Untold truths-Great Train Robbery

[ChiefPlanner]

That diagram doesn’t tie in with the purported method of stopping the train, which I’m given to understand was a glove placed over the lamp for the green aspect and a battery connected to the lamp for the red aspect in a colour light signal head..? Though I’ve always been confused about how this was achieved as it seems to raise more questions than it answers. It would be fascinating to read a proper report of exactly what happened on the railway, how and when.

Doing some digging into this (on the internet of course) , this PM (weather miserable but worse in your parish - presumably in Scotland ! ) , subject to getting hold of some old hands in the BY area , but it looks as it there was an IBS section between LB no 1 SB and Sears Crossing. They supposedly "fixed" 2 signals on the IBS section by (as we know) fixing a yellow and a red. Using only simple battery lights.

Now 1M44 passed LB at 0300 and was stopped at Sears Crossing at 0303 , and the robbery was reported by the signalman at Cheddington at 0424 to the Control Office and Scotland Yard ! - the movement of the train portion and unloading took in excess of 30 mins.

So what was going on in those signal boxes ? - and cutting of the SPT lines would surely have been noted by the signalman at Sears Xing. Or not. I mentioned earlier the standard signalling instructions for trains in section - and what was the role of the guard in all this , with his vacuum brake gauge at zero and a stand on a class 1 train (Prime Royal Mail Train) in the middle of the fields ..?

There are a lot of questions to be asked here , but a quick search of the Kew archives (BR Section) , shows about 500 pages of reports "embargoed"

There must have been some serious panic afterwards in both Euston and the BRB ...we know Gerry Fiennes was involved as there are some references in his (enjoyable) books.

 

[RichA]

The Nene Valley museum group published a very detailed account in a book in 1998. It is very detailed in how the signalling worked, how it was tampered with to stop the train and the location of track circuits that gave the initial impression to the signalman that the divided train was a track circuit failure. The S&T staff that attended wrote a signal failure report that is reproduced along with lots of other reports, maps and names of all the signalmen, train crews and others involved. Not sure if the book is still available ?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

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The Nene Valley museum group published a very detailed account in a book in 1998. It is very detailed in how the signalling worked, how it was tampered with to stop the train and the location of track circuits that gave the initial impression to the signalman that the divided train was a track circuit failure. The S&T staff that attended wrote a signal failure report that is reproduced along with lots of other reports, maps and names of all the signalmen, train crews and others involved. Not sure if the book is still available ?

That is a very valuable contribution. I am only on the margins of all this research - but this is fascinating stuff. Well done , and thank you. Hope the retired D/S is taking all this in !

 

[Highlandspring]

Very interesting indeed!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Very interesting indeed!

Good Scottish connections of course . IM44 left GC with 5 on , attached 4 at Carstairs (ex Aberdeen) , further 3 attached at Carlisle. …..

 

[Cowley]

Absolutely fascinating. I feel like I understand a bit more about it now.
Chief Planner - You mentioned in an earlier post that a goods train may have passed the stricken mail train. I don't remember ever hearing that before. It can't have been travelling particularly fast, if that happened would they have noticed the stationary divided train do you know?

 

[RichA]

The aforementioned book says that after Guard Miller had placed detonator protection he walked forward towards the front portion of the train, when he reached it he found the driver and secondman handcuffed together sat on mail bags in the (then) rear coach. As all the signal post telephones had been cut he set of on foot towards Cheddington and after about half a mile saw a train approaching on the down slow line, this was the 01.15 freight from Norwood junction, and he stopped it with a red signal from his hand lamp. He asked the driver to secure the locomotive on the stricken mail train as this was still running. He then continued walking towards Cheddington and again stopped a train on the Up slow line (1A65) and got a lift, this up train had already been asked to examine the line by the signalman at Leighton No.1 - the alarm was then raised by the signalman at Cheddington.

 

[Cowley]

The aforementioned book says that after Guard Miller had placed detonator protection he walked forward towards the front portion of the train, when he reached it he found the driver and secondman handcuffed together sat on mail bags in the (then) rear coach. As all the signal post telephones had been cut he set of on foot towards Cheddington and after about half a mile saw a train approaching on the down slow line, this was the 01.15 freight from Norwood junction, and he stopped it with a red signal from his hand lamp. He asked the driver to secure the locomotive on the stricken mail train as this was still running. He then continued walking towards Cheddington and again stopped a train on the Up slow line (1A65) and got a lift, this up train had already been asked to examine the line by the signalman at Leighton No.1 - the alarm was then raised by the signalman at Cheddington.

Thanks for that RichA.

 

[Highlandspring]

Good Scottish connections of course . IM44 left GC with 5 on , attached 4 at Carstairs (ex Aberdeen) , further 3 attached at Carlisle. …..

And of course there’s still a 1M44 Up Postal to this day, 1620 Shieldmuir - Dallam. I once worked with someone who always claimed to have worked with someone (so the proverbial ‘friend of a friend’) who was one of those loading the money onto the robbery train at Glasgow Central and as a result was questioned by Special Branch about it. A current colleague and is fond of telling how 1M44 was the only train dealt with at Glasgow Central box that was always given road all the way from platform 11 at the Central to the edge of the panel at Cambuslang to the cry of “Up Special, greens all the way!” from the Regulator.

 

[g.satchwell]

I think you mean Buster Edwards.

We certainly do sir.

 

[g.satchwell]

I am awaiting some information (if I can get it !) , on the absolute block signalling on the route , before the commissioning of the Bletchley Power Box (which controlled south of Tring to north of Hanslope Junction / north of MK in the real world , not the railway world !)

Sears Crossing was the box in question , and it may have had some basic track circuits (an indicator , not neccessarily a "red light" in the box)

One assumes the Up Postal would have been offered forward to S Xing from the north , accepted under the block instructions , train entering section given and "offered" forward to the next box (Tring ?) - standard signalling procedures.

If the train had not arrived - the controlling signalmen should have implemented the standard rule of "train unusually long time in section" , which means that another train wold have been stopped , cautioned to proceed slowly on another line , and report back if anything amiss was spotted (like a broken down train , or even a mail train robbery) - the nearest Station Master and Operations Supervisor wold have been called out for an incident like this , and they would not have been that far away - at the furthest Bletchley , though there was then an SM at Hemel.

If the communications and phone lines were cut , then another set of rules should have been applied , basically proceed ahead , at a very slow speed and look out for "trouble" / report back at the next open box. (or manned station) .

There ought to have been other trains around , in fact I am anecdotally told there was a goods train that passed the robbery.

There would of course be a very full internal railway enquiry into this , the question is , have the files been archived or destroyed. (or withheld due to extreme sensitivity) - they MIGHT be in Kew.

OK Well I wanted to know what info was out there ChiefPlanner before I said to much about the details I have. But there was an internal BR enquiry and I have a copy of the original papers sitting not five feet away. The bundle includes statements from both signalman, discussion on the down trains that came along etc. I will share all of that in due course, but for now I want to find sources that can corroborate what I have already, and more importantly add to it, rather than simply broadcast it all prematurely. I'm really looking forward to hearing anything you can pick up.

 

[Busaholic]

We certainly do sir.

My faulty memory: IIRC (now!) a Mr Reynolds was another member of the 'gang', possibly a rather more significant one?

 

[Killingworth]

View attachment 58536 View attachment 58538

The Nene Valley museum group published a very detailed account in a book in 1998. It is very detailed in how the signalling worked, how it was tampered with to stop the train and the location of track circuits that gave the initial impression to the signalman that the divided train was a track circuit failure. The S&T staff that attended wrote a signal failure report that is reproduced along with lots of other reports, maps and names of all the signalmen, train crews and others involved. Not sure if the book is still available ?

There are several copies of the book currently available on the second hand market with prices ranging from £10 to £133.64!!!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

OK Well I wanted to know what info was out there ChiefPlanner before I said to much about the details I have. But there was an internal BR enquiry and I have a copy of the original papers sitting not five feet away. The bundle includes statements from both signalman, discussion on the down trains that came along etc. I will share all of that in due course, but for now I want to find sources that can corroborate what I have already, and more importantly add to it, rather than simply broadcast it all prematurely. I'm really looking forward to hearing anything you can pick up.

This is truly an excellent thread ...may be difficult to get anything more these days.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Absolutely fascinating. I feel like I understand a bit more about it now.
Chief Planner - You mentioned in an earlier post that a goods train may have passed the stricken mail train. I don't remember ever hearing that before. It can't have been travelling particularly fast, if that happened would they have noticed the stationary divided train do you know?

This was a random comment from someone local , will try to explore further. If I can ….if it was a down freight , would hardly have been doing much more than 45 mph , if that....

 

[ChiefPlanner]

And of course there’s still a 1M44 Up Postal to this day, 1620 Shieldmuir - Dallam. I once worked with someone who always claimed to have worked with someone (so the proverbial ‘friend of a friend’) who was one of those loading the money onto the robbery train at Glasgow Central and as a result was questioned by Special Branch about it. A current colleague and is fond of telling how 1M44 was the only train dealt with at Glasgow Central box that was always given road all the way from platform 11 at the Central to the edge of the panel at Cambuslang to the cry of “Up Special, greens all the way!” from the Regulator.

I can imagine a meeting with the Special Branch , Scottish contingent or not , would be a life memorable experience...and as for the Regulator seeing the train off his patch PDQ , entirely appropriate.

Following the Sears Crossing incident , as a matter of some urgency , instructions were issued by the British Railways Board for urgent attention to the monitoring of these trains to all traffic locations - so that any delay would be attended to by local forces. Gerry Fiennes (mentioned again !) , had a few amusing points to make on it,

 

[Cowley]

My faulty memory: IIRC (now!) a Mr Reynolds was another member of the 'gang', possibly a rather more significant one?

Bruce Richard Reynolds was I believe the supposed 'mastermind' of the robbery.
Nick Denver wrote a folk song glorifying this rather unpleasant character called 'Have you seen Bruce Richard Reynolds'.
Reynolds son - Nick Reynolds is one of the members of the band Alabama 3, and they covered the song on one of their albums.
(Little bit of pointless trivia there)

 

[g.satchwell]

My faulty memory: IIRC (now!) a Mr Reynolds was another member of the 'gang', possibly a rather more significant one?

Well of course Bruce Reynolds was a gang member. I know he has claimed to be the leader, and many have accepted that version, but there is much to point in the opposite direction.

 

[g.satchwell]

Bruce Richard Reynolds was I believe the supposed 'mastermind' of the robbery.
Nick Denver wrote a folk song glorifying this rather unpleasant character called 'Have you seen Bruce Richard Reynolds'.
Reynolds son - Nick Reynolds is one of the members of the band Alabama 3, and they covered the song on one of their albums.
(Little bit of pointless trivia there)

Yes I entirely agree, Reynolds, despite the hype, was a violent and determined criminal. He did not mastermind the robbery, as the judge said at the trial, the mastermind had not been caught.

 

[g.satchwell]

This is truly an excellent thread ...may be difficult to get anything more these days.

Hi Chief' I thought it would be difficult to get anything fresh. But I have been so surprised by what still has to be said for the first time.
It seems that small false assertions made in the early 60's have grown into established truths. I am sure that there is much more to be discovered if we can just access the stories of those who were about at the time. We still have to arrange to share a cuppa?

 

[g.satchwell]

Getting back to the original question, I seem to remember that at the time and place of the robbery the re-signalling for the West Coast electrification was in progress but not yet complete. The absolute block signalling still in use at the time might have had track circuits in some places, that would illuminate a light on the signalman's panel if any part of the train was within a track circuit. But the line was not continuously track circuited so in general the signalman wouldn't know where the train was unless within sight of the signal box, and wouldn't necessarily know it was divided unless the front portion passed the signal box with no tail lamp on the rear.

The re-signalling provided continuous track circuiting, so the signalman would have know if the train had moved between sections which would typically be about 600 yards long. There would still be no indication of what the train was doing when within one of those sections.

There are some signal box diagrams online that would give more details of the signalling. If anyone can remember the name of the boxes then a search might find something.

Hi Edwin, I very much appreciate your interest, I do have the signal boxes' details, track layout, names of staff on duty.

 

[Cowley]

Yes I entirely agree, Reynolds, despite the hype, was a violent and determined criminal. He did not mastermind the robbery, as the judge said at the trial, the mastermind had not been caught.

Is that still the case then? I'm assuming the real people behind this then were high up untouchable members of the London underworld?
Much as I love Alabama 3 (I've seen them live a few times), I, and I'm sure pretty much everyone else on this forum can't stand the glorification of this bunch of criminals.
They were not cult heroes!

 

[g.satchwell]

That diagram doesn’t tie in with the purported method of stopping the train, which I’m given to understand was a glove placed over the lamp for the green aspect and a battery connected to the lamp for the red aspect in a colour light signal head..? Though I’ve always been confused about how this was achieved as it seems to raise more questions than it answers. It would be fascinating to read a proper report of exactly what happened on the railway, how and when.

Dear Highlandspring, you are right, it is fascinating. In due course I will provide a full description of what happened in reltion to stopping the train. Believe me, I have researched this very thoroughly, and yes, there are unanswered questions.

 

[g.satchwell]

Is that still the case then? I'm assuming the real people behind this then were high up untouchable members of the London underworld?
Much as I love Alabama 3 (I've seen them live a few times), I, and I'm sure pretty much everyone else on this forum can't stand the glorification of this bunch of criminals.
They were not cult heroes!

No, not cult heroes, but men who made a decision early in their lives to chase a dream of getting rich by any means whatsoever. I was the officer in charge of the case that put Tom Wisbey behind bars again in 1982. I got to know him reasonably well in 2014/2015
by then he had mellowed and was more reflective. A life of crime had NOT worked out for him.

 

[Cowley]

No, not cult heroes, but men who made a decision early in their lives to chase a dream of getting rich by any means whatsoever. I was the officer in charge of the case that put Tom Wisbey behind bars again in 1982. I got to know him reasonably well in 2014/2015
by then he had mellowed and was more reflective. A life of crime had NOT worked out for him.

I'm going to order your book tonight. I think it'll be right up my street.
I've got a good friend who's a retired Devon and Cornwall policeman and he's got so many interesting stories (of course it's the way you tell em as well, telling a story is an art form in itself).

 

[g.satchwell]

Hi Cowley, You are right. Writing a book is like telling a joke. In the wrong hands a terrific joke falls flat. Same with a book, a terrific story badly written is no fun at all. I've been flattered by the reception that the book got. Have a look at Amazon, about 40 reviews all 5 star and 4 star. Incredible for a left-handed, dyslexic old railway copper!

 

[neilmc]

An uncomfortable truth is that this audacious robbery would not have been possible without inside knowledge obtained from both the postal and railway industry. The robbers needed to find an isolated location not too far from London but with a signal gantry not visible from a signal box or station with which they could tamper. Then they needed to know the timings of the postal train and its likely loadings, the layout as to where the high value carriage was located and, critically, the fact that the carriage was one of a type which was not alarmed as was the norm (apparently the alarmed carriages were all unavailable that day). Having ascertained all that, they needed to be able to uncouple the train and drive the loco and high value carriage further down the line. It's known that at least one postal employee and an ex-railwayman were recruited, but the intricacies of a "modern" class 40 defeated the stand-in driver and they had to get the regular driver Jack Mills to do the deed.

I think much of the general public of the time, and ever since, had at least some of admiration for such an exploit and were shocked at the prison sentences handed out which were generally higher than those given for murder (only Jack Mills had been substantially injured) and clearly the judge had been leant upon because it was the Government's money which had been stolen, and the Government or its agents made to look foolish.

 

[Taunton]

I always felt the "fame" given to straightforward violent criminals was unwarranted.

It seems strange to have done all the messing about with signals when a couple of detonators on the track would have stopped the train in short order at the next signal.

The postal cars were in Post Office livery, bright red with Royal Mail branding, and made a stirring sight as they rolled into Taunton station in the middle of the night with the postal sorters working inside. It is written that they were repainted in normal carriage blue/grey because of the incident, but I recall them there in the red quite some years afterwards, into the mid/late 1960s.

When I was in Glasgow in the 1970s I used to complete letters for England a bit late, and take them down to the train ready to start, and use the special mailbox on the side of the postal car, with the extra 1p stamp. Being just a part train at that stage it was in the short bay at Central station that began halfway down the station. Nobody else ever did, and half an hour before departure the train seemed to be standing there quite deserted, no security, and you could actually drive up the ramp and onto the platform alongside unchallenged.

 

[whhistle]

I wonder if crime in those days just didn't happen like that?
Not to that big a standard any way?

But I highly doubt the gang would have known about track circuits and such. The low tech solution of the glove and battery seemed to work. I wonder if the bulb was taken out, whether some sort of failure would have shown on the panel in the signal box?

 

[Highlandspring]

Removing any signal lamp would indicate a failure in the signalbox. I received my secondhand copy of Hold-Up At Sears Crossing yesterday - thanks to this thread for the tip off about it - and it’s really fascinating. It notes that the IB Distant signal was also ‘fixed’ to display a yellow aspect but that the gang member who was responsible either panicked or did not follow instructions and so removed the green lamp, causing the lamp failure indication to sound in the signalbox. That was one of the first clues that something was kicking off...