Travelcard issued incorrectly

[junglejames]

Advice needed.

After buying 3 day returns to London, I went to add on 3 travelcards (didnt buy a travelcard from home, as they arent included in South Easterns 20% off offer.
Anyway, doing it this way, South Eastern wanted an extra £40. Not a cat in hells chance (its less than £6 with a Network Railcard. So i tried it another way. I invented a journey on the South Eastern booking engine between zones 1 and 6, knowing if i did this they would offer me a travelcard for zones 1 to 6. So i put in St Pancras to Kingston. Anyway, as i had thought, the booking engine offered me a zones 1 to 6 travelcard, £5.30 with the railcard. It definitely showed a travelcard was being offered when i pressed on the fare. So, booked it to pick up at Ashford today. Confirmation email showed journey i had put in, but also clearly stated the ticket was a 1 day travelcard.

Anyway, when i picked tickets up today, i ended up getting a 2 part return, St Pancras to Kingston. This seemed strange, but both parts still showed the ticket type- 'OFF PEAK TCDST'.

I was slightly bemused still, so spoke to guard on the train up to London. He looked at them, and said it was still a travelcard, but it may be best to zero excess it when i get to London to make sure.
Well St Pancras was too busy, so just tried one portion of the tickets. They let me into the underground. However get to Covent Garden, and the barriers were having none of it. Spoke to 2 guys on barrier and asked to go to ticket office to exchange for a proper looking travelcard. One of them looked at the tickets, and tried to tell me that tickets that colour are never valid on LU, and only valid on national rail (well i knew that was rubbish). The other guy looked closely, and told me they werent travelcards as they said '2 part return' on the top. Admittedly that was daft, but i pointed out the ticket type to him. He just brushed it off and said it definitely was not a travelcard, and said i must have pressed wrong button and made a mistake when booking (he refused to believe my story as to what the website had said i was buying). My dad had to step in and smooth it over!! Anyway, he let us through, but said they werent valid.
Well when we got to Charing Cross i went to zero excess them there at mainline station. After telling ticket clerk the story, he said he wouldnt touch them because they were brought over the internet.
So had no choice but to buy brand new travelcards.
Got them. Surprise surprise, exactly the same price as originals. Tickets came out, and surprise surprise, they had exactly the same ticket type (OFF PEAK TCDST). Although this time admittedly never said '2 part return'.

So, was the first guard right saying the originals were travelcards still, and i should zero excess them to a proper looking travelcard? Were they valid? If not, why did the website say they were offering me a travelcard.

I wouldnt have had to do it this way if the website had charged me the proper price when i went to add on 3 travelcards to my original Ashford to London tickets. But £40 was rediculous. Should have been £15.90.

Help!!

 

[MikeWh]

Oh dear. Looks like SETs website is broken. I suggest that you contact their customer services enclosing all the tickets and requesting a refund of the duplicates bought at Charing Cross. I don't know why the price is coming up wrong, but I agree it is. It all worked fine last week when I took my kids down to Dover. I purchased web returns from St Pancras and asked for travelcards as an optional extra. Correct prices charged all round. The travelcards had ticket type TCDST but also had "One Day Travelcard" in large letters across the top.

I think the reason you got 2-part returns is because that was what you asked for. It has charged you the right price but got confused about what sort of tickets to issue. For future reference, to get a travelcard select a random station in London as the origin and type London in the destination. The dropdown will offer suggestions and one of the earliest of those is London All Zones Travelcard. I'd be quite confident that that would print as single tickets with One Day Travelcard across the top.

 

[bb21]

The other possible source of conflict, although unlikely, is that if you put in the journey you require on SET's WEBTis system, and select the 'Single' option, it is displayed as a U1256 to Kingston (Don't ask me why.) for which the SDS costs £5.30 with a railcard. Still doesn't explain why it is issued as a '2 Part Return' though.

 

[John @ home]

After buying 3 day returns to London, I went to add on 3 travelcards (didnt buy a travelcard from home, as they arent included in South Easterns 20% off offer). Anyway, doing it this way, South Eastern wanted an extra £40.

I wonder if they were adding Peak rather than Off-Peak Travelcards.

I invented a journey on the South Eastern booking engine between zones 1 and 6, knowing if i did this they would offer me a travelcard for zones 1 to 6. So i put in St Pancras to Kingston. Anyway, as i had thought, the booking engine offered me a zones 1 to 6 travelcard, £5.30 with the railcard. It definitely showed a travelcard was being offered when i pressed on the fare. So, booked it to pick up at Ashford today. Confirmation email showed journey i had put in, but also clearly stated the ticket was a 1 day travelcard.

I agree that the Southeastern site does offer a One Day Travelcard for this journey.

Usually I buy a Zones 1-6 Travelcard by specifying [Any station in the Zones] to "London Zones 1-6". This avoids the difficulty you encountered. On the Southeastern site you can enter the code 0035 to generate "London Zones 1-6".

when i picked tickets up today, i ended up getting a 2 part return, St Pancras to Kingston. This seemed strange, but both parts still showed the ticket type- 'OFF PEAK TCDST'.

It seems you have stumbled across a coding error. I don't know how widespread it is, but there is at least a chance that this will happen for any point-to-point return journey within the Travelcard zones for which the computer substitutes a Travelcard because it's cheaper.

when we got to Charing Cross i went to zero excess them there at mainline station. After telling ticket clerk the story, he said he wouldnt touch them because they were brought over the internet.

Has the skill of dealing with an Exchange Travelcard been completely lost? A few years ago, this was a daily activity at London termini such as Charing Cross. From 1982 to 2006, many train guards had PORTIS equipment which printed tickets on a thermal roll of thin paper. Passengers boarding at unstaffed stations buying a Travelcard were issued with a paper ticket marked "Exchange Travelcard" and they needed to exchange this at a booking office before using the Underground.

So had no choice but to buy brand new travelcards.

Our first priority is to get you your money back. I agree with MikeWh that you should deal in the first instance with Southeastern Customer Services, but I find that train companies "lose" tickets sent to them with a claim for a refund and I would not send them originals in the first instance.

Keep your letter short. Just say you are seeking refunds because you had to buy replacement tickets as the originals were issued as 2-part returns in error, were not accepted on the Underground, and that Southeastern staff at Charing Cross refused to exchange them. Enclose scans or photocopies of both sets of tickets.

Although this time admittedly never said '2 part return'.

I think this is likely to be the heart of the matter. For a few decades, the British railway ticketing system has been designed around one-part single and 2-part return tickets. Multi-journey Travelcards were added to the system as single tickets in order that only one coupon was issued. What appears to have happened is that the system knew to issue a Travelcard because that was cheaper than the return ticket requested, but didn't know that it also had to change the ticket type from return to single so that only one coupon was printed.

If you have access to a scanner, I'm sure there are people on this forum who would like to see a 2-part Travelcard.

 

[Daniel]

Well St Pancras was too busy, so just tried one portion of the tickets. They let me into the underground.

Next time, don't do this. Even a ticket with a singular vadility can get you through the barriers at King's Cross St. Pancras LU due to some obscure routing history. It is important to remember than London Underground stations cannot excess, and whilst I understand you don't want to queue, if you know you need a ticket excessed, you should be finding a National Rail ticket office before attempting to enter the Underground. I know your case is slightly different as your ticket was effectively a travelcard, but I am highlighting that you knew you did have an issue, which was resolveable prior to entering the Underground, and would have stopped you having issues at Covent Garden.

However get to Covent Garden, and the barriers were having none of it.

This would co-ordinate with your ticket being programmed as a cross-London ticket. You're allowed 1 LUL journey on a cross-London ticket, in your example the intended journey is King's Cross to Waterloo. You are allowed to break your journey at an LU station en-route on this journey only, but you will have used your 1 LUL journey and will not be allowed to re-enter - (basically, if you break your journey on LU, with a point-to-point, the LU vadility for your ticket is now nil). Again, this doesn't quite apply as your ticket was effectively a travelcard, I am just explaining why you got through the barriers at King's Cross but not Covent Garden.

Spoke to 2 guys on barrier and asked to go to ticket office to exchange for a proper looking travelcard. One of them looked at the tickets, and tried to tell me that tickets that colour are never valid on LU, and only valid on national rail (well i knew that was rubbish).

Well, can only apologize that you were told that, we both know it's wrong.

The other guy looked closely, and told me they werent travelcards as they said '2 part return' on the top. Admittedly that was daft, but i pointed out the ticket type to him.

Okay, heres where maybe TFL's training falls down. If you board a bus, there are only two things the driver checks - that your ticket is valid for todays date, and that it says "Travelcard" on the top. As far as I can remember, LU staff are trained that a travelcard will say "Travelcard" on the top, and if it doesn't, then it isn't.
London Underground station staff are not explicitly trained on National Rail "Ticket Types".

He just brushed it off and said it definitely was not a travelcard, and said i must have pressed wrong button and made a mistake when booking (he refused to believe my story as to what the website had said i was buying). My dad had to step in and smooth it over!! Anyway, he let us through, but said they werent valid.

Well, again, sorry if you were accused for something you didn't do. At least he let you through, I suppose.


Although in the title of your thread, you say "(LU experts where are you)", your questions don't quite seem to request a resonse from someone regarding LU matters. I was directed to this thread, but all I can really do is apologise, there aren't any questions for me to answer here. I will comment on this:

So, was the first guard right saying the originals were travelcards still, and i should zero excess them to a proper looking travelcard? Were they valid? If not, why did the website say they were offering me a travelcard.

I would say the originals were travelcards, yes. However if I personally were manually checking I would have refused you entry at King's Cross and requested that you zero excess your ticket into a proper travelcard before you entered the network.
The issue wasn't there vadility, it was the coding on the tickets. Whilst I do not doubt that you are not at fault, as they are National Rail tickets they should ideally be rectified prior to using LUL services.

 

[junglejames]

Thankyou all.
You may think you havent been able to answer anything Daniel, but you did.
Thankyou.
I'll get hold of South Eastern and tell them i wasnt able to zero excess my tickets at all, and had to buy extras.

I shall attempt to scan in the original tickets and put them up here.
But its basically a 2 part return 'kingston to St Pancras' (which is what i asked for), but with the exact same price as a travelcard (with Network Railcard), and the same ticket type code as a travelcard.

 

[MikeWh]

I shall attempt to scan in the original tickets and put them up here.
But its basically a 2 part return 'kingston to St Pancras' (which is what i asked for), but with the exact same price as a travelcard (with Network Railcard), and the same ticket type code as a travelcard.

I can see the logic in what they have done, but if they're going to charge for a travelcard then they ought to issue one really. Anyway, you know what to ask for next time now: Any station within zonal area to London All Zones Travelcard.

 

[junglejames]

I can see the logic in what they have done, but if they're going to charge for a travelcard then they ought to issue one really. Anyway, you know what to ask for next time now: Any station within zonal area to London All Zones Travelcard.

I do. Thanks
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ha. called South Eastern and they said they did issue a valid travelcard. They have looked at booking, and confirmed it is a travelcard i brought, and it was a travelcard issued, despite it saying 2 part return on it. They said LU should have accepted it, so its LUs fault, and they should refund it. Called an Oyster helpline that SE gave me the number for. They have said SE are passing the buck. Also tried to claim it wasnt a travelcard if it never said Travelcard in big letters up top!! He has said he will find out the correct procedures and call me back.
This is daft!!

 

[MikeWh]

You really do need to send a request for compensation in writing. They are not going to resolve this over the phone, no matter how much urgency you attach to your voice. You will need to send copies of all the tickets concerned along with a concise letter explaining your problems. The major point is that without the word Travelcard across the top of the ticket London Underground staff are not going to accept it as a travelcard. Once you get a reply to this letter, if they have not refunded you, then send a letter to London TravelWatch who will take the matter up on your behalf. I'm afraid you do have to give each company the chance to resolve this issue properly. Ideally all letters should be factual and concise without any emotion.

 

[junglejames]

You really do need to send a request for compensation in writing. They are not going to resolve this over the phone, no matter how much urgency you attach to your voice. You will need to send copies of all the tickets concerned along with a concise letter explaining your problems. The major point is that without the word Travelcard across the top of the ticket London Underground staff are not going to accept it as a travelcard. Once you get a reply to this letter, if they have not refunded you, then send a letter to London TravelWatch who will take the matter up on your behalf. I'm afraid you do have to give each company the chance to resolve this issue properly. Ideally all letters should be factual and concise without any emotion.

Oh i didnt expect it to be solved over the phone. I just wanted to check what they said about it.
They checked the tickets i ordered on line, and concluded they should have been accepted by LU as travelcards. I can see SEs stance, that the ticket type on the cards was saying they were off peak travelcards, and so its LUs problem. Perhaps more training regarding tickets is needed on LU?

Called LU, and the guy there seemed to think SE were passing the buck, but he set up a case file for me, and told me to email scans of the tickets into them so they can look into it.

Im not rushing anybody. Im just waiting for somebody to accept responsibility.
We shall see.

 

[Daniel]

Er, for what it's worth, I agree with LU CSC on this.

The ticket type may well have show that it should have been a travelcard, but the ticket wasn't printed as a travelcard, it was printed as a two part return.
I see this as an issuing error which should be dealt with by the issuer.

The other thing to highlight here is that your tickets were accepted on LU.
You were allowed to exit the LU station without paying any additional fare.

A key point to remember is that you attempted to excess at a National Rail station, and you were refused. If it was a travelcard already, then you should have been issued with a free exchange, much similar to if the magnetic strip on the ticket isn't working.
You were purchased the additional travelcards (from a NR station?) as you had no choice, because the NR station refused to excess (or exchange) your NR ticket.
Your ticket allowed you to enter LU, and, although the validity was questioned upon exit, you were allowed to exit the gateline without payment of an additional fare.

I don't quite see the argument that it is LU's responsibility to re-emburse you - (note, that statement more in reply to SouthEastern than to you).

 

[junglejames]

For those interested in what SouthEastern printed off. Here are my 'Travelcards to confuse LU'!!!

 

[junglejames]

Sorry, ive just attached the scan i sent to LU, so thats why youve got all 3 of them!

 

[MikeWh]

That's an interesting concoction they've printed there. Normally 2-part return is printed at the bottom of the ticket. They've printed it where travelcard would normally appear, including alongside the roundel. However, the ticket says St Pancras to Kingston which is not a travelcard and LU do not read or understand the NR ticket types, so I can see why they had issues with them.

 

[junglejames]

Er, for what it's worth, I agree with LU CSC on this.

The ticket type may well have show that it should have been a travelcard, but the ticket wasn't printed as a travelcard, it was printed as a two part return.
I see this as an issuing error which should be dealt with by the issuer.

The other thing to highlight here is that your tickets were accepted on LU.
You were allowed to exit the LU station without paying any additional fare.

A key point to remember is that you attempted to excess at a National Rail station, and you were refused. If it was a travelcard already, then you should have been issued with a free exchange, much similar to if the magnetic strip on the ticket isn't working.
You were purchased the additional travelcards (from a NR station?) as you had no choice, because the NR station refused to excess (or exchange) your NR ticket.
Your ticket allowed you to enter LU, and, although the validity was questioned upon exit, you were allowed to exit the gateline without payment of an additional fare.

I don't quite see the argument that it is LU's responsibility to re-emburse you - (note, that statement more in reply to SouthEastern than to you).

Oh i can see that point yes, and the tickets shouldnt have printed out as they did. But if the LU staff had known to look deeper into tickets, they would also have known. Thats basically what SE are saying i think.
The reason South Eastern at Charing Cross wouldnt exchange them, or zero excess them, is because they were brought online. South Eastern have confirmed today that station staff will not touch tickets brought online. Seems stupid really.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's an interesting concoction they've printed there. Normally 2-part return is printed at the bottom of the ticket. They've printed it where travelcard would normally appear, including alongside the roundel. However, the ticket says St Pancras to Kingston which is not a travelcard and LU do not read or understand the NR ticket types, so I can see why they had issues with them.

Oh so can I now. At the time i never realised they didnt understand the codes under 'ticket type'.
Its a strange one. No one wants to take responsibility. Anyway, will wait to hear back from LU. Have emailed it all to them now.

What really annoys me is that no stations would touch those tickets to exchange them, because i brought them online. That meant it was always going to be impossible to sort out yesterday, and i was always going to have to buy extra.

 

[causton]

I am worried the same will happen when I book tickets to go to London on the 15th May - the tickets I want are the weekend-only super off peak travelcards (from HAT).

The info page is http://www.buytickets.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/tickettermsandconditions.aspx?TicketTypeCode=WRE:00000 - don't know if that works without starting a session by booking the journey first though!

Obviously the ticket type database has been mixed up as they've got the c2c description "Available on c2c flows Shoeburyness to London inclusive (Including Travelcard)."

However, on the website the ticket is not shown with a travelcard symbol - there is a screenshot here. I hope this is just down to poor website coding - and something similar will not happen in my case! It could be that someone has just not ticket 'Travelcard' option in the database for that ticket (perhaps it's because it only says Travelcd and there is a text search function which doesn't recognise it) and if I go to proceed further it asks me if I want to add a travelcard - to what is already a travelcard!

*PS: Can someone help me find this ticket type in Avantix as I don't know what special station needs to be entered in the destination.
*PPS: Any difference in fares shown is because I hope to have a railcard by that date - so I checked for railcard fares. Standard priced ticket is £13 for a super off peak t/cd, £8 for a CBA ticket HAT - London Terminals.

 

[Mojo]

Set the origin as any station within the zones for which you want to travel, and for the destination type in London Zones 1- and then select the appropriate option from the menu which will appear.

 

[island]

The destination you're after is 0035 (LONDON ZONES 1-6).

 

[causton]

Thanks! I was entering London ZONE, not London ZONES...

 

[SouthStand]

The destination you're after is 0035 (LONDON ZONES 1-6).

Sorry, slightly off-topic, what is the destination number (so I can buy online at eastcoast site) for boundary zone 6?

Thanks.

 

[transportphoto]

Sorry, slightly off-topic, what is the destination number (so I can buy online at eastcoast site) for boundary zone 6?

Thanks.

0072 - however BZ tickets are not generally available online

 

[junglejames]

For anyone interested. I have eventually got a response from TFL. Hows that for a speedy response!!
They have pointblankly refused to give a refund, saying the original tickets are definitely not valid Travelcards, because they dont say the word Travelcard on them!
So you have SouthEastern saying they are valid, and TFL saying they're not. End result. Nobody taking any responsibility, and no refund.

 

[John @ home]

For anyone interested. I have eventually got a response from TFL. Hows that for a speedy response!!
They have pointblankly refused to give a refund, saying the original tickets are definitely not valid Travelcards, because they dont say the word Travelcard on them!
So you have SouthEastern saying they are valid, and TFL saying they're not. End result. Nobody taking any responsibility, and no refund.

Time for London Travelwatch. My experience is that they are good with personal cases like this.

 

[MikeWh]

For anyone interested. I have eventually got a response from TFL. Hows that for a speedy response!!
They have pointblankly refused to give a refund, saying the original tickets are definitely not valid Travelcards, because they dont say the word Travelcard on them!
So you have SouthEastern saying they are valid, and TFL saying they're not. End result. Nobody taking any responsibility, and no refund.

OK. You bought the original tickets from SET which TfL have now provided written evidence that they do not consider the tickets to be what SET considers them to be. I would send the letter from TfL to SET requesting a refund within 14 days or you will seek legal redress through the courts.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

As Southeastern has now had the opportunity to try to "resolve" the problem, and hasn't, you can now contact one of the independent statutory bodies established to assist passengers with unresolved complaints .

Address is:-

London TravelWatch
6 Middle Street
London EC1A 7JA

Tel: 020 7505 9000
Fax: 020 7505 9003

[email protected]
www.londontravelwatch.org.uk

 

[RJ]

If it helps, I have an image of another Travelcard purchased online gone wrong, will upload in due course.

 

[junglejames]

OK. You bought the original tickets from SET which TfL have now provided written evidence that they do not consider the tickets to be what SET considers them to be. I would send the letter from TfL to SET requesting a refund within 14 days or you will seek legal redress through the courts.

Nice idea. Unfortunately everything is now being done via email, as im not at home right now, and wont be for the next 2 months. So a letter is out of the question, and i dont think the threat of courts should be made via email.

In fact, id all but given up hope of hearing from TFL, and had virtually forgotten about the whole thing.
Think i will try emailing Travelwatch.

 

[John @ home]

Think i will try emailing Travelwatch.

Good. My advice remains as in post #4:

Keep your letter short. Just say you are seeking refunds because you had to buy replacement tickets as the originals were issued as 2-part returns in error, were not accepted on the Underground, Southeastern staff at Charing Cross refused to exchange them and, after many weeks of delay, TfL have refused to give a refund.

 

[junglejames]

A funny conclusion to this. I never bothered with Travelwatch in the end. I just left it, and put it down to experience.
Anyway, having now got back home, and checked all my post. I have found a cheque from TFL for the refund. Full amount as well. Stupid thing is. This was sent before the email telling me it wasnt their problem! Twice I emailed them back telling them they are blind if they couldnt see it was a Travelcard (id given up on niceties), and both times they came back saying they had looked again, and it definitely wasnt their problem. Yet all the time i had a cheque from them sitting on the doormat!!
Do TFL actually know what they are doing?! What would have happened if they had eventually given in and accepted it was their fault? Would i have got a 2nd cheque through the post?!!!

 

[bb21]

A classic case of left hand not knowing what right hand is doing I'm afraid. Glad it's been sorted.