TW5 S6 Issue 9 changes

[Intermodal]

The rules regarding doors out of use in TW5 S6 have changed, coming into force on Saturday.

Previously the rules were this:

The new rules are as follows:

Am I interpreting this correctly that there is now no requirement for authorisation should the leading door of a vehicle be locked out of use as long as it is not followed by another door out of use on the same side of the train?

For example on a standard 2 coach multiple unit, with 4 doors each side and no cab doors, previously authorisation would be required to lock off the leading or trailing doors on either side. As far as I can tell this is no longer the case as it only states that "Door closest to the end of a vehicle with no passenger access to another vehicle" must be out of use - it doesn't say that the passenger access must be by the door - so presumably it only applies to one coach units or locked off coaches.

If anyone can share their view I would be interested to read it.

 

[30907]

The rules regarding doors out of use in TW5 S6 have changed, coming into force on Saturday.

Previously the rules were this:

The new rules are as follows:

Am I interpreting this correctly that there is now no requirement for authorisation should the leading door of a vehicle be locked out of use as long as it is not followed by another door out of use on the same side of the train?

For example on a standard 2 coach multiple unit, with 4 doors each side and no cab doors, previously authorisation would be required to lock off the leading or trailing doors on either side. As far as I can tell this is no longer the case as it only states that "Door closest to the end of a vehicle with no passenger access to another vehicle" must be out of use - it doesn't say that the passenger access must be by the door - so presumably it only applies to one coach units or locked off coaches.

If anyone can share their view I would be interested to read it.

I am not staff, but I read the 2nd and 3rd entries as applying to the first or last car of any train OR unit without inter-unit gangway.

 

[Intermodal]

I am not staff, but I read the 2nd and 3rd entries as applying to the first or last car of any train OR unit without inter-unit gangway.

That's my point exactly.

I think you can read it like that.

I also think you can read "with no passenger access to adjecent vehicle" as meaning any vehicle coupled via gangway to another, regardless of coupling location (e.g. other end of vehicle). It seems open to interpretation to me, hence the thread. I'm struggling to decide what it means, honestly!

 

[Tomnick]

My interpretation, and understanding of the principle behind the rule, is that it’s not referring to a vehicle as a whole with no passenger access to another vehicle, but rather the specific end of that vehicle - so, in the case of the leading door on the leading vehicle on a two-car unit becoming defective, the leading vehicle does indeed have to be locked out of use.

 

[Johncleesefan]

Still need to check my dec changes

Does it not come with the helpful colour coded chart like last time (with the coaches highlight when they could or couldn’t stay in service)

 

[Jonfun]

I seem to recall it was only relatively recently we relaxed these rules too. Keeps everyone on their toes, I suppose.

 

[superhands]

Some of the new EMU's and I think DMU's can have their doors lock out mechanically (using a carriage key) or electronically via the trains computer (tms) if you lock out the doors via the computer which is now the perferred method the doors can still be open in an emergency situation

 

[Intermodal]

Still need to check my dec changes

Does it not come with the helpful colour coded chart like last time (with the coaches highlight when they could or couldn’t stay in service)

Nope - you only get the table now (complete with misspelling of emergency).

 

[Johncleesefan]

Nope - you only get the table now (complete with misspelling of emergency).

Haha, most importantly then, does the module stay have “plain English” written on the back of the book?

 

[Intermodal]

Haha, most importantly then, does the module stay have “plain English” written on the back of the book?

It's so simple even a driver can read it!

 

[Gooner18]

Does the term “ vehicle “ apply to the complete train I.e an 8 car set up , or ;

The term vehicle applies just to one car ?

 

[CC 72100]

Haha, most importantly then, does the module stay have “plain English” written on the back of the book?

This.

 

[Intermodal]

Does the term “ vehicle “ apply to the complete train I.e an 8 car set up , or ;

The term vehicle applies just to one car ?

Vehicle applies to one coach or wagon.

 

[387star]

On what traction can a door be opened by the egress if locked out of use?

 

[387star]

Some of the new EMU's and I think DMU's can have their doors lock out mechanically (using a carriage key) or electronically via the trains computer (tms) if you lock out the doors via the computer which is now the perferred method the doors can still be open in an emergency situation

Ah ok 700s must be like that

 

[387star]

Appears if you CAN'T egress the out of use door the regs have been tightened again as previously with permission you could run with two consecutive doors out of use (provided the door in adjacent coach was in use) as well as a leading trailing door out of use

 

[superhands]

387 doors can be lock on by the tms I think it would include the who electrostar range and may 172.
i would think the siemans trains should be able to do it as well

 

[Gooner18]

So if I am reading that correctly , if two adjacent doors in the same carriage are inop , you can’t continue , or let the train go into service unless the door can be opened in an emergency or having received authority.

If the door in Question is an emergency door at the END of the vehicle ( does this part now cover the front and rear, or just the rear ?) with no access available to no other carriage then again , train is placed out of action unless authority is received, or;

If passengers have access to another carriages you can continue , if you can lock off that part of the carriage only allowing passengers to travel in the part with an operating door? Again only if it can be opened in an emergency and with authority?

The other two points for wheel chair and no other emergency exits are pretty self explanatory.

Any other door , I.e a middle carriage with one door out of action and with access to other carriages you can carry on without authority, as long as you can lock it , out a sign on the door saying it’s out of action etc.

However , I take it is game over in any of the above situations if any in op door can’t be opened in an emergency situation, or have I got it all completely wrong lol ?

 

[Johncleesefan]

Ahh read my amendments now in time for tomorrow. Luckily not much of the door changes are relevant to me as I drive old trains where locking a door out renders the egress useless too.

 

[Johncleesefan]

So if I am reading that correctly , if two adjacent doors in the same carriage are inop , you can’t continue , or let the train go into service unless the door can be opened in an emergency or having received authority.

If the door in Question is an emergency door at the END of the vehicle ( does this part now cover the front and rear, or just the rear ?) with no access available to no other carriage then again , train is placed out of action unless authority is received, or;

If passengers have access to another carriages you can continue , if you can lock off that part of the carriage only allowing passengers to travel in the part with an operating door? Again only if it can be opened in an emergency and with authority?

The other two points for wheel chair and no other emergency exits are pretty self explanatory.

Any other door , I.e a middle carriage with one door out of action and with access to other carriages you can carry on without authority, as long as you can lock it , out a sign on the door saying it’s out of action etc.

However , I take it is game over in any of the above situations if any in op door can’t be opened in an emergency situation, or have I got it all completely wrong lol ?

I think your right. That’s certainly the way I read it. The colour charts in last years rule book were so much more helpful I don’t know why they didn’t do them again. Good old railway “except when except when....”

 

[Westcoast-ting]

I think your right. That’s certainly the way I read it. The colour charts in last years rule book were so much more helpful I don’t know why they didn’t do them again. Good old railway “except when except when....”

I read it as if 2 doors are out of use on the same side of one vehicle then the vehicle can only be used as a walk through if the doors don’t open once made out of use

 

[Intermodal]

Clearly all the different interpretations of these rules being a thing is an issue...

 

[Gooner18]

I read it as if 2 doors are out of use on the same side of one vehicle then the vehicle can only be used as a walk through if the doors don’t open once made out of use

See I read that would only be the case if you can’t open the doors in an emergency, or you don’t get authority to place, or to continue the train into service.

 

[Socanxdis]

btw all of that can be overridden by control authorising you to continue. so really all these rules are just for legal purposes.

 

[Gooner18]

btw all of that can be overridden by control authorising you to continue. so really all these rules are just for legal purposes.

Only if the door can be opened in an emergency, or at least that’s how I see it

 

[Intermodal]

Only if the door can be opened in an emergency, or at least that’s how I see it

I agree with your post and think that is the only clear cut part of the whole thing, control definitely can't authorise you otherwise, except in exceptional circumstances perhaps.

 

[Gooner18]

I agree with your post and think that is the only clear cut part of the whole thing, control definitely can't authorise you otherwise, except in exceptional circumstances perhaps.

It’s like the MOT Testing manual , everything is in black and white , no grey areas ...... yeh right lol

 

[Jonfun]

There really shouldn't be any misinterpretation of it. The old colour coded chart was good, but the table is quite clear.

If your doors can be released via egress when locked out, then if your control gives you permission, you do not have to lock vehicles out in any circumstances.

If your doors are fully locked out (ie the egress doesn't overcome the locking) then you have to take action in the following cases:

Two adjacent doors on the same side of the train - lock the applicable vehicle, or vehicles (if the adjacent doors are on adjacent carriages).
End door where there is no access to an adjacent carriage (including any doors designated as emergency exits, eg TGS on a HST) - lock out the vehicle, unless you can lock out *part* of the vehicle (eg 1/3 2/3 doors where you could lock out 2/3rds of the coach and leave the first third with a working door).
If the defective door is the *only* door on one side of a vehicle - lock out the vehicle.
If the defective door is access for wheelchair passengers you can continue with Control's authority.
Any other door and you can work normally.

A flowchart would be useful for this, I think.

Also, there is no concept of a "walk-through" coach in the new rules.

 

[Bigfoot]

Also, there is no concept of a "walk-through" coach in the new rules.

There is. That's why they have introduced the two consecutive doors on the same side.

 

[Tomnick]

There is. That's why they have introduced the two consecutive doors on the same side.

Previously you could have both doors on a vehicle locked out and still continue normally though, as long as the nearest door on the vehicle on each side is available (so you couldn't do anything other than walk through that vehicle to the next).

Agree with others above, of course - Control can authorise you to continue where the rule states that they can, but they can't just go overriding what the Rule Book says.