Understanding Spotting and Enthusiasts

[wellwhatitis]

O come on, you joined this forum!

Yes, I joined when I was trying to get the job. And I find it very useful to gain information and knowledge that I actually need and is difficult to obtain at work when you are generally working on your own all day and don't get to talk to many colleagues, it's sometimes quicker on here.

And to keep up to date with what is happening in the industry that could affect my job and my future.

That's what I use it for.
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Those who are enthusiasts and those who are in denial

Sorry, neither of the above. I can't see why anybody would need to 'deny' anything they are passionate about. I certainly don't, but unfortunately I find trains exceptionally uninteresting and my rest days, long weekends, salary and travel privileges are by far the biggest benefit of my job as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Condor7]

As a relative newcomer to the rail industry, the thing that gets me is that both enthusiasts and passengers alike seem to assume that I must be interested in trains and have vast knowledge of them. I hate the feeling that passengers in particular must associate me with these platform statues and assume I am made of the same stuff. It makes me very uneasy.

I would imagine it is quite natural for passengers to assume some interest in the railway if you work on it. The fact that you don't is your problem not theirs. If I go into a shop I expect the staff working in that shop to have some interest in the products they are selling and even if they do not, I expect them to pretend they do for good customer service.

Likewise with enthusiasts, the assumption you refer to will surely only be them approaching you for a chat which at worst is them trying to be friendly. I think it is a compliment to them that they are not made of the "same stuff as you"

 

[anthony263]

I admit I am a bus/train enthusiast however that makes me take pride in my job and I do it because I like it rather than just for the money like some people do.

I get the mik take out of me at times but I know some of my fellow drivers are plane enthusiasts so we do have a bit of banter.

That said I do know of some enthusiasts who were not be good at customer service

 

[wellwhatitis]

I would imagine it is quite natural for passengers to assume some interest in the railway if you work on it. The fact that you don't is your problem not theirs. If I go into a shop I expect the staff working in that shop to have some interest in the products they are selling and even if they do not, I expect them to pretend they do for good customer service.

Likewise with enthusiasts, the assumption you refer to will surely only be them approaching you for a chat which at worst is them trying to be friendly. I think it is a compliment to them that they are not made of the "same stuff as you"

Excuse me, but where did I say I had no interest in good customer service? If you read my post properly I think you'll find I was saying the exact opposite. I was talking about interest in trains, not in the product. they are two completely different things.

But thanks for the personal attack nevertheless....

 

[Condor7]

Excuse me, but where did I say I had no interest in good customer service? If you read my post properly I think you'll find I was saying the exact opposite. I was talking about interest in trains, not in the product. they are two completely different things.

But thanks for the personal attack nevertheless....

I did not mean to imply you were not interested in customer service, in fact I did note your comment about joining this forum to better understand.

The point I was making was that passengers and enthusiasts will sometimes mistakenly, but quite naturally, assume you have an interest in railways. Either way they are only being friendly.

My personal attack was due to the nature of your comments, referring to enthusiasts as statues, and not wanting to be identified as the "same stuff as them"

I worked in a golf shop for a short while many years ago despite having no interest in golf, yet the customers more often than not assumed I did. I never minded this as I thought it a perfectly natural assumption. I would have never dreamed of going on a golf forum and making the comments you made, I found it rude and disrespectful.

 

[fowler9]

As a relative newcomer to the rail industry, the thing that gets me is that both enthusiasts and passengers alike seem to assume that I must be interested in trains and have vast knowledge of them. I hate the feeling that passengers in particular must associate me with these platform statues and assume I am made of the same stuff. It makes me very uneasy.

I have no interest whatsoever in the railway, other than to do my utmost to provide service to both my employer and the passengers that I am there for in the 36 hours per week I am working. I have the knowledge I have been given in training, and have topped it up with the odd thing that has cropped up along the way that helps me with my job and my passengers.

It is a job that I needed and need and that is it for me. And people like me do seem to be frowned upon by many in the industry which I find alarming, as it doesn't happen in other industries where people just come to work to earn money and make a living. Ironically we are also the ones that seem to turn up like clockwork and do our jobs.

What is it you are in to that is so interesting and do you have any roof that as a none rail enthusiast you are any better than anyone else at turning up like clockwork and doing your job? If so show it to your manager.

 

[wellwhatitis]

I did not mean to imply you were not interested in customer service, in fact I did note your comment about joining this forum to better understand.

The point I was making was that passengers and enthusiasts will sometimes mistakenly, but quite naturally, assume you have an interest in railways. Either way they are only being friendly.

My personal attack was due to the nature of your comments, referring to enthusiasts as statues, and not wanting to be identified as the "same stuff as them"

I worked in a golf shop for a short while many years ago despite having no interest in golf, yet the customers more often than not assumed I did. I never minded this as I thought it a perfectly natural assumption. I would have never dreamed of going on a golf forum and making the comments you made, I found it rude and disrespectful.

It was just a turn of phrase. I'm not made of the same stuff as I don't share their interest, isn't that just a fair comment? I said platform statues because I have completed 9 hour duties and seen the same people in the same place at the beginning, throughout and at the end.

The thread is about understanding them, and I don't. Am I not allowed to say that? I certainly wasn't attempting to disrespect you or be rude to you, just give my observation. I'm sorry that you didn't like it.

 

[TheNewNo2]

Why do you (spotters) stand and stare through cab windows at stations, or point cameras at the front of the train from close quarters, with no regard to the driver's privacy or personal space?
Why do you pester a total stranger for access to a restricted workplace, when you see one of us entering our cabs?

Can't say I've ever stared into a cab unless said cab was unoccupied. As for cameras, yes, I take photos, and sometimes a driver is visible. I also occasionally take photos of streets which have people on. If you're in a job such as bus or train driver, it is not reasonable to expect privacy while in your "office", anymore than a lollipop person would expect privacy while out on the street.

 

[wellwhatitis]

What is it you are in to that is so interesting and do you have any roof that as a none rail enthusiast you are any better than anyone else at turning up like clockwork and doing your job? If so show it to your manager.

I'm not really sure what you're implying from what I said. I don't claim any of those things. In fact I often find it to be very much the other way round. People like me are often looked down on and not given polarity just because we treat the industry as a job and nothing more. I didn't say I was better than anyone else or that my interests were superior. Please show me where I did?

I'm starting to think that only enthusiasts are welcome on this forum. Is that the case?

 

[DaleCooper]

I'm starting to think that only enthusiasts are welcome on this forum. Is that the case?

What a coincidence.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=116724

 

[Condor7]

I'm starting to think that only enthusiasts are welcome on this forum. Is that the case?

No you are more than welcome, and to be honest it is good for someone to express and alternate view. I fully accept your earlier comment that you did not intend to be rude or disrespectful, it just came over that way which can happen when you think of something in your head but then try and commit it to print. I also apologise if I overacted.

 

[fowler9]

I'm not really sure what you're implying from what I said. I don't claim any of those things. In fact I often find it to be very much the other way round. People like me are often looked down on and not given polarity just because we treat the industry as a job and nothing more. I didn't say I was better than anyone else or that my interests were superior. Please show me where I did?

I'm starting to think that only enthusiasts are welcome on this forum. Is that the case?

Mate you are course more than than welcome not that it is down to me. I am neither a railway worker or a mad railway enthusiast, I just enjoy that chat. With all due respect though when you say you don't know what I was implying you said, "Ironically we are also the ones that seem to turn up like clockwork and do our jobs."

 

[450.emu]

Doesn't anyone shout out "Cop" any more? (and it doesn't refer to a policeman).

Hellfire is also common phrase for bus enthusiasts - especially in YouTube videos of aging, ex Arriva London vehicles being thrashed to within an inch of their lives

Never heard of the phrase 'Cop' though, except for police (or as kids in Tottenham call them, Babylon) :roll:

 

[wellwhatitis]

Mate you are course more than than welcome not that it is down to me. I am neither a railway worker or a mad railway enthusiast, I just enjoy that chat. With all due respect though when you say you don't know what I was implying you said, "Ironically we are also the ones that seem to turn up like clockwork and do our jobs."

Thanks. All I meant by that was that in my experience so far the people that come 'off the street' as they call it seem to be far more reliable, where the people always off sick or fiddling something or dumping on me on my spare days seem to be the more established and railway centric folk. I'm just saying what I see. It may not be the same everywhere.
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No you are more than welcome, and to be honest it is good for someone to express and alternate view. I fully accept your earlier comment that you did not intend to be rude or disrespectful, it just came over that way which can happen when you think of something in your head but then try and commit it to print. I also apologise if I overacted.

It's fine. I have a direct manner so it's understandable.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Why do you (spotters) stand and stare through cab windows at stations, or point cameras at the front of the train from close quarters, with no regard to the driver's privacy or personal space?
Why do you pester a total stranger for access to a restricted workplace, when you see one of us entering our cabs?

I don't think I've seen anybody pester drivers or guards for access to a restricted area, so perhaps "why do some spotters" would be a better phrasing of the question?

Pointing cameras... well, it's an occupation of the job really; same with bus drivers, lorry drivers, emergency service staff, and even members of the public tooting along in their private cars. The driver barely turns out at all since the focus is on the train itself, not the person driving it. Train driver spotting isn't a thing that I'm aware of yet...

Never heard of the phrase 'Cop' though, except for police (or as kids in Tottenham call them, Babylon) :roll:

I dated a girl in school who called the rozzers "Babylon". In fairness, she was a second gen (immigrant, not DMU) from Jamaica...

 

[TheNewNo2]

Train driver spotting isn't a thing that I'm aware of yet...

I suddenly have this image of the BTP having to install ropelines to keep back hordes of teenage girls who want Keith the Driver's autograph.

 

[fluff]

Thanks. All I meant by that was that in my experience so far the people that come 'off the street' as they call it seem to be far more reliable, where the people always off sick or fiddling something or dumping on me on my spare days seem to be the more established and railway centric folk. I'm just saying what I see. It may not be the same everywhere.

You are correct. It is not the same everywhere.

 

[bramling]

You are correct. It is not the same everywhere.

Where I am, I'd say it's hard to observe a set pattern.

We have some superb new drivers who are very clued up about the job, and rarely if ever go sick. Meanwhile we also have some more established drivers who have been 'on the job' for 20+ years and are equally reliable.

What I would say is that some of the newer drivers can arrive with, or quickly pick up, a quite lippy "I know my rights" attitude. Yes established drivers know how to play the system too, but generally I'd say on balance the newer ones who choose to do it are generally *much* more of a pain in the arse all round, as they copy what they see established drivers doing, without having the railway knowledge to back themselves up.

"I didn't have a SPAD, when I got out of the cab the signal was green". Yes love, that's because you didn't go over the blockjoint and it cleared after you passed it. The driver concerned still chose to argue this one to the last, despite having only been passed out for two weeks.
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Can't say I've ever stared into a cab unless said cab was unoccupied. As for cameras, yes, I take photos, and sometimes a driver is visible. I also occasionally take photos of streets which have people on. If you're in a job such as bus or train driver, it is not reasonable to expect privacy while in your "office", anymore than a lollipop person would expect privacy while out on the street.

My view is that you can't generally expect a fully private environment working on the railway. We have places that are out-of-bounds to the public (eg cabs, signal boxes, messrooms, booking on points etc), but as long as someone isn't somewhere they shouldn't be then I don't have a problem being photographed.

If you want full privacy then there are some railway jobs where you get your own personal private office and can pull the window blinds down when desired, however a driving cab isn't one of these.

From a driving perspective, compared to the antics of some passengers, railway enthusiasts are a group that generally cause me least problems.

 

[weeman0]

I don't think it's any secret that railways are of particular appeal to those with autistic spectrum disorders - the patterns and numbers involved with railways (and indeed buses) are of great appeal - and thus some of the behaviours of such enthusiasts might look unusual to the casual observer.

I'd say the sight and sound of an engine working hard is something that most people interested in mechanical devices enjoy seeing - myself included - the sound of a Class 37 under load is something I find particularly special, much more than 'clag', for me.

Finally! A sensible opinion,

 

[6Gman]

I suddenly have this image of the BTP having to install ropelines to keep back hordes of teenage girls who want Keith the Driver's autograph.

There was a time in the 50s when collecting the autographs of top-link drivers was not uncommon!

 

[TDK]

I don't think I've seen anybody pester drivers or guards for access to a restricted area, so perhaps "why do some spotters" would be a better phrasing of the question?

Pointing cameras... well, it's an occupation of the job really; same with bus drivers, lorry drivers, emergency service staff, and even members of the public tooting along in their private cars. The driver barely turns out at all since the focus is on the train itself, not the person driving it. Train driver spotting isn't a thing that I'm aware of yet...

Pointing cameras is fine but ensure the flash is off please! Nothing worse than coming up to buffer stops with a flash going off. I have had spotters asking to enter my cab to video it and say they have "cabbed" a certain unit, I don't allow this but others who have end up on YouTube!

 

[khib70]

Pointing cameras is fine but ensure the flash is off please! Nothing worse than coming up to buffer stops with a flash going off. I have had spotters asking to enter my cab to video it and say they have "cabbed" a certain unit, I don't allow this but others who have end up on YouTube!

Interesting point, this. I'm amazed how many "cabride" videos are available on YouTube (although there seem to be more from abroad than the UK). Some of them even involve a running conversation with the driver. How are these obtained, given the (correctly) very strict rules about who and what can go in a driving cab?

Some, especially the more scenic routes, are enjoyable and strangely relaxing to watch, but surely rules must have been broken to obtain them in some cases.

 

[455driver]

They are probably officially filmed cab ride videos which are used to give drivers a rough idea about the route, they can also be used to check a drivers knowledge of landmarks quickly.

I recently watched one from Exeter to Plymouth and the first train I passed was a Cross Country 47, they agreed it needed updating somewhat.

 

[khib70]

They are probably officially filmed cab ride videos which are used to give drivers a rough idea about the route, they can also be used to check a drivers knowledge of landmarks quickly.

I recently watched one from Exeter to Plymouth and the first train I passed was a Cross Country 47, they agreed it needed updating somewhat.

True, and those are interesting because of all the signals and junctions etc. Most of the foreign ones, though, seem to be made by either enthusiasts, or staff members with legitimate cab access. There's a guy called "fuhrerstand" who seems to have covered most of the Austrian network, and made some stunning videos.

And there are a number of UK ones where a guy discusses the route with either the driver or another person in the cab from end to end. Many of these are by a guy called "RailwayManiac" and come from all over the UK.

 

[Monkey Magic]

There was a time in the 50s when collecting the autographs of top-link drivers was not uncommon!

To be fair there wasn't a lot else to do in the 1950s.

Apparently, the Midland used to have a slot on the cabside for the driver to place a tablet with their name on it so you knew the name of your driver. And you kind of get the sense reading old books that there was a 'cult of the driver' back then. So it might be a bit of a legacy from that.

On the subject of 'interest in your job'. I work in academia, and there are some people for whom their whole lives revolves around the subject they work on, it is impossible to have a 'normal' conversation with them, then there are others who have no interest in talking about the things they work on (which is a bit difficult since we are supposed to be in the job of disseminating knowledge).

There are also some who hate all students, which seems to me to be a bit self-defeating - why go and work in a university if you hate students?

This actually takes me to a reversal of the original question - why do people who hate passengers work on the railways in customer facing jobs? There are some people I've seen posting here and watching staff at various stations, and I really do wonder if dealing with people is the right job for them. It seems that the only bit of pleasure they get is from being an arse to customers.

RPI makes sense - the job advert appears to be 'are you a knuckledragging semi-housetrained neanderthal?' if you tick yes then the job is yours.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

I suddenly have this image of the BTP having to install ropelines to keep back hordes of teenage girls who want Keith the Driver's autograph.

given the effect of that series on ch 5 about Stobart road ops ... or some of the Policing series ...

 

[DownSouth]

To be fair there wasn't a lot else to do in the 1950s.

Hence the baby boom

Apparently, the Midland used to have a slot on the cabside for the driver to place a tablet with their name on it so you knew the name of your driver.

Still happens in Japan, where train drivers have earned themselves a place in society roughly equivalent to an A380 captain.

And you kind of get the sense reading old books that there was a 'cult of the driver' back then. So it might be a bit of a legacy from that.

You still see that from some of the members on this forum, you can tell the older ones because they capitalise Driver whenever they write it.

 

[richieb1971]

Back in the day you could get a cab ride shot from the front seating position on some units.

I would imagine the people getting these videos in the UK are either the drivers themselves or rail enthusiasts related to drivers.

 

[TheNewNo2]

I got a "cab ride" on the Stourbridge Town branch once, although with 139s "cab" is a bit of a misnomer, the driver simply noticed me taking photos and asked if I wanted the seat beside his. A very nice gesture.

 

[Monkey Magic]

I saw a good example of spotters behaving like idiots today and treating staff like morons.

So RTT said that there was a freight train due through our station, something which is unusual during the day. As I wasn't doing anything I mooched down to see what it was.

I got there and there were a couple of guys there waiting for it. Video camera in hand. An older guy and a younger guy.

Anyway, the train was due on the up line so they were on the down platform standing close to the edge of the platform.

A track worker quite politely advises them to stand back as the trains will come from behind them.

Spotters: 'We know'

'There's no train for two hours'

Worker: 'There are unscheduled trains like engineering trains'

Spotters: 'We've got the freight timetable'

Worker: 'They run late, there was someone hit by a train last week at [I forget the station he said]'

Spotters: [getting aggressive now] 'We know what we are doing. There are no trains coming this way.'

and so it went on.

It was clear that the spotters thought that they knew best and talked down to the trackworker. The trackworker was certainly not being arsey. He was doing what I think was reasonable - ie asking them to be careful. [I am sure that if someone were to get hit there would be tons of complaints about why didn't staff say anything].

So what I don't get is why some spotters think that i) they know it all and ii) they are superior to others (workers, users, etc). Is this a function of the autism/poor social skills? Why do they feel that they are entitled to behave differently to everyone else?