UK face coverings discussion

[Huntergreed]

Can someone confirm: are masks mandatory in stations in England (both enclosed and open air)

 

[Richard Scott]

Can someone confirm: are masks mandatory in stations in England (both enclosed and open air)

Can't confirm but was told to put one on by BTP at Leeds a couple of weeks ago.

 

[island]

I have noticed however rather a lot of spots appearing on my chin, and I’m not sure if it’s related. I’m too old to have growing spots now and it’s not something I’ve had before, so maybe I’ve got a bit of mask rash or something. If that’s even a thing.

My wife wears masks and reports similar experiences. She asked me to pass on her suggestion to simply wash your face with soap and water whenever you get home.

I use transparent visors and have not been so affected.

Can someone confirm: are masks mandatory in stations in England (both enclosed and open air)

The current position is that they are required in indoor stations and parts of all stations, and additionally required in all parts of stations managed by TfL and its subsidiaries.

Indoor is defined by reference to the national smoking ban, which amounts to a roof plus walls enclosing more than 50% of the perimeter of the roof. Don’t ask me what applies if there are gaps or holes in the roof...

 

[LAX54]

"The rail safety body's analysis shows the risk of picking up the virus on a train is around one in 11,000 journeys, based on an hour-long train journey in a carriage with no social distancing or face coverings. The risk reduces by more than half when a face covering – which is mandatory on public transport across Britain for those without medical exemption – is worn.

To examine the risk, RSSB used a typical passenger journey, focusing on the time spent waiting on platforms, boarding and alighting, and the time spent on the train itself.

Public transport had been perceived as an infection hotspot due to people being close together. The new research is challenging this, showing that passengers are not as prone to infection as previously assumed. However, RSSB also says the evaluation could change as new information becomes available, or if the overall risk of infection across the country change"

Seems this works out at 0.01% which if I am not much mistaken is the same as everywhere else in the Country, Shops / Pubs etc

https://www.rssb.co.uk/Insights-and...-pandemic-how-we-can-help-you/Infection-Risks

 

[DB]

"The rail safety body's analysis shows the risk of picking up the virus on a train is around one in 11,000 journeys, based on an hour-long train journey in a carriage with no social distancing or face coverings. The risk reduces by more than half when a face covering – which is mandatory on public transport across Britain for those without medical exemption – is worn.

To examine the risk, RSSB used a typical passenger journey, focusing on the time spent waiting on platforms, boarding and alighting, and the time spent on the train itself.

Public transport had been perceived as an infection hotspot due to people being close together. The new research is challenging this, showing that passengers are not as prone to infection as previously assumed. However, RSSB also says the evaluation could change as new information becomes available, or if the overall risk of infection across the country change"

Seems this works out at 0.01% which if I am not much mistaken is the same as everywhere else in the Country, Shops / Pubs etc

Infection Risks

Public transport has been perceived to be an infection hotspot due to the vast number of people being in proximity. Our experts have collaborated with various specialists to estimate the risk of infection from Covid-19 on rail.

www.rssb.co.uk

How have they determined that a face covering reduces the risk by 'more than half'?

 

[yorkie]

Whatever anyone's views on masks are, there is a lot of confusion.

Do you have to wear a face covering in an open air part of the station?

And some people are claiming train crew must wear masks when walking through trains:
https://mobile.twitter.com/NewMini/status/1300382846994067456

Were is the face mask on the train cleaner

Passengers have been in the train. So the virus maybe there. That is why train crews are not to walk through trains.

If staff go through the train for any reason they must have a face mask on. Cleaner goes through the train.

 

[island]

That isn’t confusion, it’s plain ignorance.

 

[bramling]

Standard scare mongering!

The woman quoted “Stephanie from Cardiff” admits she had already decided to isolate before hearing about the positive cases (!) because she didn’t approve of the way other passengers were (or weren’t) wearing masks. I suspect she isn’t the sharpest knife in the draw, yet that doesn’t stop the BBC quoting her!

Which says it all, really. Whether masks would actually have made a difference or not isn’t even considered.

Indeed. Some people seem to like to jump straight in and blame others.

 

[jumble]

I am not impressed with the way some local to me charity shops are putting out signs that say
"you must wear a mask it is the law" without qualifying about exemptions.
I am enjoying telling managers that their statement is completely untrue and they should not be misleading their customers in this fashion and they are breaching the equality act

 

[LAX54]

Indeed. Some people seem to like to jump straight in and blame others.

If she wants to have a moan, she just needs to walk down the high street, and in / out various shops, masks all over the place, under chin (in a shop) under nose, covered nose, but mouth 'free' disposabale ones that look like they have been used for about a month or more, dragged out of pockets, handbags etc, people picking at and touching them (which I think many do)

 

[Richard Scott]

Indeed. Some people seem to like to jump straight in and blame others.

And even more sensationalism on the news on the radio when the person interviewed said that it was extremely scary. If she was that worried why was she going abroad in the first place? Don't know what happened after that as turned it off!

 

[DB]

I am not impressed with the way some local to me charity shops are putting out signs that say
"you must wear a mask it is the law" without qualifying about exemptions.
I am enjoying telling managers that their statement is completely untrue and they should not be misleading their customers in this fashion and they are breaching the equality act

It's certainly not just charity shops. I looked at mask signs while walking through the town one evening recently. Probably over three quarters of the shops have them. Exact wording varies, but not one mentioned exemptions.

 

[bramling]

It's certainly not just charity shops. I looked at mask signs while walking through the town one evening recently. Probably over three quarters of the shops have them. Exact wording varies, but not one mentioned exemptions.

Same in my town, especially with the small shops. Meanwhile the local paper is reporting business down, but doesn’t mention masks! Clearly these shops don’t want business.

Having said that, it’s a difficult line for them to tread, as local Facebook is full of mask shaming. No doubt there would be hell to play if Karen enters a shop to spend her furlough money or while away her furlough time and snaps a picture of someone not wearing a mask, it would be all over Facebook like a shot and the shop concerned would be shamed.

 

[Robert]

I've now managed to get my mask wearing down to zero. My partner continues to cut my hair (getting better at it every time!), I'm using my car instead of public transport, I've now discovered a local old fashioned petrol station that does attendant service so I don't have to get out of my car to pay and all my provisions are now delivered to my front door. My weekly grocery bill is now slightly higher but I am more than happy with this arrangement if it means that I no longer have to walk around the supermarket in a mask which I tried a couple of times but found extremely stressful and I just had to grab what I wanted and leave as soon as possible. And it has also now become apparent just how poor quality a lot of the meat and veg is in the supermarket compared to what I get delivered from the local butcher and greengrocer!

 

[3rd rail land]

I've now managed to get my mask wearing down to zero. My partner continues to cut my hair (getting better at it every time!), I'm using my car instead of public transport, I've now discovered a local old fashioned petrol station that does attendant service so I don't have to get out of my car to pay and all my provisions are now delivered to my front door. My weekly grocery bill is now slightly higher but I am more than happy with this arrangement if it means that I no longer have to walk around the supermarket in a mask which I tried a couple of times but found extremely stressful and I just had to grab what I wanted and leave as soon as possible. And it has also now become apparent just how poor quality a lot of the meat and veg is in the supermarket compared to what I get delivered from the local butcher and greengrocer!

In your situation I wouldn't go out of my way to avoid wearing a mask I would simply not wear a mask. If wearing a mask causes stress I would consider that a good enough reason to be exempt. Personally I wouldn't care if people gave me any funny looks and would ignore any members of the public which insist upon you masking up beyond saying I am exempt and therefore not required to wear mask. I wouldn't bother with any cards or lanyards explaining this as they are not required by law nor would I disclose the reason for the exemption as it's none of other people's business except for perhaps the police. If a shop or organisation asks me to leave as a result of being maskless I would not give them any more custom unless there was no viable alternative.

 

[Huntergreed]

Just got on a Scotrail 170 from Edinburgh where a group of boys not wearing masks got on. Conversation went like this:

Guard: Put your masks on gentlemen

Boy 1: I can’t, I’m exempt

Guard: No exemptions, put your mask on or I’ll have to ask you to leave

(Boys 2,3 and 4 put their masks on)

Boy 1: I genuinely can’t, I have asthma

Guard: You’re Young and healthy, you need a mask to travel

Boy 1: I don’t have one because I’m exempt

(Guard walks away)

Sad to see things like this, not sure what happened next as I got off, I will be reporting this.

 

[3rd rail land]

Just got on a Scotrail 170 from Edinburgh where a group of boys not wearing masks got on. Conversation went like this:

Guard: Put your masks on gentlemen

Boy 1: I can’t, I’m exempt

Guard: No exemptions, put your mask on or I’ll have to ask you to leave

(Boys 2,3 and 4 put their masks on)

Boy 1: I genuinely can’t, I have asthma

Guard: You’re Young and healthy, you need a mask to travel

Boy 1: I don’t have one because I’m exempt

(Guard walks away)

Sad to see things like this, not sure what happened next as I got off, I will be reporting this.

Out of order but at least the guard didn't turf him off the train. Perhaps because he was a child. The guard should have accepted he had an exemption, especially after he revealed he had asthma.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And some people are claiming train crew must wear masks when walking through trains:
https://mobile.twitter.com/NewMini/status/1300382846994067456

It's clear that this is not required, and it's equally clear that many people, me included, believe it should be required, as to do otherwise is inconsistent and hypocritical. Either everyone must wear (bar those who are exempt for medical/mental health reasons), or no-one need wear.

 

[43066]

It's clear that this is not required, and it's equally clear that many people, me included, believe it should be required, as to do otherwise is inconsistent and hypocritical. Either everyone must wear (bar those who are exempt for medical/mental health reasons), or no-one need wear.

Inconsistent, yes, but not hypocritical given that it isn’t (or shouldn’t be!) rail staff who are insisting that you wear masks. You could be reported for non compliance by a police officer who is also exempt from wearing a mask when on duty. That might be a better example of “hypocrisy”.

Perhaps you are now starting to see what a divisive and damaging policy this is. There’s “weak evidence” that it serves any useful purpose, and it is making many peoples’ lives a great deal more unpleasant at an already difficult time - including many of society’s most vulnerable members.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Inconsistent, yes, but not hypocritical given that it isn’t (or shouldn’t be!) rail staff who are insisting that you wear masks. You could be reported for non compliance by a police officer who is also exempt from wearing a mask when on duty. That might be a better example of “hypocrisy”.

Yes, it absolutely is, and TBH it makes me quite angry that Police enforcing the requirement are usually not wearing masks. I have no respect for hypocrites; unless exempt those Police Officers should really be choosing to wear one for their credibility in enforcement, and I rather hope they have not been prohibited from doing so.

 

[talldave]

Yes, it absolutely is, and TBH it makes me quite angry that Police enforcing the requirement are usually not wearing masks. I have no respect for hypocrites; unless exempt those Police Officers should really be choosing to wear one for their credibility in enforcement, and I rather hope they have not been prohibited from doing so.

Amazingly the police in London around Saturday's protest were wearing masks. But for some weird reason, they were back to normal and not wearing them the following day.

 

[adc82140]

Just got on a Scotrail 170 from Edinburgh where a group of boys not wearing masks got on. Conversation went like this:

Guard: Put your masks on gentlemen

Boy 1: I can’t, I’m exempt

Guard: No exemptions, put your mask on or I’ll have to ask you to leave

(Boys 2,3 and 4 put their masks on)

Boy 1: I genuinely can’t, I have asthma

Guard: You’re Young and healthy, you need a mask to travel

Boy 1: I don’t have one because I’m exempt

(Guard walks away)

Sad to see things like this, not sure what happened next as I got off, I will be reporting this.

Where is the staff training? Why are staff allowed to make their own rules up? I can tell you now that as an NHS employee if I made my own rules up I would not be an NHS employee for very much longer.

 

[43066]

Where is the staff training? Why are staff allowed to make their own rules up? I can tell you now that as an NHS employee if I made my own rules up I would not be an NHS employee for very much longer.

There most likely won’t be any formal training. There shouldn’t really need to be (although, in my view, announcements should be standardised a la “see it, say it, sorted” and should include specific references to exemptions)

TOCs might ask staff to politely remind passengers about face coverings, either by making announcements or in person, but anything over and above that - especially denial of exemptions etc. - will be coming from them as individuals.

 

[DB]

There most likely won’t be any formal training. There shouldn’t really need to be (although, in my view, announcements should be standardised a la “see it, say it, sorted” and should include specific references to exemptions)

TOCs might ask staff to politely remind passengers about face coverings, either by making announcements or in person, but anything over and above that - especially denial of exemptions etc. - will be coming from them as individuals.

I would assume that TOCs send out regular briefings to their staff? Can they not send them a link to the government guidance (including exemptions lists) and get them to confirm that they have read and understood it, and will act accordingly? Not difficult surely?

 

[trebor79]

I would assume that TOCs send out regular briefings to their staff? Can they not send them a link to the government guidance (including exemptions lists) and get them to confirm that they have read and understood it, and will act accordingly? Not difficult surely?

Perhaps some of the managers are coronaphobes and are quite happy with overzealous enforcement?

 

[adc82140]

I would assume that TOCs send out regular briefings to their staff? Can they not send them a link to the government guidance (including exemptions lists) and get them to confirm that they have read and understood it, and will act accordingly? Not difficult surely?

That is exactly how it was done for me at work. We had a specific face mask standard operating procedure published, which we had to read, digitally sign and return. It went in to exemptions in detail.

 

[bramling]

Yes, it absolutely is, and TBH it makes me quite angry that Police enforcing the requirement are usually not wearing masks. I have no respect for hypocrites; unless exempt those Police Officers should really be choosing to wear one for their credibility in enforcement, and I rather hope they have not been prohibited from doing so.

Ever done an “operational” type job?

If you had you’d know why masks just don’t work. The police will be making the sensible decision that they don’t want to *increase* their exposure to risk simply to appease one subset of people or to worry about what some people think.

Same at my place. Whenever anything has kicked off, even those who had chosen to wear masks find they either end up coming off altogether or wind up round the chin.

A mask may be one thing in a sterile controlled environment like an operating theatre, it’s quite another in the rough and tumble of somewhere like a railway. No doubt same applies for the police.

Inconsistent, yes, but not hypocritical given that it isn’t (or shouldn’t be!) rail staff who are insisting that you wear masks. You could be reported for non compliance by a police officer who is also exempt from wearing a mask when on duty. That might be a better example of “hypocrisy”.

Perhaps you are now starting to see what a divisive and damaging policy this is. There’s “weak evidence” that it serves any useful purpose, and it is making many peoples’ lives a great deal more unpleasant at an already difficult time - including many of society’s most vulnerable members.

In reality one is highly unlikely to be reported by a police officer without a mask. It’s been made clear to me what the BTP think of all this. Whilst there are doubtless some hardcore maskophiles in the police, just like society in general, they seem to be the minority, and would presumably make a point of having their own mask on.

 

[43066]

I would assume that TOCs send out regular briefings to their staff? Can they not send them a link to the government guidance (including exemptions lists) and get them to confirm that they have read and understood it, and will act accordingly? Not difficult surely?

Perhaps some of the managers are coronaphobes and are quite happy with overzealous enforcement?

I suspect it’s a combination of not asking staff to “enforce” as has been (rightly) resisted by the unions, and also wanting to confer some discretion on guards to defuse arguments over masks etc.

And of course good old fashioned railway disorganisation and unwillingness to spend money.

Perhaps @LowLevel could elaborate on what, if any, formal instruction he has been given.

 

[Huntergreed]

Just because I was bored and on one of their services, I decided to ask Scotrail whether I was allowed to remove my mask if I’m alone in the carriage on Twitter. Their response:

Hello, a covering should be worn at all times in stations and on the train. This should be done even if alone on the platform or in the carriage. ^Ste

Even pro-mask people must realise how stupid it is to expect someone to wear a mask when they’re alone on an open platform.

 

[Richard Scott]

Just because I was bored and on one of their services, I decided to ask Scotrail whether I was allowed to remove my mask if I’m alone in the carriage on Twitter. Their response:



Even pro-mask people must realise how stupid it is to expect someone to wear a mask when they’re alone on an open platform.

I'd be tempted to ask them why!