TRTS buttons

[Domh245]

That is the driver is on as well as the guard(if provided), the doors are closed and when the signal is cleared the train will depart.
What shouldn't - and oft does - is the TRTS button is operated, the signal clears and then the signalman is told, "we haven't got a driver/guard/the doors won't close etc".

In most cases, isn't the signal clearing often the first part of the dispatch process, ie signal clears, doors close, train departs? It wouldn't make sense to close the doors and then push the TRTS in case the signal can't be cleared immediately. Obviously the lack of staff is inexcusable, but the door being unable to close isn't something that would be discovered until the dispatch process has begun.

 

[MarkyT]

More useful for an emergency, and probably easier to do, would be a button to operate flashing lights on the trackside, which would be visible to the driver even after passing the signal. These are (or used to be) provided on Tyne and Wear Metro.

There was something like that at Slough years ago in the bay for the Windsor branch trains (when they were slam door DMUs). Windsor was an early pioneer for that method of train working that shall not speak its name. I think the emergency platform button replaced the starting signal to red and activated a number of additional flashing red lights as well. I assume there was something similar at Windsor station as well.

 

[Sunset route]

There is a curtain south coast terminus that the the staff are notorious for TRTSing way to early, or not ensuring the train is fully crewed, or repeatedly keep pressing the button much to the annoyance of the signallers especially when the routes can't be set because of a conflicting move on the station throat or the trains are departing so close to each other that the previous train is still in section.

Then there are the staff that think the TRTS button is connected directly to the signal and even go as far as reporting a failure because even after repeated button pushes the signal hasn't cleared so their button or signal must of failed

Because of the amount of time they are used when the train is not ready we have nicknamed them T"A"RTS Train "Almost" Ready To Start.

 

[edwin_m]

In most cases, isn't the signal clearing often the first part of the dispatch process, ie signal clears, doors close, train departs? It wouldn't make sense to close the doors and then push the TRTS in case the signal can't be cleared immediately. Obviously the lack of staff is inexcusable, but the door being unable to close isn't something that would be discovered until the dispatch process has begun.

I guess TRTS should never be operated before any crew changes, PRM assistance and un/loading of catering trolleys are completed. It's a bit more difficult to say whether it needs to wait until all passengers have completed boarding/alighting, because that might slow things up but on the other hand there may be some problem on board that the platform people don't know about.

One useful feature on busy platforms would be to give the platform dispatcher a radio with a button to operate the TRTS (and ideally also CD/RA and a PA handset as on the Underground). This would mean not having to return to the position of the fixed button before they can operate it after completion of platform duties, and maybe make it less likely they will operate the button before starting those duties.

 

[MarkyT]

One useful feature on busy platforms would be to give the platform dispatcher a radio with a button to operate the TRTS (and ideally also CD/RA and a PA handset as on the Underground). This would mean not having to return to the position of the fixed button before they can operate it after completion of platform duties, and maybe make it less likely they will operate the button before starting those duties.

And that could have a cancel/emergency stop feature on it as well!

 

[tsr]

There is a curtain south coast terminus that the the staff are notorious ... repeatedly keep pressing the button much to the annoyance of the signallers especially when the routes can't be set because of a conflicting move on the station throat or the trains are departing so close to each other that the previous train is still in section.

Most of those staff have probably had numerous occasions when it hasn't been done quite right by the signallers, too, though. There is a certain station on the South Coast, possibly the same one we are thinking of, where there have been a number of instances in recent weeks where an early-running, local ECS movement trundling across the throat has delayed a couple of extremely busy AM peak services and caused congestion as far away as Stoats Nest and Windmill Bridge. Incorrect TRTS use spiking at certain times of day is almost certainly due to prolonged regulating issues and the sense that the throat is either empty or being misused. I know regulation of trains and prioritising stock moves is extremely hard - really, I do. And I'm not saying this is a constructive way of raising the issue. But premature or multiple TRTS activations are usually down to platform staff (or, though it is rare on your routes for them to do it, conductors) feeling aggrieved at the fact that specific trains get delayed with no visible reason. Personally, I tend to prefer a polite phone call, and try to tell people to only TRTS once in normal circumstances, but you can only do so much.

Then there are the staff that think the TRTS button is connected directly to the signal and even go as far as reporting a failure because even after repeated button pushes the signal hasn't cleared so their button or signal must of failed.

But then again there is a certain London terminal where there have been quite a few "real" TRTS issues recently, where trains have been delayed by 10+ minutes by it. Perhaps they've been reading too much into their emails...

I guess TRTS should never be operated before any crew changes, PRM assistance and un/loading of catering trolleys are completed. It's a bit more difficult to say whether it needs to wait until all passengers have completed boarding/alighting, because that might slow things up but on the other hand there may be some problem on board that the platform people don't know about.

The terms "TRTS" (signalling equipment) and "Ready to Start" (dispatch) should not be confused. TRTS confirms the train can move when a signal is cleared, as opposed to stating that the train is "Ready to Start" at the end of dispatch, which includes checking all passengers have safely boarded. You cannot formally commit to checking passengers have boarded safely and station work is complete until you get the signal cleared and route set correctly anyway, as this comes after the first check of the signal during dispatch.

 

[LAX54]

Officially they are to be used 2-3 minutes before departure. Saying that I'll jab at them if I'm after a quick turnaround.

Lets say the xx:40 arrival to form the xx:45 Norwich - Sheringham is pulling in at xx:43. I'll be pushing up for that before its stopped so once everyone is on and we are truly ready to start I already have the road and hopefully as close a right time start as possible.

Which is all very well, the Signaller clears to road as he has had TRS then for some reason, the train does not go for 5 or 6 mins, which then causes delay to another service !

 

[edwin_m]

The terms "TRTS" (signalling equipment) and "Ready to Start" (dispatch) should not be confused. TRTS confirms the train can move when a signal is cleared, as opposed to stating that the train is "Ready to Start" at the end of dispatch, which includes checking all passengers have safely boarded. You cannot formally commit to checking passengers have boarded safely and station work is complete until you get the signal cleared and route set correctly anyway, as this comes after the first check of the signal during dispatch.

I agree, but ideally it should be known that none of the things that can cause a delay is likely to do so before the TRTS is operated.

 

[TEW]

Poor practice if you ask me. I don't know how really busy London termini get on these days in times of disruption. Do they check all crew are on board before pressing the TRTS? I can just imagine what would happen if routes were set at Waterloo or Victoria and the train didn't leave promptly.

At Waterloo they definitely check both members of crew are present before operating TRTS. I was taught that you can't operate TRTS until all crew are present. As you say, a train can't be ready to start with no driver.

 

[Phil.]

In most cases, isn't the signal clearing often the first part of the dispatch process, ie signal clears, doors close, train departs? It wouldn't make sense to close the doors and then push the TRTS in case the signal can't be cleared immediately. Obviously the lack of staff is inexcusable, but the door being unable to close isn't something that would be discovered until the dispatch process has begun.

Train crew are ready in that they're happy that the train is in a fit state.
All passengers are on board.
Doors close.
Interlock proven.
Train is now Ready To Start.
Button/plunger operated.
Signal clears.
Ding-ding.

That's why the process is started - as advertised - up to one minute before departure. That's why and how the doors get closed thirty seconds before departure - some TOCs say more.

Operating the RTS button before all this simply negates the reason for providing a TRTS button in the first place.

 

[TEW]

Because they're either not explained properly or the person receiving the explanation hasn't properly understood platform staff get the idea the TRTS buttons are "call for the road" buttons.
They are there to indicate to a signalman in a 'box that may be thirty miles away and therefore has do idea what's happening at Little Dribbling that the Train is ReadyTo Start.
That is the driver is on as well as the guard(if provided), the doors are closed and when the signal is cleared the train will depart.
What shouldn't - and oft does - is the TRTS button is operated, the signal clears and then the signalman is told, "we haven't got a driver/guard/the doors won't close etc".

As others have pointed out, the first stage of the dispatch procedure is checking that the signal is displaying a proceed aspect. If you don't have a proceed aspect, you don't shut the doors. So TRTS has to be pressed before the doors are closed, and unfortunately sometimes the doors might fail to close.

 

[tsr]

Train crew are ready in that they're happy that the train is in a fit state.
All passengers are on board.
Doors close.
Interlock proven.
Train is now Ready To Start.
Button/plunger operated.
Signal clears.
Ding-ding.

That's why the process is started - as advertised - up to one minute before departure. That's why and how the doors get closed thirty seconds before departure - some TOCs say more.

Operating the RTS button before all this simply negates the reason for providing a TRTS button in the first place.

No.

You do not start the train dispatch procedure if the appropriate signal has not cleared to a proceed aspect for the correct route [excepting occasions when you are authorised to pass it at danger].

 

[transmanche]

You do not start the train dispatch procedure if the appropriate signal has not cleared to a proceed aspect for the correct route.

Perhaps the TRTS controls should be renamed to TRTSDP (Train Ready To Start Dispatch Procedure) in order to avoid any confusion.

 

[Bromley boy]

In most cases, isn't the signal clearing often the first part of the dispatch process, ie signal clears, doors close, train departs? It wouldn't make sense to close the doors and then push the TRTS in case the signal can't be cleared immediately. Obviously the lack of staff is inexcusable, but the door being unable to close isn't something that would be discovered until the dispatch process has begun.

Train crew are ready in that they're happy that the train is in a fit state.
All passengers are on board.
Doors close.
Interlock proven.
Train is now Ready To Start.
Button/plunger operated.
Signal clears.
Ding-ding.

That's why the process is started - as advertised - up to one minute before departure. That's why and how the doors get closed thirty seconds before departure - some TOCs say more.

Operating the RTS button before all this simply negates the reason for providing a TRTS button in the first place.

Unless I've misunderstood, this would require the platform staff to give the driver CD against a red signal. That is definitely not how it works at any of the London terminals my TOC operates from. Drivers would certainly refuse to close the doors upon receiving a CD indication against a red.

Supposing the signal didn't come off when the plunger was operated? This would lead to the bizarre situation of the train standing in the platform with doors closed, unable to depart possibly for several minutes, with no further passengers able to board.

The platform staff will often plunge the train five minutes or more before departure, usually when they've positively confirmed it has a driver (often before the driver has even got into the cab!). The next thing that MUST happen is for the starting signal to come off, before the platform staff commence the dispatch process.

If the signal comes off before booked departure, the platform staff begin the dispatch process around 40 seconds before departure. RA is usually given 10-15 seconds before departure time.

 

[theageofthetra]

Out of interest is TRTS equipment in sidings now obsolete with GSMR & will it be fitted at any new sites?

Procedure upon leaving Gillingham reception road since resignalling is to SG (a button used to annoy signallers when held at a signal at danger) on the the GSMR cab radio to let the signaller know you are ready. What are signallers thoughts on this as a way forward and is TRTS now obsolete ?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Could GSM-R be used to replace TRTS buttons? The driver could call the signaller to confirm that they're train is ready to start.

Once a signaller has entered a route into their panel, provided there's no conflicting routes, typically how long does the signalling system take to change the relevant points and signals and confirm to the signaller that the route has been successfully set?

 

[ComUtoR]

Unless I've misunderstood, this would require the platform staff to give the driver CD against a red signal. That is definitely not how it works at any of the London terminals my TOC operates from. Drivers would certainly refuse to close the doors upon receiving a CD indication against a red.

Doesn't the fact that it is totally possible to get the DC whilst the signal is showing red suggest that it would be acceptable. I can think of a couple of circumstances where you would almost require it.

A unit that I drive has an unusual door issue that would require CD on a red.

In passenger service I'd 100% agree that I would not readily accept a CD on a red unless instructed. ECS however.....

Could GSM-R be used to replace TRTS buttons? The driver could call the signaller to confirm that they're train is ready to start.

Even with the CSR you didn't need to TRTS. There was a thread a whole back regarding when the Signaller sets the road and it was discussed in more detail about the TRTS/Plungers. GSM-R didn't really change much in that sense.

 

[LowLevel]

ECS is a different thing really because you're kicking out and certainly where we are, are meant to recheck it after the doors are locked. Shutting the doors per se isn't as much of a part of the actual dispatch procedure as making sure you have an empty train stood which may or may not need to depart somewhere - either the platform staff or the guard depending on where lock the doors up on ECS trains here.

On the other hand, we've now been told that closing your doors on a passenger train at a red signal in anticipation of a proceed won't be tolerated, quite rightly, as it breaches the rule book.

 

[edwin_m]

Could GSM-R be used to replace TRTS buttons? The driver could call the signaller to confirm that they're train is ready to start.

Once a signaller has entered a route into their panel, provided there's no conflicting routes, typically how long does the signalling system take to change the relevant points and signals and confirm to the signaller that the route has been successfully set?

The message to the signaller can be conveyed by other means, even voice radio. However the signaller may be doing something else at the time, or it may be an automatic route setting system instead. I think TRTS will continue to be provided at stations where delays are likely (eg frequent crew changes) and/or there are busy junctions at the platform ends which make it necessary to delay setting the route until the train is ready.

The time to set a route is a few seconds, depending on whether any points need to be swung and on the speed of operation of the interlocking, trackside communication and points machines.

 

[nom de guerre]

Could GSM-R be used to replace TRTS buttons? The driver could call the signaller to confirm that they're train is ready to start.

We use the 'SG' facility on GSM-R (sending a 'Standing at Signal' text message) as a sort of pseudo-TRTS at a couple of locations (eg a set of depot reception roads which, historically, were equipped with TRTS, but now no longer have it).

Drivers of outbound ECS moves are told that we will not set the route for them until they have 'SG-ed'. If they forget to do so and this results in delays, the minutes are attributed to the TOC concerned.

 

[MarkyT]

The time to set a route is a few seconds, depending on whether any points need to be swung and on the speed of operation of the interlocking, trackside communication and points machines.

Contrast with the time to cancel a route and free the junctions if the train turns out not to be ready after all, which can be as much as 240 seconds for the longest approach locking timers, although is typically 60 seconds at terminals.

It's a good idea to pass the 'train ready' notification through the cab radio system as it 'knows' about the train and it's current berth position, and the indication is stored until actioned by the signaller. The only downside is that the driver initiating the notification wouldn't know for sure whether the guard, if there was one, was actually ready to do the subsequent dispatch. That's similar to conventional TRTS where the guard doesn't know 100% if the driver is ready, but a guard is probably more likely to be distracted legitimately by passenger issues.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Contrast with the time to cancel a route and free the junctions if the train turns out not to be ready after all, which can be as much as 240 seconds for the longest approach locking timers, although is typically 60 seconds at terminals.

It's a good idea to pass the 'train ready' notification through the cab radio system as it 'knows' about the train and it's current berth position, and the indication is stored until actioned by the signaller. The only downside is that the driver initiating the notification wouldn't know for sure whether the guard, if there was one, was actually ready to do the subsequent dispatch. That's similar to conventional TRTS where the guard doesn't know 100% if the driver is ready, but a guard is probably more likely to be distracted legitimately by passenger issues.

Could a buzzer code be introduced for the guard to signal to the driver that they're ready to start the dispatch procedure?

 

[Bromley boy]

Doesn't the fact that it is totally possible to get the DC whilst the signal is showing red suggest that it would be acceptable. I can think of a couple of circumstances where you would almost require it.

A unit that I drive has an unusual door issue that would require CD on a red.

In passenger service I'd 100% agree that I would not readily accept a CD on a red unless instructed. ECS however.....

I was thinking about being in passenger service. I can't really think of a situation where it would be acceptable or desirable to be CD'd on a red with passengers on board.

It is different with ECS. Im aware of some units where you have to press "door close" to get interlock, even where doors have been closed by the platform staff and the release taken off. I've been told you technically require CD before you hit "door close" on these. I guess there's no reason this couldn't be given on a red.

In practice the platform staff seem to skip CD and give RA immediately when the signal comes off, though.

 

[leomartin125]

I don't think at any point in the near future we will get rid of TSTR. As I've learnt recently, TSTR is a fundamental part of station operations and dispatch and removing the role of a dispatcher on major services means safety could be at risk as if the train is DO, there is nobody aware of potential hazards as the train departs... which is why dispatchers have to watch the train leave the ENTIRE platform before returning to duty once dispatching a train. Fundamentally, the railway needs TSTR and the communication between platform staff, and the onboard train crew as well as the signaller. It's this that makes dispatching as safe as it is and needs to be in this era of potential hazards.

 

[FGW_DID]

I don't think at any point in the near future we will get rid of TSTR. As I've learnt recently, TSTR is a fundamental part of station operations and dispatch and removing the role of a dispatcher on major services means safety could be at risk as if the train is DO, there is nobody aware of potential hazards as the train departs... which is why dispatchers have to watch the train leave the ENTIRE platform before returning to duty once dispatching a train. Fundamentally, the railway needs TSTR and the communication between platform staff, and the onboard train crew as well as the signaller. It's this that makes dispatching as safe as it is and needs to be in this era of potential hazards.

You do realise that DOO services get dispatched as all other services. I'm talking Oxford & Reading, so it doesn't matter if it's just the driver or plus a guard, the dispatcher still has to operate the TRTS, the CD & RA buttons.

Didcot on the other hand, there are TRTS buttons but are obsolete, DOO (I.e the turbos) dispatch themselves and the station staff deal with the HST & 180 stock.

TRTS is "Train Ready to Start", that's it. It tells the signaller exactly that. It is supplementary to the dispatch procedure, not all stations are equipped.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

TRTS is "Train Ready to Start", that's it. It tells the signaller exactly that. It is supplementary to the dispatch procedure, not all stations are equipped.

This is the fundamental fact which seems to be misunderstood by some contributors to this discussion. TRTS happens before the formal dispatch process starts. RA is the final communication from the platform in the process itself. I'll repeat a key phrase which came up during training time and time again: "come to a clear understanding with colleagues". TRTS is just one of the aids in doing just that.

 

[Phil.]

This is the fundamental fact which seems to be misunderstood by some contributors to this discussion. TRTS happens before the formal dispatch process starts. RA is the final communication from the platform in the process itself. I'll repeat a key phrase which came up during training time and time again: "come to a clear understanding with colleagues". TRTS is just one of the aids in doing just that.

I'm glad that you mentioned, "come to a clear understanding".
That's what a TRTS button is for. The dispatcher and the signalman have come to a clear understanding. The Train is ready To Start. No last second problems, no nothing to delay the train's starting. That's why CD buttons are not interlocked with signals but RA buttons are. The TRTS button has - as I have mentioned before - become a call for the road button and that's wrong and not what it's there for.
I'm not going to say anything else because it is obvious that whoever is doing the instructing nowadays doesn't understand the principle of why they were installed in the first place.

 

[LowLevel]

It's nothing to do with the instructor. It's a rulebook requirement that you may not close your doors on a red signal to reduce the risk of a Start Against Signal SPAD. Module SS1 3.4 was the classic reference, not got my current rulebook to hand to check it.

Regardless of what you think or how the equipment is set up, RSSB say NO.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I'm glad that you mentioned, "come to a clear understanding".

Well it's obvious that your understanding bears no relation to the operation of passenger trains at stations! I suspect you are thinking of departures of ecs from sidings where tracks may not be track-circuited and departing trains initially pull up to a Stop Board, operate a TRTS, and authority to pass the board being given by the clearing of the "outlet" signal so in those circumstances a signaller would rightly expect that a TRTS activation means that the train is ready to move immediately that the signal clears.

That's what a TRTS button is for. The dispatcher and the signalman have come to a clear understanding. The Train is ready To Start. No last second problems, no nothing to delay the train's starting. That's why CD buttons are not interlocked with signals but RA buttons are. The TRTS button has - as I have mentioned before - become a call for the road button and that's wrong and not what it's there for.

At passenger stations that's exactly what it's there for! It becomes essential during periods of disruption as a way of letting a remote signaller know which train is going next without having to rely continually on verbal communication. And of course CD buttons are not interlocked with signals, they don't have any role in controlling the actual movement of trains. Unlike a RA button.

I'm not going to say anything else because it is obvious that whoever is doing the instructing nowadays doesn't understand the principle of why they were installed in the first place.

Do ask your training function about all this, you may be surprised.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

so is the procedure meant to be something like?:

1. Platform staff presss the TRTS button
2. Signaller sets the route and gives a "proceed" aspect
3. Guard or driver (DOO) does the door close procedure
4. If doors safely shut the platform staff press whatever button to give the RA
5. The train departs