Transport Investigations prosecuting me

Discussion in 'Disputes & Prosecutions' started by hazard321, 9 Sep 2019.

  1. WesternLancer

    WesternLancer Member

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    Yes, that's the problem - I don't use Trainline so no idea how it works in such situations, but obv they have significant market share and lots of people do use them (before coming to this site for advice).
     
  2. tiptoptaff

    tiptoptaff Established Member

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    I can't answer for what the OP had on their screen at the time, but the Trainline's guidance for getting a refund on the app suggests you actively have to seek it out, by going through a series of menus
     
  3. _toommm_

    _toommm_ Established Member

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    For lower value tickets, TTL don't charge the full £10 admin fee, but a proportion of the ticket cost (I'm unsure as to the algorithm to work out the admin fee vs. cost). Similarly, the same process happens for Advance mobile tickets booked through TTL too.
     
  4. WesternLancer

    WesternLancer Member

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    Thanks!
     
  5. CentralTrainer

    CentralTrainer Member

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    Was speaking to a friend at work today who uses the TL app quite a bit to book tickets on the day.

    They said they did a test on the app as they had paid for a paper ticket a few days before taking a trip - but then thought they misplaced it.

    So they purchased in the TL app on the day and scanned the ticket to go through the barriers. During the journey they happened to find the paper ticket in an inside pocket in their jacket. So they tried to do what the OP had done here and requested a refund (which was about 5 minutes after going through the barriers but after they had shown the TL ticket to the Guard).

    They still had the details on the app which they showed me. It did state that (for an £8.80 fare) that the admin charge would be £3.50-odd. But the refund was unsuccessful.

    They also said that to do this they had to go through at least 2 clicks to request and confirm the action.

    This suggested to both of us that a barrier scanned ticket would then flag up not to allow and refuse a refund - meaning that maybe the OP didn’t actually scan any ticket at the barrier if they got a refund confirmed back to them?

    If so - that’d give the TOC more weightier evidence against...
     
  6. tiptoptaff

    tiptoptaff Established Member

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    I had considered a test purchase, so thanks to your friend for misplacing their ticket and doing this for us!
     
  7. hazard321

    hazard321 Member

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    I definitely scanned the ticket through the barrier and I think your friend is correct, as when I checked to see if the ticket had been refunded a couple of hours later it was unsuccessful.

    I still don't know what I was thinking to check if a refund would work or not
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 11 Sep 2019
  8. WesternLancer

    WesternLancer Member

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    well, it is easy to do daft things like that - esp if process does not prevent it. Key thing now is to help you make a case that limits the damage.

    I wonder if the system, including the barrier scan in, is simply not 'fail safe' eg does the tech work every time/

    Just a further thought - can you recall if for certain the barrier opened in response to your scan - eg as opposed to a co-incidental tailgate of the person ahead of you, or if staff intervened to open the barrier for any reason?
     
  9. hazard321

    hazard321 Member

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    Im certain i scanned it. There was no one in front of me
     
  10. WesternLancer

    WesternLancer Member

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    Thanks. So I guess we also have the not 'fail safe' system to consider.
    Another reason to avoid Trainline if you can I guess.
     
  11. talltim

    talltim Established Member

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    Are you talking about the ticket that caused you the trouble? If it was not refunded then surely it was still valid?
     
  12. WesternLancer

    WesternLancer Member

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    I think the OP states it was refunded, minus an Admin charge. Or enough through the process of the refund as to be no longer a valid ticket at the moment the inspector checked it, very soon after.
     
  13. maniacmartin

    maniacmartin Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    This is exactly what I thought when I read the post. I would be basing my appeal on this fact, with a screenshot/printout etc of the page that said the refund failed.
     
  14. hazard321

    hazard321 Member

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    I have not mentioned this as i dont think they care if the refund was successful or not. All they care is the fact i attempted to refund the ticket when i shouldnt have
     
  15. Haywain

    Haywain Established Member

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    I disagree. The ticket is cancelled as part of the process of applying for a refund, so is not valid for travel. The fact that the refund value is nil due to an admin fee is irrelevant in my view.
     
  16. cuccir

    cuccir Established Member

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    You seem to have contradicted yourself here. You have said:

    Which was it?

    In principle, if your ticket was not refunded then surely it was still valid. I can see how it is possible that if in the period after clicking refund the app says something like "refund pending" then arguably it would be invalid at that moment because you couldn't show it to the inspector, and the act of applying to refund could still potentially be shown in court as evidence of intent to avoid a fare.

    So I can certainly see why when writing to TIL it may be worth leaving it unmentioned, particularly as it seems to complicate matters to raise it at the last minute. It may become relevant still if this goes to court, depending on what they do try and charge you with.
     
  17. some bloke

    some bloke Member

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    I would mention it. Your first letter refers to an outstanding fare, which can be taken to mean you have in fact profited by taking money that doesn't belong to you. As the refund didn't go through, we might think there was no chargeable "admin", so that no company lost out to any significant extent.

    Even if the screen said "you are now cancelling the ticket prior to applying for a refund", the fact that there was no refund may be taken as evidence that profiting in that way isn't an easy thing to achieve, and lessen any concern that you may have done it before.

    Your situation is much more delicate than if you'd followed a common practice of boarding without a ticket. They may think "this sounds a bit odd but we'll let him settle" or "it sounds like he, at least at some point, thought he'd get away with it".

    You need to be careful what you write, as it may be brought up in court.

    If you prefer not to consult a solicitor now, then I'd advise addressing the questions above about your intent at different times, and posting a draft on here so people can comment.
     
    Last edited: 12 Sep 2019
  18. hazard321

    hazard321 Member

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    I have already sent the letter yesterday. I didnt include this but i will be sure to mention this if it does go further. I already have stated in the letter i can provide screenshots of past tickets on the app to prove i have never done this before. I will update once i get a reply.
     
  19. WesternLancer

    WesternLancer Member

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    Good luck with the next stage of this in any case.
     
  20. hazard321

    hazard321 Member

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    Bad news. It seems they just ignored what i sent in my letter similar to other peoples experiences. I have seen on other posts that its possible to still agree out of court settlement with cross country directly by calling them. Should i give this a go or just wait for the next letter and see what happens 20190914_190301.jpg
     
  21. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    The case is likely to be handed back to the TOC's prosecution team so it will be them who you hear from next. The chances are that you'll be able to arrange a settlement with them.

    Though you still have the problem of explaining this "accidental" refund.
     
  22. some bloke

    some bloke Member

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    In a straightforward case, where there's a simple misunderstanding that needs clearing up, a call might be appropriate. But there's a risk of saying the "wrong" thing, and having a written record of communications may be preferable anyway.

    Your case isn't straightforward - your position on intent at different times isn't clear yet. There's nothing to stop you writing to the company, but you might think in view of the fact that you want to work in finance, that it's worth getting in touch with a solicitor now.
     
  23. Fare-Cop

    Fare-Cop Member

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    It is almost certain that once a letter confirming this response is received, the TOC have agreed with TIL and the TOC have therefore authorised the prosecution
     
  24. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    You would think so but, based on the experience of previous posters, it doesn't seem that this is always the case.

    More than once we've seen TOCs agree to settle after TIL have refused to.

    It might but be the case universally, but I don't think that TIL actually makes the application for a summons where XC are concerned.
     

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