Uniforms - formal vs. informal?

[PudseyBearHST]

Guys, come off it. It is simply not a good look.

In my former professional life, nobody wore short sleeved shirts, anyone who did would be embarrassed to do so.

I’ve been in a meeting with a magic circle law firm tax partner, embarrassingly wearing a short sleeved shirt, where the (Italian) client remarked “in my country, only bus drivers wear shirts like that”.

Professional looking people don’t wear shorts to work, and they most certainly don’t wear short sleeved shirts.

Fact!

I was on a PNB a while back in Preston with a short-sleeved shirt and ASLEF tie. I was walking in a park and someone approached me asking how Preston is like to live in as he was thinking about moving here. I said I wasn’t from the area and that I was a driver based at London. We talked for a couple of minutes and then he asked me, “So how’s life like on the buses” ...

 

[Bromley boy]

I was on a PNB a while back in Preston with a short-sleeved shirt and ASLEF tie. I was walking in a park and someone approached me asking how Preston is like to live in as he was thinking about moving here. I said I wasn’t from the area and that I was a driver based at London. We talked for a couple of minutes and then he asked me, “So how’s life like on the buses” ...

Assuming you’re Euston based. Preston is a long way north. How far do you guys sign?

 

[PudseyBearHST]

Assuming you’re Euston based. Preston is a long way north. How far do you guys sign?

Preston is as far North as we go. (Also Manchester, Chester and top links do Liverpool vice Chester).

 

[Bromley boy]

Preston is as far North as we go. (Also Manchester, Chester and top links do Liverpool vice Chester).

You guys are proper railwaymen.

I cannot wait to join you - albeit on a different mainline. Not long now...

 

[whhistle]

Do railway staff have to wash their own uniforms or is it done by their employer?

Yes, and you can claim some tax back for doing so.

For a customer facing role, I don't think a Polo shirt is smart enough, I think it needs to be a shirt and tie/scarf.
Look at the continent, that's what they wear and it looks professional, which a Polo shirt doesn't to me.

But look at some supermarkets... polo shirts all the way.
They don't seem to worry about professionalism meaning a shirt and tie.

I don't really like polo shirts, but I'm all for getting rid of ties.

The old Virgin uniform with jumpers seemed to be a good strike between casual but professional looking.

 

[whhistle]

But as a paying passenger, we have expectations that the staff should be professional and smartly dressed

But you can only speak for you.
I pay fares and wouldn't care if the person behind the glass was wearing jeans and a t-shirt. So long as I get what I have gone in for, I wouldn't think any less of the company.

If, as others have highlighted, the person was wearing ill fitting clothes (which uniforms tend to be!), food stains, sweat stains... that would be a different opinion of the company.

 

[whhistle]

A waistcoat should never be seen without a jacket.

Whereas I rarely wear a waistcoat with a jacket

I have seen ideas put forward for all back office staff to dispense with uniforms (reducing costs?).
So long as the staff are identifiable, I don't really care if they have a uniform or not.... al la clothes shops.
The problem with that, though, is there has to be a clear set of guidelines on what is acceptable or not, which I suspect is a reason behind having a uniform in the first place.

Strange though as during any disruption, if I see someone in plain clothes and a hi-viz, I'd tend to think they are someone in a bit more authority than someone wearing a uniform.

 

[Esker-pades]

It's interesting to look at how railways in other countries do uniforms. In France, the conductors and other on-board staff were uniforms (the conductors especially seem to have very strict policies). However, the drivers seem to turn up in pretty much whatever they want (t-shirt and shorts). I assume that they can't wear certain things, but it seems that the policy is very relaxed for drivers in France.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If, as others have highlighted, the person was wearing ill fitting clothes (which uniforms tend to be!), food stains, sweat stains... that would be a different opinion of the company.

This is very true - an ill-fitting and dirty formal uniform looks terrible, whereas a pair of decent jeans and a properly ironed polo shirt look fine. Schoolchildren have long been particularly good that this

 

[Llanigraham]

Professional looking people don’t wear shorts to work, and they most certainly don’t wear short sleeved shirts.

Fact!

No, not fact, but your opinion.
And professional men seem to cope in shorts and short sleeved shirts in Australia.

 

[DarloRich]

Professional looking people don’t wear shorts to work, and they most certainly don’t wear short sleeved shirts.

I don't wear short sleeved shirts because it looks like I am wearing some kind of gorilla suit underneath! I don't mind if people do AS LONG AS they do NOT wear a tie.

Whereas I rarely wear a waistcoat with a jacket

A crime against sartorial elegance. You will tell me you wear brown/tan shoes with black trousers next! God not the white socks. Please not the white socks!

I have seen ideas put forward for all back office staff to dispense with uniforms (reducing costs?).

I would happily come to work in jeans and a t shirt. It wouldn't make me any less professional or less able to discharge my duties. it might actually help by creating a less stuff and formal environment. I have a cupboard full of suits for when the occasion requires one.

I have had meetings with suppliers where they have come in suits and ties, branded work wear, company polo shirts or branded company logo shirts. My view is they can come in speedos if they sort out the issues under discussion and deliver on time! Does a nice tie help my item get delivered on time and on budget?

 

[AndrewP]

The fact that there is another thread on uniforms shows what an emotive subject it is and also how much is down to personal taste.

I have specified uniforms many times and my priorities are always as follows:

1. Safe
2. Comfortable
3. Aligned with the role
4. Aligned with the corporate image
5. Have sufficient branding so there is no tax implication for the recipient
6. Offers reasonable value

I get frustrated when suppliers over cheapen as a poly cotton shirt is little more expensive than a polyester one and good shoes are so important for staff wellbeing and productivity.

My normal business wear is a suit with hankie in the top pocket, double cuffed shirt, tie and polished black churches but I would never impose this on anyone else and always ask a client what the dress code is before starting a contract as being over dressed is as bad as being too casual

 

[Indigo Soup]

It's interesting to look at how railways in other countries do uniforms. In France, the conductors and other on-board staff were uniforms (the conductors especially seem to have very strict policies). However, the drivers seem to turn up in pretty much whatever they want (t-shirt and shorts). I assume that they can't wear certain things, but it seems that the policy is very relaxed for drivers in France.

This all seems very reasonable to me - if you deal with customers, you dress in a way that corresponds with how the company wishes to be seen by its' customers.

That could mean jacket and tie, if the company wants to be perceived as a 'business' environment - as with reception staff at higher-end hotels, or airline cabin crew - or it could mean jeans, polo shirts and fleeces if the company wants to be seen as casual and relaxed. None of that needs to be supplied as uniform, witness any number of 'high street' clothing shops which convey a brand image quite effectively despite all the staff being dressed completely differently - but mostly with the company's products.

If you don't deal with customers, as far as I'm concerned you can show up wearing pretty much anything, provided that it isn't indecent or unsafe.

 

[GrimShady]

From this thread:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...roduction-updates.128808/page-67#post-4089689

With regard to polo shirts and shorts, I have no issue with a neat polo with a small, discreet logo and tailored shorts. However, there's something about the specific design and colour of the Northern uniforms that makes them look incredibly cheap and unprofessional.

What do others think?

Agreed. It looks bloody awful. Reminds me of something staff at a leasure center would wear.

 

[Bantamzen]

This all seems very reasonable to me - if you deal with customers, you dress in a way that corresponds with how the company wishes to be seen by its' customers.

That could mean jacket and tie, if the company wants to be perceived as a 'business' environment - as with reception staff at higher-end hotels, or airline cabin crew - or it could mean jeans, polo shirts and fleeces if the company wants to be seen as casual and relaxed. None of that needs to be supplied as uniform, witness any number of 'high street' clothing shops which convey a brand image quite effectively despite all the staff being dressed completely differently - but mostly with the company's products.

If you don't deal with customers, as far as I'm concerned you can show up wearing pretty much anything, provided that it isn't indecent or unsafe.

I've never really understood this "business environment", at least not in the context of 21st century living. Yes once upon a time the "professionals" were always perceived as the people in the suit and tie, the bank manager, the doctor, the civil servant. And certainly this perception lives on in certain business circles. However public perceptions have changed dramatically. A lot of people no longer treat someone in a suit with more respect and / or reverence than someone in a causal top & jeans. Indeed there are increasing situations involving public interaction were customers & companies see a dress code as more of a hinderance.

As I and others have said, it is increasingly no longer how you look in your job but how you do it. Its not true for everyone of course, as this thread clearly demonstrates, but as always happens from generation to generation perceptions change.

 

[bionic]

I refuse to wear a tie out of principal. Not for weddings, funerals, work or anything else. I'll wear a suit with no tie if I want to look smart but I don't do the tie thing. If anyone has a problem with that then it's their problem, not mine. Fashion nazis are a bore. People should be allowed to dress how they want if they are buying their own clothes, and if it's for work it needs to be functional. Ties serve no function and are superfluous to any uniform in any job.

 

[DarloRich]

I'll wear a suit with no tie if I want to look smart but I don't do the tie thing. If anyone has a problem with that then it's their problem, not mine

You might have an issue in some formal settings. I rarely wear a tie these days but there are times when one is mandatory. I wouldn't go to court without a tie for instance. Of course, you may luckily never be in a position of attending such an occasion!

 

[bionic]

Only court I've ever been to is a coroner's court and I didnt wear a tie to that. Nothing was said about it and I didnt feel under dressed. Maybe if I was in the dock I'd waive my self imposed tie ban!

 

[Highlandspring]

The only good thing Iain Coucher ever did when he was Chief Executive of Network Rail was to move the company culture to one where ties are optional rather than mandatory for formal wear.

 

[Indigo Soup]

I've never really understood this "business environment", at least not in the context of 21st century living. Yes once upon a time the "professionals" were always perceived as the people in the suit and tie, the bank manager, the doctor, the civil servant. And certainly this perception lives on in certain business circles. However public perceptions have changed dramatically. A lot of people no longer treat someone in a suit with more respect and / or reverence than someone in a causal top & jeans. Indeed there are increasing situations involving public interaction were customers & companies see a dress code as more of a hinderance.

It actually seems to be a bit of a legacy thing, where - outside of a few workplaces that are quite stuffy - the 'professionals' no longer expect to wear suit and tie. The people who do dress like that are in service industries trying to cater to the professional market. Things are changing, I've noticed more and more hotel staff wearing chinos, jacket and open collar rather than a suit and tie, but of course business dress has moved on so even that is on the more formal end now!

 

[Bletchleyite]

My view is they can come in speedos if they sort out the issues under discussion and deliver on time!

You had a meeting with a certain graphic designer who tends to work in the transport industry, then?

(To be fair, he very clearly demonstrates that - he's so good at what he does that his quirky dress sense is glossed over)

 

[cactustwirly]

I've never really understood this "business environment", at least not in the context of 21st century living. Yes once upon a time the "professionals" were always perceived as the people in the suit and tie, the bank manager, the doctor, the civil servant. And certainly this perception lives on in certain business circles. However public perceptions have changed dramatically. A lot of people no longer treat someone in a suit with more respect and / or reverence than someone in a causal top & jeans. Indeed there are increasing situations involving public interaction were customers & companies see a dress code as more of a hinderance.

As I and others have said, it is increasingly no longer how you look in your job but how you do it. Its not true for everyone of course, as this thread clearly demonstrates, but as always happens from generation to generation perceptions change.

That may be the case Oop north, but where I live, that really isn't the case at all!

A top and jeans looks really unprofessional, especially for a customer facing role, it really gives a bad impression of the company.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That may be the case Oop north, but where I live, that really isn't the case at all!

A top and jeans looks really unprofessional, especially for a customer facing role, it really gives a bad impression of the company.

I get a bad impression of a company if the clothing is worn badly - ill-fitting or dirty - or if the service is bad. I don't get a bad impression just because of the clothing itself, unless it was something really scruffy like a pair of jogging bottoms.

FWIW, I have observed that Northern traincrew do seem to be the most likely to wear the old formal uniforms badly, so perhaps the new informal uniforms are better. They're just a nasty colour - if they had gone for navy blue with black trousers and a discreet (rather than huge) embroidered breast logo they would have looked great.

Similarly for the soft-shell tops, the old LM ones which were dark grey with green piping looked great (and again a small logo). The new LNR ones with much more mint green are nowhere near as nice. So for Northern I'd have gone with dark grey with blue piping, and a small "unhappy-N-in-circle" at breast level.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So an image of some Northern crews modelling the uniform I found (though not showing the polo shirt or softshell):

Ill-fitting and poor colour choices for the lot of them. The one on the right is particularly bad - the jumper looks like it is an Asda Value product, and the one in the middle looks like a Girl Guide (who themselves have a ridiculous uniform which looks like they work for Domino's Pizza or a cleaning firm). The second one from the left looks like a generic insurance office worker.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In all seriousness this:

2 rugby players in navy blue polo shirts and shorts stood next to a Class 158

...looks far, far neater than the actual uniforms to me. Perhaps lose the shorts and replace with black trousers and shoes and you'd be pretty much there.

 

[DarloRich]

2 rugby players in navy blue polo shirts and shorts stood next to a Class 158

they are not people who do shifts and live on poor food

 

[Facing Back]

That may be the case Oop north, but where I live, that really isn't the case at all!

A top and jeans looks really unprofessional, especially for a customer facing role, it really gives a bad impression of the company.

Not relevant to TOC staff but firms such as web designers seem to consider jeans and a top as their uniform. Of course many of spend more on a pair of jeans than on a cheap suit.

 

[Facing Back]

I refuse to wear a tie out of principal. Not for weddings, funerals, work or anything else. I'll wear a suit with no tie if I want to look smart but I don't do the tie thing. If anyone has a problem with that then it's their problem, not mine. Fashion nazis are a bore. People should be allowed to dress how they want if they are buying their own clothes, and if it's for work it needs to be functional. Ties serve no function and are superfluous to any uniform in any job.

If the bride or the family of the deceased wanted me to wear a tie then I would wear a tie.

 

[Bantamzen]

That may be the case Oop north, but where I live, that really isn't the case at all!

A top and jeans looks really unprofessional, especially for a customer facing role, it really gives a bad impression of the company.

Looking professional is no longer enough, it doesn't matter what you wear so long as you do the job you are given well. This notion that dressing formally makes you more professional is an antiquated concept best left back in the middle of last century, maybe even the one before. Looking down at someone doing their job of their attire is downright snobby and rude, and completely outdated.

 

[bionic]

If the bride or the family of the deceased wanted me to wear a tie then I would wear a tie.

If I'd just lost a loved one I wouldn't give a monkeys how people came dressed to their funeral. If you've just lost a loved one and you are worried about how other people choose to dress then your priorities are all wrong.

A funeral should be a celebration of someone's life. People should come dressed to have a good time. All that black tie, shoe-gazing stuff is pathetic and I refuse to submit to it. When I kick the bucket I don't want a load of stuffy punters sitting around moping, I want them to have a massive party, a good drink, a dance and laugh.