Travel patterns between London and Oxford

[Goatboy]

Mod Note: Split from http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=91690

So its the TOCs fault that everyone wants to travel at the same time is it?

If you dont want to catch the busiest trains either travel earlier or later, there is only so much the TOCs can do and sometimes its the passengers problem.

I must admit I do look at photographs of hundreds and hundreds of people boarding Intercity trains at Oxford on the daily commute to London and can't help but wonder. Oxford is miles from London - the intention of the service provision to London was long distance not commuter hence the stock used. Perhaps there are societal issues here rather than TOC issues, is it really FGW's fault that so many people seem so desperate to commute hundreds of miles every single day because they want the lovely environment of places like Oxford but the money of London but then it's suddenly FGW's fault that it's Intercity trains can't transport thousands of people at the same time...

 

[HowardGWR]

I must admit I do look at photographs of hundreds and hundreds of people boarding Intercity trains at Oxford on the daily commute to London and can't help but wonder. Oxford is miles from London - the intention of the service provision to London was long distance not commuter hence the stock used. Perhaps there are societal issues here rather than TOC issues, is it really FGW's fault that so many people seem so desperate to commute hundreds of miles every single day because they want the lovely environment of places like Oxford but the money of London but then it's suddenly FGW's fault that it's Intercity trains can't transport thousands of people at the same time...

The thought of Oxford being 'a lovely environment' had me pondering. I suppose, like all cities, it depends which 'side of the tracks' you live.

 

[Goatboy]

Oxfordshire is a very desireable place to live, to claim otherwise is somewhat odd. Perhaps not every part of Oxfordshire, obviously.

 

[Buttsy]

Oxfordshire is a very desireable place to live, to claim otherwise is somewhat odd. Perhaps not every part of Oxfordshire, obviously.

Avoid certain areas of Bicester, Witney, Oxford, Didcot and Banbury...

I live in a decent bit of Oxford but used to live in Studentland where there was a fair bit of crime (broken into twice & car stolen in 5.5 years, since moving, nothing in 11 years...), so it's all about location, location, location.

I commute to Reading daily, so know that there are is a lot of London bound traffic, more than when I did the commute in 1992 as the rains were as full, but there were fewer of them (2ph to Reading, 1ph London off peak then, now 4ph Reading, 2ph London off peak).

 

[tripleseis]

As someone who grew up in Oxford, I'm always amused by people's reactions when I tell them I grew up there and they assume that I lived in Summertown, went to a posh school and then on to the university. In fact, I grew up in one of the dodgy areas, went to average schools (my upper school was actually very good academically) and dropped out of uni after one year.

 

[Buttsy]

As someone who grew up in Oxford, I'm always amused by people's reactions when I tell them I grew up there and they assume that I lived in Summertown, went to a posh school and then on to the university. In fact, I grew up in one of the dodgy areas, went to average schools (my upper school was actually very good academically) and dropped out of uni after one year.

Sounds like you lived in East Oxford and went to Oxford Boys...???

 

[tripleseis]

Got it in one. Blackbird Leys to be exact.

 

[Buttsy]

Got it in one. Blackbird Leys to be exact.

Oxford Boys is my alma mater too, but I was from Marston. I was there 1982-1987.

 

[Mojo]

is it really FGW's fault that so many people seem so desperate to commute hundreds of miles every single day because they want the lovely environment of places like Oxford but the money of London

Many people would be happy to live in London, but are priced out by the high cost of housing.

 

[3141]

Mod Note: Split from http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=91690



I must admit I do look at photographs of hundreds and hundreds of people boarding Intercity trains at Oxford on the daily commute to London and can't help but wonder. Oxford is miles from London - the intention of the service provision to London was long distance not commuter hence the stock used. Perhaps there are societal issues here rather than TOC issues, is it really FGW's fault that so many people seem so desperate to commute hundreds of miles every single day because they want the lovely environment of places like Oxford but the money of London but then it's suddenly FGW's fault that it's Intercity trains can't transport thousands of people at the same time...

Some years ago The Times published a letter which suggested that instead of printing stories about how terrible it was that people had to stand on their journey to work, newspapers could take the line that if you chose to live 60 miles and over an hour from where you worked you should put up with the consequences. But, the writer said, telling commuters how hard-done-by they were was more likely to sell papers than telling them they were fools.

Of course there are are many reasons why people choose where to live, including the affordability of the type of home they want and the kind of area they want to live in. 80-90 years ago the Metropolitan Railway was encouraging people to move to "Metroland" and live in the country, while spurring on housing developments that turned that countryside into suburbia.

We could double capacity on many commuter lines, by longer trains or additional tracks, but then the people who might benefit would complain about the higher fares or taxes necessary to pay for the works, and the media would run sob-stories about other people whose homes were demolished to make room for extra lines "so that bankers could get to work more quickly".

Perhaps it all demonstrates that things have consequences.

 

[Rich McLean]

People are commuting from further and further afield as the closer to London you get, the more expensive it is. There are quite a few that commute daily from Bristol, Exeter, Cardiff and beyond.

 

[stut]

It's not just about affordability of London - for those who are married and/or have children, there are compromises to be made. We no longer live in an era where it's just the man who works, and the family who follows him, nor do we live in an era where a long-term job is guaranteed or even expected.

Sometimes you just end up living somewhere that is a decent compromise, and where ou can actually put down some roots.

 

[Goatboy]

People are commuting from further and further afield as the closer to London you get, the more expensive it is. There are quite a few that commute daily from Bristol, Exeter, Cardiff and beyond.

But this is a choice they make, usually to be rewarded with the better salaries that London offers. Which is fair enough - its a choice people are absolutely entitled to make - but is it FGW's fault that the infrastructure on what was as an Intercity route is not actually ideally suited to now being a commuter route?

Commuter services were not in the design brief for the HST and, from what i can see, neither are they in the IEP...

 

[jopsuk]

Oxford to Paddington, according to RailMiles, is 63 miles and 62 chains
Cambridge to Kings Cross is 57 miles and 75 chains

That's roughly the same distance.

Cambridge has nine trains, some of which are 12 carriages long, arriving at Kings Cross before 9am. There's a further 10, slower, trains to Liverpool Street also arriving before 9am. Again, 8 & 12 carriages on several services.

All services use "outer suburban" commuter stock- 317s, 365s, 379s.

Oxford has 12 services arriving before 9am, leaving after 5am (I notice there's a 4am service!). Of these, as far as I can tell 5 use HSTs? The others will use Turbos- what's the maximum length for those services?

So, similar cities (Oxford's slightly larger), similar demographics, but Cambridge is better served for commuting.

 

[Taunton]

An HST plus 9 cars, one first class, will give 48 First and about 640 standard seats. At prevailing commuter fares between Oxford and London that is going to hold a huge amount of revenue from commuters, which a franchise operator should be able to provide for. Over a journey of this length inter-city seating standards are appropriate, not 3+2 in ever-narrower cross-section modern trains, and certainly not expecting anyone boarding at an intermediate stop to have to stand daily going to Paddington. Although the number of trains on the line to Paddington is pretty much at the limits now, there is considerable scope to provide longer and more efficient formations, and to meet the demand.

 

[MK Tom]

Oxford to London is also served by two competing fast coach routes. I know a lot of London workers living in Oxford use the Oxford Tube for its high service frequency and fairly lavish (for a coach) comfort standards.

Apropos Oxford being 'nice' or not, well it's a beautiful city as anyone should know. But it has its rough spots. Cowley and Blackbird being the obvious ones. Every city in the world has rough areas and nice areas though. Luton has nice bits. Barcelona has rough bits. That's just the human race for you really.

I live obviously in fairly intense commuter territory but I'm often surprised at how some people commute from as far as Stafford and places like that.

 

[jopsuk]

An HST plus 9 cars, one first class, will give 48 First and about 640 standard seats. At prevailing commuter fares between Oxford and London that is going to hold a huge amount of revenue from commuters, which a franchise operator should be able to provide for. Over a journey of this length inter-city seating standards are appropriate, not 3+2 in ever-narrower cross-section modern trains, and certainly not expecting anyone boarding at an intermediate stop to have to stand daily going to Paddington. Although the number of trains on the line to Paddington is pretty much at the limits now, there is considerable scope to provide longer and more efficient formations, and to meet the demand.

Oxford HSTs are 8 car, HD seating layout.

12-car 365 gives 72 first class, 717-735 standard class (plus 15-6 tip up seats). No catering. 2+2 throughout, both 1st and Standard. 245.7m long formation- this uses the ROSCO data sheet

Currently no power sockets, no wifi.

As noted, Oxford also has fast reliable coach services to London, something Cambridge lacks.

 

[GodAtum]

Many people would be happy to live in London, but are priced out by the high cost of housing.

I have the same dilemma. Either high cost housing/cheap ticket or low cost housing/expensive ticket.

 

[tbtc]

is it FGW's fault that the infrastructure on what was as an Intercity route is not actually ideally suited to now being a commuter route?

Commuter services were not in the design brief for the HST and, from what i can see, neither are they in the IEP...

As far as I understand, the current "fast" service from Oxford to London is going to continue every half hour, with generally only a couple of stops (Reading, plus one of Didcot/Slough?)?

In which case, IEP would be fine for that kind of service - its still a long way between stations, not a lot of intermediate stops.

Really, its for the railway to try to adapt to passenger demand, whether we think those journeys are desirable or not (just like the dismissive "why do people need to visit the shops on Boxing Day, can't they stop their obsessive consumerism" comments that we'll no doubt get when the "Christmas services" thread is inevitably opened in a few weeks time). It may take a long time to adapt to some travel patterns, but I think that IEP will suit the Oxford - London market.

 

[Tetchytyke]

if you chose to live 60 miles and over an hour from where you worked you should put up with the consequences.

True, to an extent. The consequences are that you have a two hour addition to your working day, and that you pay a lot of money for the journey.

The consequences are not that you get wedged into a cattle truck 165 because First Great Western only put five carriages on your train, when most other inter-urban commuter trains in London now have eight carriages as a minimum (and many have twelve).

A lot of people in Oxford do take either of the two express coach services to London instead. Why? It is cheaper and you get a seat.

 

[SWT_USER]

As part of my job I frequently have to drive down the A40 into London at the height of the morning peak. I'm amazed anyone would choose to travel by coach from Oxford daily over the train.

 

[dk1]

As part of my job I frequently have to drive down the A40 into London at the height of the morning peak. I'm amazed anyone would choose to travel by coach from Oxford daily over the train.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[The Planner]

£4532 a year on the train vs £1130 a year on the Oxford Tube which includes travel on Stagecoach through Oxfordshire. If you live anywhere on the Eastern side of town, it is a bit of a no brainer to be fair.

 

[NHG66]

Oxford to Paddington, according to RailMiles, is 63 miles and 62 chains
Cambridge to Kings Cross is 57 miles and 75 chains

That's roughly the same distance.

Cambridge has nine trains, some of which are 12 carriages long, arriving at Kings Cross before 9am. There's a further 10, slower, trains to Liverpool Street also arriving before 9am. Again, 8 & 12 carriages on several services.

All services use "outer suburban" commuter stock- 317s, 365s, 379s.

Oxford has 12 services arriving before 9am, leaving after 5am (I notice there's a 4am service!). Of these, as far as I can tell 5 use HSTs? The others will use Turbos- what's the maximum length for those services?

So, similar cities (Oxford's slightly larger), similar demographics, but Cambridge is better served for commuting.

You will be surprised just how full the 4am service gets as it approaches Paddington. Most of the early 'stoppers' from Oxford are diagrammed as 5 car sets i.e 3+2. As for the trains being much shorter than the Cambridge route, well most of the platforms on the route cannot take more than a 6 car set, a few less than that even. If Network Rail built the platforms longer ( I am not sure how they could do this at certain places ) and DafT provided for longer trains then I am sure FGW would love to run longer sets to reduce overcrowding. As for using longer sets, firstly there is not enough stock to allow this, secondly the turbos do not have SDO so to stop at a shorter platform requires part of the set to be locked out of use, defeats the object of being longer in the first place.

FGW try to do the best with the resources they have at their disposal, there isn't a magic wand to solve these issues you mention.

 

[al78]

You will be surprised just how full the 4am service gets as it approaches Paddington. Most of the early 'stoppers' from Oxford are diagrammed as 5 car sets i.e 3+2. As for the trains being much shorter than the Cambridge route, well most of the platforms on the route cannot take more than a 6 car set, a few less than that even. If Network Rail built the platforms longer ( I am not sure how they could do this at certain places ) and DafT provided for longer trains then I am sure FGW would love to run longer sets to reduce overcrowding. As for using longer sets, firstly there is not enough stock to allow this, secondly the turbos do not have SDO so to stop at a shorter platform requires part of the set to be locked out of use, defeats the object of being longer in the first place.

FGW try to do the best with the resources they have at their disposal, there isn't a magic wand to solve these issues you mention.

A couple of questions (just out of interest as I don't know the technicalities of the railway network.):

1. What is SDO?
2. Southern trains can serve stations with platforms shorter than the train. What is different about the FGW route that makes this not possible?

 

[W-on-Sea]

A couple of questions (just out of interest as I don't know the technicalities of the railway network.):

1. What is SDO?
2. Southern trains can serve stations with platforms shorter than the train. What is different about the FGW route that makes this not possible?

SDO = selective door opening (i.e the ability for the doors to be permitted to open in certain carriages or parts of carriages, but not in others).

The difference is not the route, but the trains used. The Turbos used on (most trains on) the London-Oxford route don't have this capability - they are substantially older than most of the trains that do have this capability elsewhere.

Also, if only it were really were cheaper to live in Oxford than in London!

 

[route:oxford]

East/South Oxford is also well served by Didcot, Reading & Haddenham & Thame Parkway.

Personally, I jump in the car at 07.25, drive to H&T parkway and can be outside Marylebone at 08.30.

 

[The Planner]

Which still costs £3652 if you are doing that for the year though with £960 for the annual car park ticket so you are well into the £4500+ territory.

 

[al78]

SDO = selective door opening (i.e the ability for the doors to be permitted to open in certain carriages or parts of carriages, but not in others).

The difference is not the route, but the trains used. The Turbos used on (most trains on) the London-Oxford route don't have this capability - they are substantially older than most of the trains that do have this capability elsewhere.

Also, if only it were really were cheaper to live in Oxford than in London!

Thanks for the info, makes sense now.

 

[tripleseis]

People choose the coach over the train in Oxford because it is cheaper, more frequent, serves the parts of Oxford people live in and actually goes to the centre of London. The train while quicker, is more expensive, only starts from the not so conveniently located station and only goes to Paddington - which isn't the best located London Terminus.

It'll be interesting to see how this changes in the next few years when the Chiltern services begin and Crossrail opens providing Paddington with much quicker onward journeys to the City and Canary Wharf. Electrification should also speed up journey times between Oxford and Paddington making the train more competitive.

Also, if only it were really were cheaper to live in Oxford than in London!

So true. Rents are on par with what I'm paying to live in South London unless you're council. Only I don't have to pay ridiculous season ticket prices to commute into work. Oxford salaries don't come with that little thing called "London Weighting". Some of my family have now moved out to West Oxfordshire as it's a lot cheaper out there.