosG95]

Don't believe everything you read in the media.

Agreed on that sentiment, but Modern Railways is a more reliable source than RAIL (or at least that's what I've found).

It is rumored that this stock will work:

1Z01 2201 Manchester Airport to Manchester Pic
and
1Z02 2227 Manchester Pic to Manchester Airport

and associated empty stock moves this Saturday night, 30th December 2017.

Interesting...I assume some sort of hype'll be about!

 

[Starmill]

Agreed on that sentiment, but Modern Railways is a more reliable source than RAIL

Agreed!

 

[43096]

It is rumored that this stock will work:

1Z01 2201 Manchester Airport to Manchester Pic
and
1Z02 2227 Manchester Pic to Manchester Airport

and associated empty stock moves this Saturday night, 30th December 2017.

Won't be their own stock if it does run as it is all at Laira, with a release date in 2018.

As the ECS comes from/goes back to Crewe CS, maybe the ATW set being hired in?

 

[yorksrob]

Not exactly an inspiring diagram.

But hey ho, from little acorns, one can hope some mighty oak trees will grow ?

 

[Devonman2014]

Won't be their own stock if it does run as it is all at Laira, with a release date in 2018.

As the ECS comes from/goes back to Crewe CS, maybe the ATW set being hired in?

37059 and 57303 are in Plymouth as I type this ready to return some (or all) the pretendalino stock

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97199/2017/12/29/advanced

So by the 30th the set(s) should be at Crewe and ready to work the services stated above.

 

[BMIFlyer]

It is rumored that this stock will work:

1Z01 2201 Manchester Airport to Manchester Pic
and
1Z02 2227 Manchester Pic to Manchester Airport

and associated empty stock moves this Saturday night, 30th December 2017.

Timings have changed.
Provisionally empties from Crewe to Man Picc
Then
2145 Man Picc to Man Air
2215 Man Air to Man Picc

Won't be their own stock if it does run as it is all at Laira, with a release date in 2018.

As the ECS comes from/goes back to Crewe CS, maybe the ATW set being hired in?

Incorrect, the test train uses part of the pretendolino.

It's a franchise requirement to run a Mk3 operated train in 2017, so....

 

[Bobb]

Timings have changed.
Incorrect, the test train uses part of the pretendolino.

It's a franchise requirement to run a Mk3 operated train in 2017, so....

The train linked below are some of the pretendolino Mk3s. Might be linked, I don't know.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97199/2017/12/29/advanced

 

[BMIFlyer]

Here's the Man Picc to Airport train tomorrow evening. 1Z68

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O56305/2017/12/30/advanced

 

[BMIFlyer]

1Z69 for the return journey.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O56306/2017/12/30/advanced

 

[Elecman]

Theres some expretendolino leaving the West Country now.

 

[AndrewE]

What a pantomime! This sort of caper shows how regulators can never keep up with the machinations of the infrastructure companies that they are supposed to hold to account. ECS hauled Plymouth to the north west (and will presumably return soon afterwards) just to provide one or two token trains, after which the lack of capacity goes on as before. The only good thing I suppose is that it will cost them something (and provide some driver overtime on the ECS) though presumably less than the fine would have been for not delivering in a meaningful way.

 

[BMIFlyer]

What a pantomime! This sort of caper shows how regulators can never keep up with the machinations of the infrastructure companies that they are supposed to hold to account. ECS hauled Plymouth to the north west (and will presumably return soon afterwards) just to provide one or two token trains, after which the lack of capacity goes on as before. The only good thing I suppose is that it will cost them something (and provide some driver overtime on the ECS) though presumably less than the fine would have been for not delivering in a meaningful way.

The ECS is returning to Crewe from Plymouth purely because it has been overhauled at Laira. The next stage is ETH wiring mods at Crewe courtesy of Arriva Traincare.

Following this the drivers and one depot of guards require training on the stock, then hopefully a rake of Mk3s begins service in May replacing a 185 which can double up another busy train.

Hardly a pantomime. The lack of capacity is purely down to "build it and they will come" (new trains, oh nice lets drop the car), etc.

New trains will be in service from December 2018 when a massive timetable change happens - that is when you will see major changes to stock and carriage numbers. Can't and won't happen any quicker than that.

 

[AndrewE]

Maybe I am mixing up 2 different things then. I thought I read a post saying that this was down to a legal obligation to run additional Mk3 stock to increase capacity this year. However I can't see it now, so maybe it has been deleted. The point is that

Anyone who has ridden on the central bit of TP (York, Leeds, Manchester) could be forgiven for thinking that crowding is at a point where it is the major suppressor of demand. It is of course difficult to know.

so refurbishment, rewiring of coaches etc is guilding the lilly. If they will run then put them on asap.

 

[BMIFlyer]

I thought I read a post saying that this was down to a legal obligation to run additional Mk3 stock to increase capacity this year. However I can't see it now, so maybe it has been deleted. The point is that

so refurbishment, rewiring of coaches etc is guilding the lilly. If they will run then put them on asap.

Let me advise you of this....

If the coaches are not altered so that the class 68s can power the ETH, then the Mk3 stock will have no PA system, lights or heating as the batteries will die after a couple of hours of no charging (the ETH charges the battery system).

So the train will then be out of service.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's a franchise requirement to run a Mk3 operated train in 2017, so....

The original DfT requirement in the franchise agreement for the 2xMk3 sets was "available for unrestricted passenger carrying service" by 30 September 2017.
This was after refurbishment.
One short passenger move of one set at dead of night doesn't seem to match the requirement.

 

[AndrewE]

Let me advise you of this....

If the coaches are not altered so that the class 68s can power the ETH, then the Mk3 stock will have no PA system, lights or heating as the batteries will die after a couple of hours of no charging (the ETH charges the battery system).

So the train will then be out of service.

So for the short term run the trains with locos that are compatible then. As I said, don't gild the lily, just increase capacity NOW. If the franchises have mismanaged their rolling stock procurement then that is their problem. I would say hire in locos and drivers if needed (or train up their own) and take the extra cost on the chin, but then I live in a delusional world where I expect organisations that sign contracts to honour them, and if they cock things up it's their loss rather than them taking the full price but not delivering.

 

[Crossforth]

So for the short term run the trains with locos that are compatible then. As I said, don't gild the lily, just increase capacity NOW. If the franchises have mismanaged their rolling stock procurement then that is their problem. I would say hire in locos and drivers if needed (or train up their own) and take the extra cost on the chin, but then I live in a delusional world where I expect organisations that sign contracts to honour them, and if they cock things up it's their loss rather than them taking the full price but not delivering.

I think there is a lot more too it than that.

All I will say is that the drivers union were involved over the training plan for the class 68s so I don’t think everything was running as smoothly as TPE hoped