Uber taxis

[bb21]

If price-surge is properly regulated, and they pay their taxes, then I will be happy for Uber to exist.

 

[richardio123]

The petition in question https://action.uber.org/tfl/

They've got 100,000 signatures almost

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is a new, disruptive, business model.

The proposed legislation is like asking car owners to have a man with red flag walking in front of them.

It serves no purpose other than to protect the Black Cabs and some private hire operators. Please explain how the rules would benefit the consumer.

It wouldn't.

Regulation is needed to ensure the standard of driving and honesty (e.g. DBS check) of taxi and private hire drivers, and that they can get you to your specified destination (be that the Knowledge or by sat-nav) as well as accessibility of the service (not in my view every vehicle provided an accessible vehicle is always readily available and at the same price as a regular car). Regulation should not, in my view, control *how* they do this, and it should indeed be the same for black cabs as private hire.

Regulation is not needed to control a method of operation, and on this I agree with Uber.

As for the shared cars/"jitney" facility, I've long thought UK law doesn't really provide a framework for this - but in my view it very much should. Why not? Surely a taxi is better shared for environmental benefit?

I also don't have a massive problem with surge pricing once one understands what it is for and how it works. It's yield management, just like on airlines and trains, just in a different way because people don't often pre-book taxis weeks ahead.

 

[deltic]

It wouldn't.

Regulation is needed to ensure the standard of driving and honesty (e.g. DBS check) of taxi and private hire drivers, and that they can get you to your specified destination (be that the Knowledge or by sat-nav) as well as accessibility of the service (not in my view every vehicle provided an accessible vehicle is always readily available and at the same price as a regular car). Regulation should not, in my view, control *how* they do this, and it should indeed be the same for black cabs as private hire.

Regulation is not needed to control a method of operation, and on this I agree with Uber.

As for the shared cars/"jitney" facility, I've long thought UK law doesn't really provide a framework for this - but in my view it very much should. Why not? Surely a taxi is better shared for environmental benefit?

I also don't have a massive problem with surge pricing once one understands what it is for and how it works. It's yield management, just like on airlines and trains, just in a different way because people don't often pre-book taxis weeks ahead.

Are there still taxi sharing stands at London main line stations or have they been dropped?

 

[bb21]

I also don't have a massive problem with surge pricing once one understands what it is for and how it works. It's yield management, just like on airlines and trains, just in a different way because people don't often pre-book taxis weeks ahead.

I for one am not comfortable with the concept, as surge pricing will inevitably hit when there is little other choice, hence exacerbating what is often already a difficult situation for transportation, most likely with all other modes at a standstill. There should imo be a cap on the prices they are allowed to charge, variable downwards but not above the ceiling.

I also have concerns with unfair competition, and what might follow should normal taxis be driven out of the market.

 

[jon0844]

Uber is gathering very useful logistical data apparently and one day hopes to have driverless vehicles in use.

It's not really a business that cares that much for the drivers and wouldn't want to be made to spend too much money doing proper checks, providing insurance and so on.

 

[PermitToTravel]

It's my understanding that outside London private hire fares (incl. Uber surge pricing) must not exceed the local hackney carriage fare limits. I don't know how or whether this applies in London

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are there still taxi sharing stands at London main line stations or have they been dropped?

I think there are.
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It's my understanding that outside London private hire fares (incl. Uber surge pricing) must not exceed the local hackney carriage fare limits. I don't know how or whether this applies in London

How does that fit with things like the premium services which are higher quality than a Hackney carriage and as such are justified in charging more?
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Uber is gathering very useful logistical data apparently and one day hopes to have driverless vehicles in use.

I'm sure it does. Every business seeks to cut its costs; that isn't something that we should be surprised or horrified about in and of itself.

It's not really a business that cares that much for the drivers and wouldn't want to be made to spend too much money doing proper checks, providing insurance and so on.

There, and there alone, is where regulation needs to deal with things. Not in operational matters, and certainly not to protect an old-fashioned method of operation (the Hackney carriage) against a modern one that offers convenience improvements for the passenger.

 

[telstarbox]

I think it's the same as a minicab in that you 'agree' a fare upfront via the app and therefore the hackney carriage rates don't apply. When the surge pricing applies you also have to type in the fare multiplier to confirm it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it's the same as a minicab in that you 'agree' a fare upfront via the app and therefore the hackney carriage rates don't apply. When the surge pricing applies you also have to type in the fare multiplier to confirm it.

I must admit that knowing the fare in advance and being able to pay by credit/debit cards without any need for negotiation or faffing with change are the "killer app" as far as I'm concerned. A local minicab operator (not Uber) has an app that does basically the same thing, and as a result I have switched completely from another one I used to use a lot.

 

[bb21]

Regardless of the fact that fares are agreed prior to the journey commencing, as is the case with most minicab firms, I strongly object passengers being held to ransom because they had little choice otherwise - free market principles in its ugliest form - as was the case earlier in the year.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Regardless of the fact that fares are agreed prior to the journey commencing, as is the case with most minicab firms, I strongly object passengers being held to ransom because they had little choice otherwise - free market principles in its ugliest form - as was the case earlier in the year.

That surely is no different to TOCs creaming it in on Anytime fares, particularly into London where there is similarly no realistic choice.

You could I suppose implement the same thing by charging slightly extra at normal times and then increasing the amount paid to drivers at busy times (it's intended to encourage them out). But you'd still be paying more overall, just in a different way!

 

[bb21]

Don't get me started on those ridiculous Anytime fares. :mad:

There should be a fair price charged to cover these situations, but I suppose if they did that they would lose their competitive edge over the regular cabs pricewise.
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What I also do not understand is why drivers need to be paid more to be "encouraged" to come out. Do their costs increase when LU staff go on strike? Sounds to me like everyman for himself trying to profit as much as he could from other people's miseries, which is another reason why I find this operation dodgy on many levels.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It serves no purpose other than to protect the Black Cabs and some private hire operators. Please explain how the rules would benefit the consumer.

Putting Uber out of business would benefit everyone in London.

There have been repeated issues with Uber drivers taking "interesting" routes to fleece passengers, especially vulnerable passengers, and- unlike black cabs- there is nowhere to take complaints to.

I think it's the same as a minicab in that you 'agree' a fare upfront via the app and therefore the hackney carriage rates don't apply. When the surge pricing applies you also have to type in the fare multiplier to confirm it.

That is a recent change, following on from recent issues with Uber's surge pricing and fabricated taxi locations on their app. They did it because they were forced to. Before then they hid the surge pricing away, catching people out.

The issue is that you do not agree a fare upfront with Uber, you agree to be bound by their metering structure. And there is no transparency on that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What I also do not understand is why drivers need to be paid more to be "encouraged" to come out.

The same reason it's common to pay more than the base rate for working optional Sundays or overtime?

Do their costs increase when LU staff go on strike? Sounds to me like everyman for himself trying to profit as much as he could from other people's miseries, which is another reason why I find this operation dodgy on many levels.

High demand isn't necessarily caused by anyone's misery. It's more likely to be caused by things like sporting events and the likes. Again, the same as the railway - busy day, no Advances.

 

[bb21]

The same reason it's common to pay more than the base rate for working optional Sundays or overtime?

If that were the reason, why are all Uber drivers charging rocketing prices when surge-pricing applies and not just those doing overtime?

High demand isn't necessarily caused by anyone's misery. It's more likely to be caused by things like sporting events and the likes. Again, the same as the railway - busy day, no Advances.

True, but how do you excuse such behaviour when LU staff went on strike earlier this year? I can't think of another way of describing it apart from "profiting from people's miseries".

I will get shot for saying this but Advance fares are discount rates. I consider the lowest walk-on fare to be the benchmark rate. They do not get jacked up because of popular demand. Uber also offer discount rates at quieter times but jack up their prices when they find an opportunity.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Uber has an algorithm that matches supply and demand. When demand raises above the number of drivers available to satisfy demand quickly, surge pricing kicks in. This has two effects:

• It reduces the demand on the Uber system as some people will not pay the requested price to travel
• It encourages more drivers to hit the road as they will get enhanced earnings during the surges, helping to satisfy the demand

Uber drivers work when they want with no set hours. Uber can't do a "ring round" and ask people to come in to work. They get more people on the road by paying a premium.

There's nothing sinister or profiteering - it's simple economics of supply and demand. Low supply, high demand = higher prices.

 

[bb21]

Yes, I know it is all down to the free market principle of supply and demand, and I don't agree with their practice for the reasons I gave above.
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We are running the risk of an unregulated business pricewise demolishing an established industry which provides a means of transportation, a crucial one in certain circumstances. They should be regulated in their pricing imo.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I must admit that knowing the fare in advance and being able to pay by credit/debit cards without any need for negotiation or faffing with change are the "killer app" as far as I'm concerned. A local minicab operator (not Uber) has an app that does basically the same thing, and as a result I have switched completely from another one I used to use a lot.

Pretty much this.
There are three reasons people use Uber:
1 - Knowing roughly what the fare will be beforehand
2 - Charged to your card, no faffing about with paying before / during / after the journey.
3 - It is very easy to book journey and know roughly how long it will be before the car gets to your location.

If any other taxi company can replicate those 3 points, then they will succeed! The only point that Uber wins on is brand recognition / already having the app. Why search for a different taxi company and download the app and sign up for an account when you already have Uber set up?

 

[bb21]

Pretty much this.
There are three reasons people use Uber:
1 - Knowing roughly what the fare will be beforehand
2 - Charged to your card, no faffing about with paying before / during / after the journey.
3 - It is very easy to book journey and know roughly how long it will be before the car gets to your location.

If any other taxi company can replicate those 3 points, then they will succeed! The only point that Uber wins on is brand recognition / already having the app. Why search for a different taxi company and download the app and sign up for an account when you already have Uber set up?

That's all fine. I have no beef with them over this and think they have done very well on the innovation front.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If that were the reason, why are all Uber drivers charging rocketing prices when surge-pricing applies and not just those doing overtime?

Because there is no concept of "overtime" - the drivers are self-employed.

True, but how do you excuse such behaviour when LU staff went on strike earlier this year? I can't think of another way of describing it apart from "profiting from people's miseries".

I see your point, but I also see Uber's side of the debate.

I will get shot for saying this but Advance fares are discount rates. I consider the lowest walk-on fare to be the benchmark rate. They do not get jacked up because of popular demand. Uber also offer discount rates at quieter times but jack up their prices when they find an opportunity.

What matters to the passenger generally is not what the "benchmark rate" is (though I do largely see it the same way as an experienced passenger who almost always uses walk-ups by preference). What matters to most passengers is what it costs to make the journey they want. I'm betting with the rugby at MK this evening there won't have been many Advances knocking around, and most will be on walk-ups, possibly Anytimes due to the timing of the match.

Or look at how I was getting LTN-GVA-LTN on easyJet a few years ago when I was weekly commuting for around £50 return, then when it was half-term week it went well over £200.

It's the same idea, just a different implementation relating to a trade where booking in advance (airport runs aside) is near enough unknown and not likely to be practical.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If any other taxi company can replicate those 3 points, then they will succeed! The only point that Uber wins on is brand recognition / already having the app. Why search for a different taxi company and download the app and sign up for an account when you already have Uber set up?

Indeed, and it is those elements provided by a local taxi firm that made me choose them for most taxi journeys now.

To me, the most important thing is card payment - cash is so awkward and archaic, and there's always the pressure to round up (I don't tip the bus driver, why should I tip a taxi driver when all he's done is his job[1]?), as well as it being a relatively high cost service - I simply don't carry that much cash these days because near enough every business I deal with takes cards. Second comes the app-based booking. But to me that style of service is simply more modern and more convenient. And the feedback function encourages good behaviour from drivers.

[1] I have no issues with tipping for genuinely exceptional service, for instance if I took a particularly awkward group to a restaurant and the staff attended well to their requests despite them being out of the ordinary for some reason. But tipping as a matter of course annoys me. Service is not optional, so it should be included in the specified price - always - and a tip should be on top if you genuinely feel service has been exceptional.

 

[bb21]

It would be daft for me to say that I don't see Uber's reasoning for their pricing model, but their priority will always be to maximise profit, rather than setting a fair price for the passengers that reflect on the cost of providing the service plus a fair margin for profit. This is all fine in normal circumstances because the market should self-regulate where competitions exist, but in circumstances where it is heavily skewed to the advantage of Uber, people are essentially left to Uber's mercy, because they have to get places and they have no other choice (a bit like peak time rail travel if you like). This bothers me especially if their pricing structure is driving many cabbies out of making a living because they cannot compete on price, amongst other things, in normal circumstances, as has happened in many places around the world. This is where regulation is required, to ensure a fair price whatever the circumstance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This bothers me especially if their pricing structure is driving many cabbies out of making a living because they cannot compete on price, amongst other things, in normal circumstances, as has happened in many places around the world.

I don't like to see anyone out of work more than anyone else does, but if Uber makes the black cab less popular, that's just the passenger speaking, isn't it?

The reason for me wanting to use an Uber-like service (Uber themselves do not serve MK, the company offering the service is Speedline) has little to do with it being cheaper (to me, taxi travel just comes under "expensive" and it is only used when proper public transport is not a viable option), and everything to do with the convenience factors noted above. So where's TfL and their app allowing all black cabs to be booked and paid for and reviewed in the same way but at the existing tariff?

I think I'd choose the TfL service if it were there, to be honest - you can be sure it will be run to the benefit of passengers and not solely for profit.
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IOW, compete (on convenience, and sell why the black cab is worth the extra) or die.

 

[Tetchytyke]

So where's TfL and their app allowing all black cabs to be booked and paid for and reviewed in the same way but at the existing tariff?

There are apps, such as Hailo, which do just that.

My issue with Uber is that they're trying to have their cake and eat it. They're trying to pretend that they are Private Hire when it comes to regulation but that they're a Hackney Carriage when it comes to metering.

If they want to be another Private Hire firm then they can behave like a Private Hire firm

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are apps, such as Hailo, which do just that.

True, but they don't cover the entire TfL taxi system. One app for all taxis would make the service much more convenient.

My issue with Uber is that they're trying to have their cake and eat it. They're trying to pretend that they are Private Hire when it comes to regulation but that they're a Hackney Carriage when it comes to metering.

If they want to be another Private Hire firm then they can behave like a Private Hire firm

That's a curiously London distinction, and not one I feel really has any value[1]. Private hire cars use a meter in a number of Council areas - it seems to be to Council discretion whether to allow that or not.

[1] Though I think it would actually be a good selling point for a private hire company to do a simple zonal fare structure so you always know *off the top of your head* what you will pay.

 

[telstarbox]

With a zonal system passengers would ask to be picked up or dropped off on one side of a 'border' if it made the fare cheaper and it could cause arguments.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With a zonal system passengers would ask to be picked up or dropped off on one side of a 'border' if it made the fare cheaper and it could cause arguments.

I'm not clear why it should cause arguments - the destination is either in the zone or it isn't.

 

[telstarbox]

But the nearest safe stopping point isn't necessarily in the same zone.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But the nearest safe stopping point isn't necessarily in the same zone.

Not an awful lot different from the present situation where the fare might creep up a bit before a safe stopping point is found. Though my observations from central London suggest that black cab drivers don't massively concern themselves with the appropriateness of stopping points.

 

[Greenback]

My issue with Uber is that they're trying to have their cake and eat it. They're trying to pretend that they are Private Hire when it comes to regulation but that they're a Hackney Carriage when it comes to metering.

If they want to be another Private Hire firm then they can behave like a Private Hire firm

That's pretty much what I think, too. I understand the motives behind them doing what they do, but I don't agree with it. Uber seem to be against any type of external regulation They don't want a level playing field at all, and I believe that's unfair to other providers who do play by whatever rules are in place.