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Unsigned Railcards

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maniacmartin

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I was talking to a friend last night who relayed an incident he'd recently witnessed on a train. I didn't witness this first-hand, so can't provide more details than below.

A passenger had a Y-P-discounted ticket, and an in-date railcard with matching photo. However the railcard wasn't signed, and the guard/TM said that as railcards state that they aren't valid unless signed, the railcard wasn't valid and thus neither was the railcard-discounted ticket.

The passenger was charged the full walk-up fare for a new ticket for their journey. This strikes me as a bit draconian - I would have expected that a guard would be happy to let the passenger sign the railcard there and then.

What is the policy when a guard encounters an unsigned railcard?

Also, is there any specific reason why Y-P railcards require a signature in the first place?
 
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dmacw

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I see it everyday, and quite frankly I would need a new pen everyday if I made them sign it.
 

tony_mac

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Also, is there any specific reason why Y-P railcards require a signature in the first place?
Allegedly to show that you agree to the terms and conditions.
Which is obviously nonsense, as you do that when you hand the money over - they don't ask you to sign every time you buy a ticket, do they?

But, it's now a third-hand story, and could easily have lost something along the line...
 

bb21

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I have been in that situation before, twice in fact, and on both occasions the guard just told me not to forget to sign the Railcard and moved on.

Charging a new ticket is definitely OTT imo.
 

323235

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I bought a sharpie recently to sign my plastic replacement that I got a couple of months ago.

Only ever had one TPE guard check my old online railcard and make me sign it on the spot.
 

ian959

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Whilst the guard/TM was technically correct, this is definitely a case of being way over the top by charging the passenger for a new ticket. Just remind the passenger to sign the card otherwise next time he might not be so lucky and move on.
 

Ivo

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I have been in that situation before, twice in fact, and on both occasions the guard just told me not to forget to sign the Railcard and moved on.

Charging a new ticket is definitely OTT imo (and then some?).

I've had exactly the same experience before now, and not only with my Railcard either. A gentle reminder is all it needs.
 

185

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Only ever had one TPE guard check my old online railcard and make me sign it on the spot.

I'd never pull people over unsigned railcards.

To be frank, those guards concentrating on things like that usually miss the more important things fundamental to checking tickets, like validity, date, route, even fraudulent home-made tickets, or those playing pass the parcel with tickets under the table.
 

mullin

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I have owned at least 7 railcards, all purchased from various stations around NW England (now have a 3 year one lasting me past the 25 age limit) and never knew till about 2 years ago it was a requirement to sign them. Never once when purchasing from an office had I been told to sign it :/

Ended up making a journey quite some way from home (Southampton to Bristol maybe) and the conductor in passing told me it had to be signed to be valid. Once purchased it sits in my wallet and the only time I ever look at it, it's to see the expiry date - not the signature
 

Temple Meads

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My railcard is signed ( :P ), however punishing passengers for this oversight definitely seems heavy handed, although it should be pointed out of course.
 

cuccir

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Seems very over the top, but as has been pointed out there may have been something else going on or more to the story that was apparent in witnessing it...
 

Draconian

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I was talking to a friend last night who relayed an incident he'd recently witnessed on a train. I didn't witness this first-hand, so can't provide more details than below.

A passenger had a Y-P-discounted ticket, and an in-date railcard with matching photo. However the railcard wasn't signed, and the guard/TM said that as railcards state that they aren't valid unless signed, the railcard wasn't valid and thus neither was the railcard-discounted ticket.

The passenger was charged the full walk-up fare for a new ticket for their journey. This strikes me as a bit draconian - I would have expected that a guard would be happy to let the passenger sign the railcard there and then.

What is the policy when a guard encounters an unsigned railcard?

Also, is there any specific reason why Y-P railcards require a signature in the first place?

Does seem a little harsh but a signature does help in trying to establish the rightful owner/user on occasions.
 

Idiotic

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There is one OBM on Southeastern Highspeed that always checks if you have signed your railcard. When the journey starts he does his announcements and then always say if you are using a railcard / pass you must make sure it is signed otherwise it will not be valid. I have the online railcard and he makes me take it out of my wallet and check the back of it. He gave me a sharpie as my signature had faded and could barely see it which I thought was decent. Love this guys announcements aswell! Very well spoken and announces all of Londons connections incl. Eurostar at 11pm! haha.
 

AlexS

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Whenever I used to buy a railcard, as far as I remember I always signed it at the point of purchase - that said I usually bought it from the (excellent) travel centre at Wolverhampton.
 

radamfi

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I presume this event didn't occur on FCC. If it did, the railcard and ticket would have been withdrawn and the passenger would have been reported for prosecution.
 

Flamingo

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Sounds so OTT I would have difficulty believing that was all there was to the story (or the person didn't get a full refund from Customer Services).

I don't know anybody (well, ok, I know one who might, but even by his standards it would be OTT) be that obsessive.
 

Rich McLean

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With the forces railcard, my HR section (PSF) issues it and they make sure you sign it there and then. At Brize, we also have our own travel cell, which can print off train tickets from our very own machine.
 

coupwotcoup

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Going slightly off tack, I recently purchased an old gits card.
Yet to sign it and only my surname appears on it.
As my passport is my only proof of age - don't do cars - one presumes I
have to cart that around every time I use said ticket?
 

maniacmartin

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There is no obligation to carry around proof of age. The only possible time you might need to show proof of age is when originally purchasing the railcard
 

trentside

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It seems very heavy handed to charge for a new ticket and not just ask the passenger to sign the back of the card.

Whenever I issue a railcard I'll always inform the person purchasing it that the card needs to be signed before use. If they're travelling immediately, I'll give them a pen to sign it - if not, I'll tell them it needs to be done before use. I must admit, I don't usually check whether cards are signed - just that they're in date.
 

317666

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I recently got an online-issued Y-P railcard, but have no idea where you're meant to sign it. The white strip on the back, or above the orange line on the front?

On an interesting enough note, they also seem to have given me a free extra week. My old Railcard, a one-year station-issued one, ran out today. I bought a three-year one online and that has an expiry date of 22/03/16, which is three years and a week away rather than three years!
 
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RJ

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Ah! I've had this one on board an East Midlands Trains service in January this year - the RPI involved couldn't have been any nicer about it :D

After failing to get me to concede to the misconception that I was off route on my Rugeley TV - Rice Lane Off Peak ticket, he asked to see my railcard, turned it around and withdrew it on the basis that it wasn't signed. He also withdrew the ticket and stated he would be charging me for a new Anytime Single for £77.00 from St Pancras to the next stop, Leicester.

The RPI was on a hiding to nowhere because the ticket was valid and the railcard was signed - I did so when I got it 2.5 years before and although fading, perfectly readable in average lighting conditions. I was sitting in the tipup seat in the vestibule where there lighting was lower.

The thing is, when desperation reaches this level, the RPI is actually relinquishing their authority, rather than asserting it. At which point it's not difficult to turn the situation around, especially if you have the ability to emulate the mindset of people like that. I entertained his power trip for a good 30 minutes by being polite and explaining why my ticket was valid, but I got bored with this, so decided to play him at his own game. I did offer to pay for a new ticket and in return, he gave my railcard back and a pen to sign it with.

The RPI in question is the most patronising person I've ever met and has directly belittled me a number of times "I've been in the industry for 20 years, you for only one so I think I know a little bit more than you." He likes to bang on about how many years experience he has in the job - so I directly called him out on why he had ignored multiple briefs issued more recently than 20 years ago, ordering him and his colleages not to challenge me. I then outright accused him of being a liar, because despite having been in the job for 20 years and attending court during the course of his duties, he swore blind he didn't know any of the people I named from the prosecution department or HQ. He also made a reference to my physical appearance and claimed he was intimidated by me because of my size - despite me being seated in the tip up seat and him, almost 6ft tall, towering over me throughout the exchange. The guy was pulling out every trick in the book to try and wind me up - but contrary to his opinion, I wasn't born yesterday :D. He probably didn't realise that I've already built up a reputation for being very polite with his colleagues, despite the conflictory nature of the exchanges. There is no mileage whatsoever in trying to provoke an aggressive response out of me.

I offered to pay for a new ticket, tendering several different methods of payment including 20p worth of coppers, £1.30 worth of 5ps and a £25 Rail Travel Voucher - but told him in no uncertain terms that if he did not process the Traveller's Cheque correctly, in front of me, I'd cancel it, ring up his accounting department to let them know why, inform the prosections department as he would likely submit a report and lodge a formal complaint against him to some of those people he claimed he's never heard of.

Guess what? He passed the ticket as valid and took down the details so the validity could be investigated. So after the best part of one hour, he didn't get a penny out of me and ended up doing what the brief instructed! It was unfortunate that it had to come to all that before he realised why insubordiation in favour of the glory grip is not a good idea.

In my eyes, there's doing a job, then there is being desperate to the point where all sense of judgement goes out of the droplight. From working as a ticket inspector and alongside them, it's usually the latter that have a much harder time at work. If a paying customer has a plastic photo railcard which isn't signed - use some common sense and get them to sign it! Why bully people into coughing up more money when it's completely unnecessary?
 
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Be3G

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Some people in this thread are suggesting that the railcard story is too implausible to be true (and I agree it's wise to be cautious about any one-sided stories). However, I can just about see this really being true. I've bought quite a lot of railcards over the years (a combination of Network/Network Partner/16–25) and the majority of times I've not been told to sign them when purchasing. That in turn led to an incident once when I was buying some tickets from the Waterloo travel centre, and a very grumpy ticket clerk, as well as barking orders at the waiting queue to stand precisely behind the stanchions as not doing so was a “health and safety issue” (yeah, right), also told me off for having an unsigned railcard as it wasn't valid. I could quite easily imagine him, if he'd been working as a guard in the mood he was in, throwing the book at someone on a train.

Incidentally, because I had a lot of different tickets to buy, I was in the habit of printing off a little list to make the clerk's life easier. He snidely accused me of teaching a grandmother to suck eggs (yes, he used that phrase) which really incensed me. Alas it was only later that I kicked myself for not retorting with “and you shouldn't bite the hand that feeds you”.
 

Yew

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Just wondering, but where does it state a railcard is not valid unless signed?
 

maniacmartin

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Just wondering, but where does it state a railcard is not valid unless signed?

On the plastic ones it's in bold and capitals at the top of the back of the card, above the white band where you can write.
 

Crossover

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Just looking from another viewpoint, there is the same clause with debit/credit cards, that they are not valid if not signed. In these cases, a shop or such tendering such payment method, should not allow you to sign the card in front of them, as you could use the same signature on a receipt (yes, less normal now with Chip and PIN, but still happens a bit in the UK and seemingly a lot in foreign countries) and they wouldn't be able to know it was your card, as naturally, the signatures would match.

Could some RPI's take a similar approach (rightly, or wrongly, I don't know) with unsigned railcards?
 
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