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Travel Beyond Validity...

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gray1404

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My advice here to the OP, in no uncertain terms, is to pay the PF as soon as possible and make an appeal. They may also make a formal complaint to the TOC for the error of their RPI.

Personally, (and this next comment is not to be taken as advise) if I had been issued with a PF and I was positive my ticket on the day was valid and I had done nothing wrong at all, I would be tempted to see if the TOC would really be so stupid as to issue legal proceedings. Knowing they would loose and make a show of themselves.
 
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DaveNewcastle

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. . . businesses roll over paying protection money. Doesn't make it right. For every 100 people that get fined, the TOC just repays 10 who appeal. Nice little money maker.
Please, please, please, paulweaver, make sure that replies to people seeking advice are both relevant to the assistance that is requested and are factually reliable.

I don't agree that the best course of action is for the OP the pay.
. . . .
If I were to get such a letter, I would write back telling them what they could do with their penalty fare and see you in court.
duncanp, you have distanced yourself from trainagogo, but I think that your position could be construed as advice. trainagogo, please do not take this advice - for whatever personal experience informs duncanp's proposal, it does not make that proposal relevant or helpful to you. And what concerns me the most, is that it offers you absolutely no indication of the risks attached to the various outcomes and the probabilities of each. My assessment is that you would experience a low probability of a low-cost outcome if you adopted that 'advice'. Depending on your investment in professional assistance and representation, then you would increase your probability of exposure to small costs, but also increase greatly the cost of failure - a failure which would still be very likely.
 
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jkdd77

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I disagree with DaveNewcastle that the OP has a low probability of a low-cost outcome if he/ she doesn't pay the invalid PF, and strongly disagree with his position that the OP would be likely to fail in court. On the contrary, the risk of being prosecuted is very low, and the risk of being convicted is exceptionally low, given that the OP clearly holds a valid ticket, and would not require a specialist solicitor to explain this to the satisfaction of any magistrate.

Apart from anything else, the OP has 21 days to decide whether to pay the invalid PF at the '£20' rate. I also note that any so-called "administration fees" added for late or non-payment would be just as invalid and unenforceable as the original PF.

At the very least, he/ she should wait to see whether his/ her appeal is accepted within that timescale, or a couple of days beforehand, before deciding whether or not to pay. Personally, if I had been issued an invalid PF despite holding a valid ticket, I would be disinclined to pay it, but, of course, it is for the OP to decide based on his/ her attitude to risk, potential hassle, and potential costs (which, if the absolute worst happens, could mean a RRA conviction and a criminal record for dishonesty), albeit that I personally judge the risk to be very low.
 
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CheesyChips

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But there's a huge difference between us on this forum postulating and the OP being stood in front of a magistrate thinking "if only I'd just paid the PF".

Cases like this can quite easily go off the rails (pun intended) and even if they don't result in conviction, the process is very unpleasant.
 

Bletchleyite

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Paying the PF and appealing: worst case, £20 lost.

Not paying the PF and appealing: worst case, RoRA prosecution and three figure fine.

Which of those makes more sense? I think it is ludicrous that appealing does not stop the clock, but the facts are that it does not, therefore I would pay and complain, and pursue the complaint as far as necessary.
 

trainagogo

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So the appeal is in - more hassle, cost etc but I want to see common sense applied to this situation (I know, I know).

Thanks again guys, I'll keep you posted on what happens next.
 

miami

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Please, please, please, paulweaver, make sure that replies to people seeking advice are both relevant to the assistance that is requested and are factually reliable.

Nice snipping there :roll:

So the appeal is in - more hassle, cost etc but I want to see common sense applied to this situation (I know, I know).

Thanks again guys, I'll keep you posted on what happens next.

Once you win, I strongly suggest bringing it up with your MP, as I said (and DaveNewcastle disagreed), for every 100 people that get fined, the TOC just repays 10 who appeal. Letters page in the local newspaper may be worthwhile too, if anyone reads them any more, hopefully a few other people who have been incorrectly fined will be able to claim their money back, and possibly some pressure on the TOC via the MP and DFT will be brought.
 

bb21

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Once you win, I strongly suggest bringing it up with your MP, as I said (and DaveNewcastle disagreed), for every 100 people that get fined, the TOC just repays 10 who appeal. Letters page in the local newspaper may be worthwhile too, if anyone reads them any more, hopefully a few other people who have been incorrectly fined will be able to claim their money back, and possibly some pressure on the TOC via the MP and DFT will be brought.

I don't really understand this claim.

Firstly is this a verified statistic?

Secondly do you mean out of every 100 people that were correctly issued a Penalty Fare, 100 people who paid a Penalty Fare (of which the proportion of correct ones and incorrect ones is unclear), 100 people who were incorrectly issued a Penalty Fare, or else? It is virtually impossible to understand what you were trying to say here.
 

miami

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I don't really understand this claim.

Firstly is this a verified statistic?

Secondly do you mean out of every 100 people that were correctly issued a Penalty Fare, 100 people who paid a Penalty Fare (of which the proportion of correct ones and incorrect ones is unclear), 100 people who were incorrectly issued a Penalty Fare, or else? It is virtually impossible to understand what you were trying to say here.

It's a ratio.

1) We know people are incorrectly issues penalty fares (post #1)
2) We know that less than 100% of these people post on this forum (fairly obvious reasons I'd think)
3) We know that at least 2 members of the TOCs staff disagree with the fact that routes on thetrainline.com are valid even when told (post #13), and that they certainly don't take it on themselves to be confident of their acusations (like this case of Leighton Buzzard to Headstone Lane via Harrow)
4) We know of those incorrectly given a penalty fare, a percentage less than 100% will appeal (fairly obvious reasons I'd think)
5) Based on my own experience with IAS I suspect that not all these appeals will be accepted

Therefore a portion of people who have been issued incorrect penalty fares will have paid and not received any money back. Even if they did receive the money back it may have caused them financial issues and stress.

If it's 1 claim in 10, or 10 in 100, or a million in 100 million, that appeal, it's the same ratio. By all means make it that 6 in 10 appeal if you want, that means that only 40% have money taken off them by force, threats, or other unfair means. Doesn't make it right.
 

miami

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And the prosecuting TOC will prove intent how?

They shouldn't win, and I'm not sure how much the OPs time is worth, but I suspect it's more than £20 for half a day.
 

bnm

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He did say 'Worst case' - as in the theoretical worst that could happen, rather than what is likely.

Point still stands. In this case where is the intent?

We've had numerous posts talking of scenarios where the OP ends up in court. These are then qualified as 'unlikely', or 'theoretical'. So how does the theoretical RORA prosecution succeed?

My advice remains not to pay the £20 when submitting the appeal. That's what I'd be (not) doing. I see just as much hassle in trying to recover the £20.

Nothing done wrong. Nothing to pay.
 

najaB

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Point still stands. In this case where is the intent?
The OP held a ticket from A to B. There are direct trains from A to B. The OP however boarded a train from A to C where A to C has a higher fare than A to B.

That could be taken as intent to short fare on a journey from A to C.
 

Phil.

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What is the fare amount that is being talked about going from A - C then back to B? Single figures, tens, scores, hundreds.
Jus' wond'ring
 

najaB

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What is the fare amount that is being talked about going from A - C then back to B? Single figures, tens, scores, hundreds.
Jus' wond'ring
It's probably a pound or two at most. However a RoRA prosecution can be successful even when there is no difference in fare.
 

bnm

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It's probably a pound or two at most. However a RoRA prosecution can be successful even when there is no difference in fare.

"Can be successful"? I believe the question has been asked before on this forum as to whether there has ever been such a RORA case.
 

trainagogo

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The OP held a ticket from A to B. There are direct trains from A to B. The OP however boarded a train from A to C where A to C has a higher fare than A to B.

That could be taken as intent to short fare on a journey from A to C.

Have a look at the screenshot on page one. :)
 

najaB

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Have a look at the screenshot on page one. :)
That screenshot doesn't prove that the OP intended to actually travel to HAP. They could be using a loophole to get a cheaper fare to WTM.

I don't believe the OP was doing this, but the TOC could attempt a prosecution on that basis.
 

bb21

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I would be very surprised if such a prosecution were to succeed, even if the OP were to stop short at Witham, given the information provided by NRE.
 

najaB

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I would be very surprised if such a prosecution were to succeed, even if the OP were to stop short at Witham, given the information provided by NRE.
Oh, given the information provided I would be surprised if a prosecution were even attempted, but the question bnm asked is how could intent be inferred from the OP's actions. Short faring is usually taken as intent.
 

bb21

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Oh, given the information provided I would be surprised if a prosecution were even attempted, but the question bnm asked is how could intent be inferred from the OP's actions. Short faring is usually taken as intent.

Yes, while correct, this is straying far off.
 

bnm

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Indeed. And my advice remains the same. If not already done, don't send any money with the appeal/complaint.

You could end up in the situation where the TOC/appeals body takes the payment, closes the case and doesn't respond further. Appears that just such a thing has happened in another very recent thread.
 

jkdd77

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As an aside, it may be worth the OP keeping an eye on the related thread: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=126882 where another OP is planning to sue a TOC for recovery of a PF paid under protest under threat of prosecution despite (allegedly) holding a valid ticket.

This could be one potential course of action if this OP decides that the risk and hassle associated with not paying the PF is too great, which I would fully understand. The costs associated with losing in the county court would be less than those associated with any form of criminal conviction in the magistrates' court, and would not involve the possibility of a criminal record for dishonesty.

I believe that there could be a claim for rescission under the Misrepresentation Act 1967 or a claim for either rescission or damages (but not both at the same time) under the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (which prohibit misleading and aggressive commercial practices).

However, the OP would first need to exhaust all alternative avenues (such as the appeal body, Transport Focus and the TOC customer services) and send a valid letter before claim. It might also be prudent to wait six months before filing a claim, just in case the TOC decides to refund the PF and pursue a (vindictive?) prosecution instead.

In general terms, personally, if I was absolutely certain that my ticket was 100% valid, I would not pay anything extra, on the basis that:
1) the PF is invalid and unenforceable, and hence any so-called "administration fees" added following non-payment are equally invalid and unenforceable, since one cannot claim administration fees for chasing a non-existent debt;
2) as several members of this forum have found out, appealing is not guaranteed to be successful even when a ticket is wholly valid (the appeal body lacks independence, IMO), and is hassle in its own right;
3) whilst paying the PF is not an admission of guilt, it may be effectively treated as such by the TOC in that any subsequent unrelated ticketing dispute following payment of the PF would be treated more severely as a supposed "repeat offender";
4) taking matters further if the appeal is rejected will be enormous hassle and potentially involve considerable extra cost, particularly if I end up suing for recovery of the PF;
5) the TOC is presumably unlikely to prosecute a valid ticket-holder; if they do, I would be very confident in my ability to defend myself successfully and then to recover most of my costs from the TOC following acquittal, and would take a great sense of satisfaction from doing so;
6) in contrast to (3), the TOC would be less inclined to bully me in future following the presumed acquittal, and;
7) I consider that threatening a valid ticket holder with prosecution as a means of coercing him or her into paying an invalid PF, or other ransom demand, is likely an aggressive commercial practice under the CPUTR, and thus a criminal offence in its own right (one which, unlike blackmail, does not require mens rea), and I am disinclined to give criminals my money for the sake of an easy life.

Even in this circumstance, I would not simply ignore all correspondence, but rather would appeal (if available; there is no appeal mechanism against Northern's £80 Penalty Fakes) as a means of showing reasonableness and attempting to resolve the dispute quickly and simply. At the same time, I would write to the TOC to explain in detail why my ticket was valid, and to politely tell them that, regardless of the IPFAS ruling, any alleged debt is denied, as is the commission of any criminal offence on my part. I would add that, having paid the correct fare before travel, and having presented a valid ticket on demand, I would not paying anything more without a court order to that effect, and that any prosecution or county court claim would be vigorously defended, with an application for costs if my defence succeeds.

However, this is not intended either as specific advice to this OP or as generic advice, since each circumstance will differ, as will the attitude of an individual OP towards risk and hassle.
 
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sheff1

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In general terms, personally, if I was absolutely certain that my ticket was 100% valid, I would not pay anything extra, ...

<snip>

This ^^^

I now await a post from the usual suspect stating that this is bad advice but offering no explanation as to why it is bad advice and then ignoring any request to provide explanation.
 

najaB

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This ^^^

I now await a post from the usual suspect stating that this is bad advice but offering no explanation as to why it is bad advice and then ignoring any request to provide explanation.
There isn't any advice there.
 
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