Understanding Spotting and Enthusiasts

[ComUtoR]

You still see that from some of the members on this forum, you can tell the older ones because they capitalise Driver whenever they write it.

I capitalize Driver. I consider it a "title" I am Driver XXX XXX Just as a Signaler is referred to by his "title" It is a Job title and this is a professional forum. I have done my time and paid my dues but I am in no way an "older" Driver.

It isn't that I find the role special in any way. I do it for grammatical purposes.

 

[TDK]

I saw a good example of spotters behaving like idiots today and treating staff like morons.

So RTT said that there was a freight train due through our station, something which is unusual during the day. As I wasn't doing anything I mooched down to see what it was.

I got there and there were a couple of guys there waiting for it. Video camera in hand. An older guy and a younger guy.

Anyway, the train was due on the up line so they were on the down platform standing close to the edge of the platform.

A track worker quite politely advises them to stand back as the trains will come from behind them.

Spotters: 'We know'

'There's no train for two hours'

Worker: 'There are unscheduled trains like engineering trains'

Spotters: 'We've got the freight timetable'

Worker: 'They run late, there was someone hit by a train last week at [I forget the station he said]'

Spotters: [getting aggressive now] 'We know what we are doing. There are no trains coming this way.'

and so it went on.

It was clear that the spotters thought that they knew best and talked down to the trackworker. The trackworker was certainly not being arsey. He was doing what I think was reasonable - ie asking them to be careful. [I am sure that if someone were to get hit there would be tons of complaints about why didn't staff say anything].

So what I don't get is why some spotters think that i) they know it all and ii) they are superior to others (workers, users, etc). Is this a function of the autism/poor social skills? Why do they feel that they are entitled to behave differently to everyone else?

I had a numpty at Wem jump the LC barriers in front of my train when at a stand and said to him "that is a dangerous practice" He said "I needed to catch this train and I know exactly what time the trains run so I know what I am doing" we were 4 minutes late so obviously he doesn't know what times the trains will be there or he would have been on the platform in time to not have to jump the barriers, he wasn't a spotter by the way, the line speed at Wem is 90mph by the way and trains do run late.

 

[fluff]

Is this a function of the autism/poor social skills?

What autism? Are you just assuming these people are autistic or do you have some sort of qualification for diagnosing autism? Contrary to popular opinion most autistic people are not trainspotters and most trainspotters are not autistic.

 

[Monkey Magic]

Yeah I do have experience in recognising and dealing with autistic people thanks, interaction relating to verbal/non-verbal communication issues are one part of ASD.

There are three explanations that I can come up with - either these people were unpleasant people who thought they knew it all and had the right to talk down to someone who was actually looking out for their safety, they have no human interaction skills, or given their inability to interact they suffer from ASD.

If they had ASD then their behaviour would be understandable, if they don't then it is unacceptable and uncalled for.

If you don't have issues with interaction and verbal communication what is the justification for behaving as they did? No wonder many rail workers hate spotters if people behave like that.

 

[fowler9]

What autism? Are you just assuming these people are autistic or do you have some sort of qualification for diagnosing autism? Contrary to popular opinion most autistic people are not trainspotters and most trainspotters are not autistic.

I think it was a reasonable question to be honest. Autism wasn't the first or even the second explanation offered.

 

[bb21]

So what I don't get is why some spotters think that i) they know it all and ii) they are superior to others (workers, users, etc). Is this a function of the autism/poor social skills? Why do they feel that they are entitled to behave differently to everyone else?

Should have had them evicted. That'd teach them to be rude and arrogant.

These idiots are not enthusiasts. They are idiots. Plain and simple.

 

[fluff]

Yeah I do have experience in recognising and dealing with autistic people thanks, interaction relating to verbal/non-verbal communication issues are one part of ASD

Thank you, I'm aware of the issues autistic people face. I'm one myself. Most neurotypical people would probably consider my social communication skills to be poor and I wouldn't disagree. That does not automatically make me rude, arsey or arrogant. In every other respect, my communication skills are just fine and allow me to do complex, highly responsible things, such as driving trains.

The people described in your original post were behaving in a rude, arrogant manner. That does not automatically make them autistic. Plenty of neurotypical people behave that way. Navigating a world set up for neurotypical people is difficult enough for us as it is, without being negatively stereotyped in this way. As you have "experience" of dealing with autistic people, you will also know how true that is. The people you describe may be autistic or may be neurotypical but it would take even a highly qualified medical professional rather longer than one short observation on a railway station to make a diagnosis with any degree of certainly.

I would suggest that your original question might be better phrased as, "So what I don't get is why some spotters think that i) they know it all and ii) they are superior to others (workers, users, etc). Is this a function of being human?" The answer to that question for some people, whatever their neurological background, would be, "Yes".

 

[LAX54]

I capitalize Driver. I consider it a "title" I am Driver XXX XXX Just as a Signaler is referred to by his "title" It is a Job title and this is a professional forum. I have done my time and paid my dues but I am in no way an "older" Driver.

It isn't that I find the role special in any way. I do it for grammatical purposes.

Many don't get taught how to write English anymore, and most simply use text speak when they write, blame technology or Teachers ? Driver Jones...Signalman Smith ....Inspector Jones...

 

[wensley]

I capitalize Driver. I consider it a "title" I am Driver XXX XXX Just as a Signaler is referred to by his "title" It is a Job title and this is a professional forum. I have done my time and paid my dues but I am in no way an "older" Driver.

It isn't that I find the role special in any way. I do it for grammatical purposes.

Indeed, I capitalise Signaller, Driver, Guard, Controller and the like as a matter of course.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This actually takes me to a reversal of the original question - why do people who hate passengers work on the railways in customer facing jobs? There are some people I've seen posting here and watching staff at various stations, and I really do wonder if dealing with people is the right job for them. It seems that the only bit of pleasure they get is from being an arse to customers.

Or maybe the job makes you hate the passengers??

 

[snowball]

I've sometimes read accident reports from 50 years ago or more and it always seemed to me that their habit of calling people things like "Driver Smith" was a form of class distinction - drivers etc didn't get a "Mr" while those in management or higher technical/professional grades did.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

I've sometimes read accident reports from 50 years ago or more and it always seemed to me that their habit of calling people things like "Driver Smith" was a form of class distinction - drivers etc didn't get a "Mr" while those in management or higher technical/professional grades did.

Perhaps then (as now) it was sometimes quite difficult to work out what useful function the people higher up the chain actually fulfilled in order to describe their rôle.

 

[Monkey Magic]

Should have had them evicted. That'd teach them to be rude and arrogant.

These idiots are not enthusiasts. They are idiots. Plain and simple.

And their the ones who get everyone else a bad name. I'd knock it on the head and say 'oh it is a couple of people' but it seems closer to the majority of the 'visible' enthusiasts than a rogue minority.

Thank you, I'm aware of the issues autistic people face. I'm one myself. Most neurotypical people would probably consider my social communication skills to be poor and I wouldn't disagree. That does not automatically make me rude, arsey or arrogant. In every other respect, my communication skills are just fine and allow me to do complex, highly responsible things, such as driving trains.

The people described in your original post were behaving in a rude, arrogant manner. That does not automatically make them autistic. Plenty of neurotypical people behave that way. Navigating a world set up for neurotypical people is difficult enough for us as it is, without being negatively stereotyped in this way. As you have "experience" of dealing with autistic people, you will also know how true that is. The people you describe may be autistic or may be neurotypical but it would take even a highly qualified medical professional rather longer than one short observation on a railway station to make a diagnosis with any degree of certainly.

I would suggest that your original question might be better phrased as, "So what I don't get is why some spotters think that i) they know it all and ii) they are superior to others (workers, users, etc). Is this a function of being human?" The answer to that question for some people, whatever their neurological background, would be, "Yes".

I am sorry if you felt that 'autism' was used as a pejorative term because that was not my intention.

I did not say 'these people are arsey therefore they are autistic'. Nor did I say 'they were autistic therefore they were arsey'.

My first assumption was that they were unpleasant people. If, to give them the benefit of the doubt and they are not unpleasant people then why would they struggle with verbal interaction?

As we well know, ASD is on spectrum and ASD does not equal 'Dustin Hoffman in Rainman.'

However, it is also documented that spotting can/does appear to appeal to some people with ASD. In all likelihood, you are going to run into spotters with ASD in varying degrees.

Indeed, I capitalise Signaller, Driver, Guard, Controller and the like as a matter of course.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Or maybe the job makes you hate the passengers??

I think then I'd start looking for a new job in that case.

I do sometimes wonder if some people who are miserable in their jobs make themselves feel better by making life unpleasant for other people.

 

[Nevillehill]

A bit controversial but I am trying to understand some of the actions of spotters and enthusiasts below is a list of observations from a rail staffs point of view who isn't a spotter:

1. Why are enthusiasts excited by trains that spew out copious amounts of smoke and fumes when it is clearly bad for the environment?

2. What is the attraction of steep gradients?

3. Why do you dwell on the past?

4. What is the point in being hauled by a different loco within the same class?

5. What is the attraction to the drivers sounding the horn and doing the up and down movement of ones arm?

6. What is the attraction of travelling over a length of line for the first time in the dark?

7. Why do you smile at a train when it pulls into a station even when it is a 153 and late?

8. What do you do will all the photos you take?

9. Do you all use the terms hellfire and my lordz

10. What is the reason for marking off train numbers in a book?

I can understand being interested in the infrastructure and how it all works and also interested in the engineering of steam trains but the others to be fair I am at a loss what the attraction is. Please don't take this as a wee wee take I see a lot of spotters and am just trying to understand why they do it?

Class 37s on the Barrow in Furness Carlisle are sexy when they set off, he'll fire machines the power fumes the noise.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Class 37s on the Barrow in Furness Carlisle are sexy when they set off, he'll fire machines the power fumes the noise.

8, I sell them to Railway magazines

 

[RPM]

Why do you (spotters) stand and stare through cab windows at stations, or point cameras at the front of the train from close quarters, with no regard to the driver's privacy or personal space?

Is it really that much of an intrusion having a camera pointed at your train? It's never bothered me. It comes with the territory and has been happening for far longer than either you or I have been in the driving grade, so it is something you have to accept when you take the job on. I think its quite nice when somebody is interested enough in the train I'm driving to want to photograph it.

 

[fluff]

My first assumption was that they were unpleasant people. If, to give them the benefit of the doubt and they are not unpleasant people then why would they struggle with verbal interaction?

However, it is also documented that spotting can/does appear to appeal to some people with ASD. In all likelihood, you are going to run into spotters with ASD in varying degrees.

I think your first assumption was probably right. They were unpleasant people, but we can't deduce anything else about them from such a short observation. They were just somewhat aggressive with their responses. People do this all the time, whether they are autistic or not. I see it in traincrew messrooms every day where people who believe that their view is the correct one become very aggressive in defending that view. I'm pretty sure none of them are autistic though.

No doubt there are plenty of spotters with ASD as there are about 700,000 autistic people in the UK. Most of those have a "special interest" or multiple interests (also for some strange reason known simply as hobbies when applied to non autistic people) of some sort, which may include trains, although animals and nature, along with science and engineering tend to be the commonest interests, with transportation systems in general coming somewhere below that.

All we really know is that these people were railway enthusiasts of some sort and they were a bit aggressive. Trains plus aggression does not equal autism, so there isn't really any need to bring autism into the discussion at all. I understand that you were not deliberately attempting to denigrate autistic people, but you are helping to perpetuate negative stereotypes, albeit unintentionally. All that achieves is to make life harder for us when it is already hard enough as it is thank you very much.

Anyway, that is where I shall leave this particular discussion before it becomes too stressful, or I might turn into one of those mad, angry, frothing at the mouth people with Asperger's Syndrome. That last bit was a joke.

 

[EM2]

This actually takes me to a reversal of the original question - why do people who hate passengers work on the railways in customer facing jobs? There are some people I've seen posting here and watching staff at various stations, and I really do wonder if dealing with people is the right job for them. It seems that the only bit of pleasure they get is from being an arse to customers.

I would say that 99.9% of the customer service I receive is perfectly acceptable. It is not 'going the extra mile' but nor is it abrupt and dismissive. The exception are supermarkets in Forest Gate but that's by the by.
I have worked in customer service, either face-to-face or on phones, almost continuously since I was eighteen and I do a bloody good job. And yes, there are some times when I will admit that my service has not been entirely up to scratch.
But when faced with a customer who is 100% in the WRONG, and refuses to be guided by the advice of people who want to put them right and resolve the issue, and they then get told by that customer that they are jobsworths or rude or patronising and that person is going to get them fired, or worse, get them 'done over' after work, then they can hardly be blamed if their standards drop a little.
I got so worn down by being on the frontline all the time, that I just couldn't do it any more and I'm not alone. The good staff get so annoyed with how they get treated BY the customer, even when they have done everything they can, that they want to get out.

 

[bramling]

I would say that 99.9% of the customer service I receive is perfectly acceptable. It is not 'going the extra mile' but nor is it abrupt and dismissive. The exception are supermarkets in Forest Gate but that's by the by.
I have worked in customer service, either face-to-face or on phones, almost continuously since I was eighteen and I do a bloody good job. And yes, there are some times when I will admit that my service has not been entirely up to scratch.
But when faced with a customer who is 100% in the WRONG, and refuses to be guided by the advice of people who want to put them right and resolve the issue, and they then get told by that customer that they are jobsworths or rude or patronising and that person is going to get them fired, or worse, get them 'done over' after work, then they can hardly be blamed if their standards drop a little.
I got so worn down by being on the frontline all the time, that I just couldn't do it any more and I'm not alone. The good staff get so annoyed with how they get treated BY the customer, even when they have done everything they can, that they want to get out.

I would say most, if not all, staff join with a good attotude towards passengers. However, it doesn't take long dealing with passengers for a negative impression to form, which over time becomes 'they're lucky to have the service at all'. Unfortunately, the attitude of a minority of passengers is so bad that it's easy to see why staff can be lethargic in return.

Also worth adding that many jobs on the railway don't involve direct contact with passengers at all. Even in driving and trains management roles it's quite possible for weeks and months to pass without having to speak to a passenger face-to-face. From a train staff's point of view I will tend to refer any passengers to station staff if they require any form of assistance that doesn't relate to the train itself. Likewise if the job is up the wall I will help passengers if they are polite and civil, but if they're arsey then I am more than within rights to walk away and let them find their own solution. As I say, I used to be more helpful, but over time dealing with rubbish (and I mean rubbish) I've become much less helpful.