Trivia: Place names that you're not sure how to pronounce

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by AY1975, 28 Jun 2017.

  1. mmh

    mmh Established Member

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    No, you are wrong I'm afraid. What you're hearing as "should a key" is more than likely "sut dach chi". Every language has colloquial short forms, sigh.

    Unfortunately, even though I actually find conversations about linguistic differences really interesting I imagine there's no point continuing one with you. I tried to explain what I see the difference between dialect and accent being, but you just responded rudely and with another your rants about North Walians. Did one rub you up the wrong way or something? If you spoke the way you do on here I'm not surprised.
     
  2. Y Ddraig Coch

    Y Ddraig Coch Member

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    Nonsense. Sut wyt ti, is the correct, for how are you. Also there isn't any "nonsense" about Welsh being phonetic, it is, as long as you understand the Welsh language and alphabet.

    To the the English Araf (slow) is said Araf, but if you are Welsh it is arav and so long as you understand in Welsh one f = v and ff =f then araf = arav then it's phonetic.
     
  3. krus_aragon

    krus_aragon Established Member

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    Spot on. North Walians have a bit of a case for the claim, given the fact that the earliest Welsh dictionaries were written by Northeners, but there's no primacy for any form of colloquial, regional Welsh. There is a standard form of literary Welsh, but that's the written form you find in books, which is old fashioned by the standards of everyday conversation. If you use literary Welsh on the street with people, they'll wonder why you're "talking like a book"...

    Ah, here you seem to be confusing phonicity(sp?) with dialectualism. The language is phonetic, in that only one* sound is represented by each letter/digraph, and it doesn't change from word to word. (*Vowels have short and long forms, depending on whether they're in a stressed syllable, but that's still very consistent.) There's nothing like the situation with 'c' in English, which can represent two different sounds (car, circle) but without much guidance which is usen where.

    The pronunciation of vowels will change from place to place within Wales, for example as an Anglesey lad I tend to pronounce several vowels (such as 'e') more like an 'a' than other areas. (Consonants are quite constant.) This is the influence of accent. The radically different pronunciation for "syt ydych chi" that you describe is dialect.

    The first word's change is largely a regional variation through accent, and if one were to write in that dialect it would be done "shwt". (Note it's a change of vowel sound, along with a blur of 's' into 'sh' next to a vowel.)

    The second word has changed due to skipping out part of the word "ydych". Rather than use the full formal form, most dialects use a reduced, one-syllable form of this common, everyday word. In my neck of the world, we tend to drop the first letter, giving 'dych. (In an Anglesey accent, the vowel also turns into an 'a' sound, as I described above.) Other areas drop the first two letters (giving 'ych), and in West Wales the accent comes into play, turning the long 'y' sound into a long 'i' (ee), or variations thereof (ay, ey) depending on where you are.

    On the other hand, if one were reading the more formal phrase "syt ydych chi" from a book or sign, one would usually just read it out as is, with accent on the vowels, but without reprocessing the words dialectually.

    Note that these issues of dialect don't tend to be an issue with Welsh placenames in Wales: the names of places are considered formal, so you'll only find variations in vowels due to accent. (Blaenau sounds like "Blaena" Ffestiniog up north. or "Blaine" Gwent down south). There are local dialectual nicknames (such as 'Stiniog for the above) but these exist in parallel to the formal names, not as a replacement.
     
  4. Warwick

    Warwick Member

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    On the naughty step again.
    . Just spotted this. Mousehole - I live three miles away - should be pronounced as, "Mowzel". Only Emmets who think that they know pronounce it as "Muzzel".
     
  5. Teflon Lettuce

    Teflon Lettuce Established Member

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    No YOU are wrong... it is definitely "should a key".... when I took Welsh lessons the tutor even WROTE it on the board as such to give guidance how to say it!

    What rant? all I said was that CERTAIN North Walians... just in the same way that I might say CERTAIN Geordies or CERTAIN Londoners... I can only assume you are North Walian and hold the views that I stated and I've hit a raw nerve lol

    I am fully aware of the Welsh alphabet. There are 2 forms for "how are you" in Welsh 1, the one you quote, using 2nd person singular which is used familiarly {ie family members, those you know well, and to people of a younger generation than yourself} and one using 2nd person plural, which is the one I quoted and is used for everyone else.

    As it was explained in my very first Welsh lesson.. Welsh isn't one language, it is a collection of 4 languages... North, South, Pembroke and Ecclesiastic {Classical?}

    Ah, here you seem to be confusing phonicity(sp?) with dialectualism. The language is phonetic, in that only one* sound is represented by each letter/digraph, and it doesn't change from word to word.....On the other hand, if one were reading the more formal phrase "syt ydych chi" from a book or sign, one would usually just read it out as is, with accent on the vowels, but without reprocessing the words dialectually.[/QUOTE]

    The thing is if we said SEET uh- dikh khi the teacher didn't say "that's correct but it's too formal here's what it contracts to" she always said we were WRONG.

    Another example of how Welsh isn't always as phonetical as Welsh speakers would like to think... Buses... in Welsh singular is Bws plural is Bysiau.. now knowing that "si" in Welsh is "sh" how should Bysiau be pronounced? some say Bus-EE-eye... others Buhsh- eye!

    I am fascinated by Welsh, mainly due to the fact that my Nan was Welsh of the 1st generation after the "Welsh Knot" was abolished.. but I've got to say that, whilst it is more phonetic than a lot of languages it isn't PURELY phonetic, especially in the spoken form... also a lot of Welsh speakers would like you to believe that Welsh is a "pure" language ie until recent times it hasn't taken loan words from other languages... and yet the Welsh for window is? Ffenestr... a loan word from Latin!
     
  6. PHILIPE

    PHILIPE Established Member

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    Everybody calls the resort Porthcawl but wonder why I call it "Porthcowl"
     
  7. krus_aragon

    krus_aragon Established Member

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    I shan't start criticising another teacher's methods of teaching, paricularly in a discipline that is not my specialism. What I will say is that I know that when introducing a new field, it can be easier to convey a simplified concept that is still basically correct than launch straight into all the academic nuances. In my field that'd be teaching the standard model of the atom (proton, neuton, electron) to high school pupils when we know that the model doesn't work for everything at A-Level or University level. In your case, it's a tutor of Welsh (for adults?) making sure the group concentrates on memorising one correct phrasing, and ignoring the more fiddly bits that may not be of interest to most of the class. Your teacher hasn't taught you anything incorrect, but in the words of Obi-Wan Kenobi may have taught you some things that are correct from a certain point of view.

    Yes, I was reminded about this phenomenom when writing my previous response. I don't know the background of this linguistic element well enough to try to explain it to others, hence why I glazed over it at the time. It's something I want to look deeper into myself, as it happens.

    I am overjoyed that you find such interest in the language. My "family connection" is one of being raised in a bilingual household and receiving a bilingual/Welsh-medium education, but having then married an English woman who displays an interest herself (and is supposrtive of our raising a bilingual household ourselves). The questions she's asked me over the years have often forced me to stop and analyse this language that I've always spoken naturally without needing to know all the rules.



    I'll happily defer to anyone that tells me that Welsh is not a purely phonetic language: I'm only an amateur linguist and only speak two and a half languages (plus a smattering of words and phrases from others). I can confidently say that it's among the most phonetic that I know of, and when I was told as an adult of the "new" approach of teaching children to read through phonics, I was underwhelmed at the novelty of the idea, as it felt like the obvious default in Welsh. I will hasten to add that I happily sit down to watch the phonetic program Alphablocks with my kids!

    Language purity is a load of piffle. While I try not to code-switch (swap English words into a non-English sentence) when speaking, I know full well that all languages that interface with others share and exchange terms and sounds. Incidentally, a series on Radio Cymru by Ifor ap Glyn, Hanes yr Iaith mewn 50 Gair (A History of the Language in 50 Words) included the word "braich" (arm). As a Roman loan word, he pointed out that it was inconcievable that the early Britons had been walking around for centuries without a word to describe the limb attached to their shoulder, but rather that they had separate names for the upper and lower arm, and that the new Roman term for the whole arm was useful enough to adopt.
     
    Last edited: 9 Sep 2018
  8. Teflon Lettuce

    Teflon Lettuce Established Member

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    well we know from history books that the Romans didn't think the Britons were 'armless!:D

    On a more serious note, another fascination of mine is where did the "ll" sound come from.. my interest was sparked when a certain Icelandic volcano blew it's top a couple of yrs ago and I learned that the "ll" in Icelandic is the same as in Welsh... now considering that Iceland is a Viking nation, and the Vikings visited and settled parts of Wales it begs the question... did the Welsh pinch the sound {and spelling} from the Vikings or did the Vikings pinch it from us?
     
  9. krus_aragon

    krus_aragon Established Member

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    I never knew about that Icelandic connection. The old Welsh term for Scandinavia is Llychlyn, from which the modern term for Viking (Llychlynnwr) comes. Perhaps there is something in your suspicion...
     
  10. AY1975

    AY1975 Member

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    The last two intermediate stations on the Esk Valley Line before Whitby:

    Sleights="Slights" (rather than "Slates")
    Ruswarp="Russop" (rather than "Russ-warp")
     
  11. AY1975

    AY1975 Member

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    Three more that I'm not sure about:

    Worle, near Weston-super-Mare: Is it like "war" with le on the end, or "whirl"?

    Broughty Ferry: I presume it's as in "ought" or "brought"? (Oughtibridge, a.k.a. Oughty Bridge, between Sheffield and Deepcar on the possibly soon to be reopened Don Valley Railway, is pronounced "Ooty Bridge", though: it looks (pun intended) as if it OUGHT to be pronounced like "ought" or "thought"!)

    Corrour: Is it "Cor-oor" or as it is spelt ("Corr-our" as in "our" or "hour")? I've heard it pronounced both ways.
     
  12. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Broughty Ferry was always prounced as “Brotty” by my late uncle, born there.
     
  13. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    Broughty Ferry - As it looks Brought-y Ferry

    Corrour - the name is derived from the Gaelic Coire Odhar. It's locally pronounced as your second option - Corr-our.

    Worle I always thought was Warl not Wirl.

    Edit: it is Wirl, wiki confirms it.
     
    Last edited: 24 Oct 2018
  14. Dhassell

    Dhassell Member

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    Whirl.
     
  15. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    To be excessively pedantic I assume you mean just wirl. For Scottish (and many Irish) English speakers wh is rendered as hw - ie Whisky is pronounced hwisky. So whirl is hwirl for me which is not I think how Worle is said.
     
  16. Dhassell

    Dhassell Member

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    Wur-le is how I would say it and its 2 miles up the road haha.
     
  17. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    That's what I gathered you meant by whirl
     
  18. mmh

    mmh Established Member

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    Like whirl. Probably the smallest station I've ever got an HST to/from.
     
  19. 61653 HTAFC

    61653 HTAFC Established Member

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    I always thought Corrour was pronounced "Curra", with an abrupt, not-quite glottal stop at the end (think like "fella").
    Every day is a school day!
     
  20. PaulLothian

    PaulLothian Member

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    Which is why a Scot should never confuse Wales and whales!
     
  21. DuncanS

    DuncanS Member

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    Broughty Ferry is definitely Brotty, used to stay in Monifieth and that was the way locals pronounced it.
     
  22. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    It's difficult to spell things phonetically as different people have different ways of pronouncing certain things - to try and she'll it as phonetically as I can: cuh-row (as in an argument)-er

    Indeed, or whine and wine for that matter! ;)

    For a Scottish speaker, such as myself, Brotty with a short O is phonetically how I would pronounce Broughty. For certain accents of English the O in ought is lengthened and so with hindsight I accept Brotty reflects the correct short O better.

    But for me the word brought and the brought in Broughty Ferry are pronounced identically.
     
  23. Parallel

    Parallel Established Member

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    Are Deganwy and Glan Conwy said the same as Conwy in English, as in ‘Way’ on the end instead of ‘wee’?
     
  24. krus_aragon

    krus_aragon Established Member

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    Exactly the same. They all have the "wee" or "wih" sound in Welsh, but many English speakers pronounce them "way" instead.

    "Degan-way" is relatively rare to hear, though, and few local residents would say it like that: even the non-Welsh speakers. I think it's probably more common with (Glan) Conwy because the signs used to use the Anglicised "Conway" spelling, whereas there was no such variant for Deganwy.

    (Older people who'd have known the old signs are more likely to say "way". Similarly, my English mother-in-law was recently quizzing me about the correct spelling of Porthmadog/Portmadoc. When I explained that the latter was on all the road signs until the 1970s, she suddenly understood why she was confused about it.)
     
  25. Pigeon

    Pigeon Member

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    It's "Pork maggot".

    Anyway, I find it amusing to pronounce "Abermule" as "Abermilly".

    On a similar note, the line through Toton is the EARWASH Valley line and I'll not have anyone tell me different.

    And the junction where you turn left for Woodhead is PENIS TONE. Which in conjunction with a similarly genitally-named place on the other side of the Pennines gives us the name of that well-known Lancashire/Yorkshire fusion band, Penis Tone and the Clit Heroes.

    Billericay is infuriating. There's no excuse for it not being "Bill Eric A" and on top of that it ought to be in Ireland, so it's wrong twice.

    Best foreign mispronunciation I've heard: a German chap on the Bakerloo line talking about "Ed-G-Var Road". It's impossible to convey in textual form an adequate impression of the uncanny rapid precision of his tongue clicking around that awkward combination of sounds like a rifle bolt.

    Best foreign mispronunciation for everyday use: "Loogabarooga" for "Loughborough", because it just sounds so good.

    No British TV presenter ever pronounces "Afghanistan" correctly.
     
  26. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    How should it be pronounced, then?
     
  27. Pigeon

    Pigeon Member

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    Impossible to represent in text. Wait until someone who lives there shows up on the TV.
     
  28. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    Fair enough
     
  29. Requeststop

    Requeststop Member

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    Lived and worked in Baku for eight and a half years. They don't understand why people in the media call their country Azer-Bai-Zhaaaan. They spell their country's name Azerbaycan, or in the local Script Azərbaycan. The Turkic letter C being pronounced as a hard English J.
     
  30. 37 418

    37 418 Member

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    For starters the gh is approximately the guttural French 'r' or Dutch 'g'.
     

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