EM2
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Talking of Bradford, how should Frizinghall be pronounced? I've always assumed it was 'Fritz...' but a traffic report on the radio the other day mentioned 'Frizz...'
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Trivia: Place names that you're not sure how to pronounce
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alexf380
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I'd always thought it was "Fry-z" for Frizinghall.
Don't know if it has already been mentioned (have not seen it from a quick browse through the thread)
I have only recently stopped pronouncing Worcester as War-Chester, use to make for some comedic phone calls for a customer travelling to Worcester Shrub Hill/Foregate Street
I have only recently stopped pronouncing Worcester as War-Chester, use to make for some comedic phone calls for a customer travelling to Worcester Shrub Hill/Foregate Street
Betws-y-coed, I thought was betsy-ih-coed
DavidGrain
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Although I am not a Welsh speaker, I can tell you that 'w' is a vowel in Welsh pronounced 'oo'. I would pronounce Betws-y-Coed as Betoos-i-Co-ed. I have been there on a Bws! There is a town in South Wales called Ebbw Vale which also has a 'w' pronounced 'oo'.
Me and anyone I’ve ever met has called it Bets-ee-co-id. I’m not sure how to process what you’ve put. I’m not saying I’m right, but no ones ever pulled me up on it on my visits.
It's fairly common to hear English visitors say that, so people will know where you mean and you're unlikely to be corrected - out loud, at least
In English it would be "bet-oos uh coy-d" (the oo isn't exact, but I don't think there's an identical sound in English)
krus_aragon
Established Member
You are mistaken, but you're far from being the only one to have laboured under that misunderstanding. Mmh's pronunciation guide is pretty spot on, though I might suggest "bet-oos uh coy'd" to emphasise that there are four syllables, with emphasis on the first and fourth.
When you have large numbers of visitors who aren't familiar with Welsh orthography you might not have the time or inclination to correct everyone. My impression is, however, that these days more visitors to Wales are "getting placenames right".
A (rail-)connected example is Llandudno. Visitors for decades have pronounced it as Llan-dud-noh, whereas a Welsh pronunciation (transcribed) would be Llan-did-no'. The class 175 automated announcer was recorded using one pronunciation for Llandudno, and the other for Llandudno Junction (I forget which way round). After some local gricing, they were re-recorded so both used the Welsh pronunciation. So hopefully rail visitors are being exposed to the correct pronunciation and absorbing it.
You will come across the occasional Welsh place name where the locals do not use the formal Welsh pronunciation. Unlike English places though outsiders and the media will always pronouce those names phonetically.
I believe that there are dialect differences between north and south. I don't know if Welsh language teaching in schools is ironing these out.
I believe that there are dialect differences between north and south. I don't know if Welsh language teaching in schools is ironing these out.
Western Sunset
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Why is Derby pronounced Darby (unless you're American)?
Y Ddraig Coch
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Dolwyddelan = Dol-oui-thelan Actual - Dol-with-elan
Betws-y-coed = Betoos-uh-coid Perfect
Blaenau = Blay-nigh close enough but mainly pronounced Blay-na
Dyffryn Ardudwy = Duffrin Ar-did-wee Actual - Duffrin Ar-did-wi (as in the wi part of with)
Llandanwg = Hlan-dan-oog - LL should not be said as an H, you need to practice LL its more like if you were Scottish and saying Och ai the way you say the ch in Och is similar to LL
Llandecwyn = Hlan-dec-ouin as above nothing like H
Betws-y-coed = Betoos-uh-coid Perfect
Blaenau = Blay-nigh close enough but mainly pronounced Blay-na
Dyffryn Ardudwy = Duffrin Ar-did-wee Actual - Duffrin Ar-did-wi (as in the wi part of with)
Llandanwg = Hlan-dan-oog - LL should not be said as an H, you need to practice LL its more like if you were Scottish and saying Och ai the way you say the ch in Och is similar to LL
Llandecwyn = Hlan-dec-ouin as above nothing like H
A thing very recently encountered by me: it surfaced on a trip to north-west England with two friends, involving among other places, the rather bleakly beautiful Forest of Bowland, in Lancashire / Yorkshire. If I've ever heard this name spoken aloud before this recent "bash", I don't remember it. One friend pronounced it "Boh-land" (as I would, without hesitation, have transliterated it); the other, throughout the trip, pronounced it "Bolland", which he said was the local pronunciation. (It's not clear on what authority he had that info -- he doesn't come from those parts, and I don't think he's ever lived thereabouts.) Any comments from those with relevant knowledge?
krus_aragon
Established Member
The variations you speak of are a combination of accent and dialect, and are the equivalent of formal/local English pronunciations of e.g. Staithwaite. To throw a Welsh example in, the village of Gaerwen is formally pronounced "Ga'eer-wenn" (Rhyming with mire-when), but locals will call it "Gayre-wann" (rhyming with payer-man).
Regional dialects (which go further than just North/South, but that's as detailed as Welsh for Adults courses go for examlle) aren't intentionally being ironed out, but there is natural development. In broadcast television and radio you'll hear a broad array of dialects, and this has been the case for decades. But some dialects are waning due to social influences. The Welsh accent native to Cardiff and the surrounding area being swamped by young Welsh speakers from across Wales moving to the city, and adding their accents to the melting pot. And as Welsh-medium education is becoming more popular in North-East Wales, there aren't always fluent Welsh-medium teachers living locally. I personally know many teachers who commute 40-50 miles along the North Wales coast to teach in such schools, and thus pupils will be less exposed to their local dialects.
As a trivial note, A friend told me yesterday that an academic paper he wrote on psychology involving bilingual individuals was slated by one of the peer reviewers for claiming to have used individuals from both North and South Wales. The reviewer asserted that the dialects of North and South Welsh are so distinct to be mutually incomprehensible, and thus they couldn't possibly have actually carried out this research! I need hardly point out that he was completely wrong in his belief.
lxfe_mxtterz
Member
I know how to pronounce Machynlleth. I just have trouble saying it. The same goes for Pwllheli. I can’t seem to say the ‘LL’ sound when it’s in the middle of a word. 
Although I’m fine when it comes to Llandudno, Llanfairfechan, etc. because the sound is at the beginning of the word. When it’s in the middle I can’t seem to say it, haha.
Although I’m fine when it comes to Llandudno, Llanfairfechan, etc. because the sound is at the beginning of the word. When it’s in the middle I can’t seem to say it, haha.
Spartacus
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It's probably an accent thing, my wife used to tell me off for pronouncing some Welsh places wrong when I knew that I wasn't, (some I was, and others I was on purpose, like Llandeilo) it was just that I was saying them in a West Yorkshire accent, not a West Wales one, and to say them how she expected to hear them would involve putting on a fake accent, which would probably be more Bradfordistan than Blaen-y-coed anyway 
adrock1976
Established Member
Porthmadog.
Is it "say what you see", or is it Port-maddock? Or are both correct?
I am aware of the different spellings of that placename, with me having seen Porthmadog and Portmadoc.
Is it "say what you see", or is it Port-maddock? Or are both correct?
I am aware of the different spellings of that placename, with me having seen Porthmadog and Portmadoc.
Bobdogs
Member
Sadly, no longer part of the railway network, a travel reporter on a well known national commercial sport radio station advised us of problems on the A470 at "Dolgeloo" Dolgellau (Dol geth lie).
krus_aragon
Established Member
There's a bit of history involved here: the town is named after the local landowner William Maddocks. In this sense, it's unsurprising that the original name was relatively Anglicised: Port Maddock or Portmadoc. That spelling and pronunciation are no longer used by the local council, and the residents who had long Cambricised the name, changing the 't' into a 'th', and the 'c' into a 'g'. (Note that the Welsh for a sea port is 'porth' or 'porthladd'.)
So yes, it's say what you see, unless you are working with historical documents or walk into a time machine.
DavidGrain
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Talking of Porthmadog (and I am old enough to call it Portmadoc because that was its name when I first went there), we have the continuing argument about the Ffestiniog Railway (trading name) being operated by the Festiniog Railway Company (statutory name) because it would take an Act of Parliament to change the name.
alistairlees
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That is correct
eastwestdivide
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Same reason that there's no "R" in Bath, and no "F" in logic when it comes to English spelling and pronunciation.
Two in Southampton (Sfamp'tun if you're local 
):
):- Bevois Valley is pronounced Beevus Valley, even though it is named after a frenchman.
- And nearby St Denys is pronounced by the locals as St Dennies (Deny's), despite it being an Old English spelling of Dennis.
I grew up in neighbouring Sidcup (my grandmother lived in Eltham) and most people called it 'Grinidge'. Eltham's another one: elle-tum, not elle-thum.
I was in Chester a few years ago and the woman who was announcing the trains was pronouncing Llandudno in the Welsh and (apparent) English pronunciations in the same announcement.
NorthernSpirit
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Both "Parrael" and "Heart of Wessex" could quote me on this, how is Trowbridge actually pronouced?
Is it pronouced, as in a row of buildings or its it pronouced as having a row with the missus? Since it seems (to me at least) that most Northerners are pronouning the town wrong.
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Similar happens with Sowerby Bridge, where its either pronouced as Sawerbee Bridge or Sowwer-bee Bridge. Going by what a local told me its the latter.
Is it pronouced, as in a row of buildings or its it pronouced as having a row with the missus? Since it seems (to me at least) that most Northerners are pronouning the town wrong.
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Similar happens with Sowerby Bridge, where its either pronouced as Sawerbee Bridge or Sowwer-bee Bridge. Going by what a local told me its the latter.
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Dhassell
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Tr - O - Bridge.
Basically Trow and Bridge are said separately.
NorthernSpirit
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Excellent. Thanks.
Most of the Forest of Bow-land is (?was) in the ecclesiastical Rural Deanery pronounced Boll-and. I've heard and used both, without being corrected, in other words. And it's the Trough of Bow-land....
Not that there is a railway station anyway (though there was a contractor's line).
Though there was an issue back in the 90s when the new long-time announcements at Leeds came in and called it Frizz-ing-hall
.PS I think they had problems with Slaith-waite too - that's a difficult one, because if you call it Sla-wit no-one outside West Yorkshire knows where you're talking about - far be it from me to suggest that would be intentional...
Going back to Lancashire, I presume Euxton has had a mention?
Merthyr Imp
Member
I know how to pronounce Machynlleth. I just have trouble saying it. The same goes for Pwllheli. I can’t seem to say the ‘LL’ sound when it’s in the middle of a word.
What forever confuses me is that the LLs next to the end of the names Caerphilly and Llanelli are pronounced differently.
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