Vaccine passports or masks?

[HSTEd]

All working from home does is reduce the economic impact of lockdowns - which inevitably leads to more of them.

 

[Bantamzen]

Much as I disagree with much of what Drakeford does/says in Wales, one thing I agree with is the Welsh govt encouraging people to be allowed to work from home longer term so long as (a) they can do their job from home and (b)) they want to do so.

When we look at the amount of investment needed for transport peak commuter flows, there's a strong argument for instead supporting things that reduce that demand- e.g. provision of fast broadband and new houses built with WFH in mind- as that is much lower cost than building transport infrastructure AND can result in improved quality of family life. Why shouldn't WFH carry on where it's been effective?

I recognise that many jobs cannot be done from home, but if those who could and wanted to work from home did so, it would ease the commuting crowding/stress on those who have no choice.... so everyone wins.

At the very least we should be separating out the WFH issue from the COVID issue and encouraging a mature conversation with managers/workplaces who had an old-fashioned attachment to "presenteeism."

TPO

Everyone doesn't win though. Fewer people travelling to work means less business for those companies providing services and goods for the commuter market, which will mean fewer jobs for those people not working from home as well as a reduction in tax revenue. And of course fewer people using public means that in time there will be need for fewer buses and trains, meaning fewer jobs for current staff.

 

[takno]

Much as I disagree with much of what Drakeford does/says in Wales, one thing I agree with is the Welsh govt encouraging people to be allowed to work from home longer term so long as (a) they can do their job from home and (b)) they want to do so.

When we look at the amount of investment needed for transport peak commuter flows, there's a strong argument for instead supporting things that reduce that demand- e.g. provision of fast broadband and new houses built with WFH in mind- as that is much lower cost than building transport infrastructure AND can result in improved quality of family life. Why shouldn't WFH carry on where it's been effective?

I recognise that many jobs cannot be done from home, but if those who could and wanted to work from home did so, it would ease the commuting crowding/stress on those who have no choice.... so everyone wins.

At the very least we should be separating out the WFH issue from the COVID issue and encouraging a mature conversation with managers/workplaces who had an old-fashioned attachment to "presenteeism."

TPO

All the suggestions I've seen are that working from home is bad for the environment, because people need a larger living space, which causes urban sprawl, and because instead of heating and lighting some overcrowded offices, you are heating and lighting thousands of houses all day instead. There's even been a huge uptake in domestic aircon, which might get installed to make working more comfortable, but will just end up running 24/7 once it's there.

Compared to that, running a few more trains and buses is really quite manageable.

 

[island]

I've just watched last night's Question Time. 100% of the panel and audience in favour of compulsory mask wearing. 100% of the panel and audience not wearing masks.

This is pretty amusing.

 

[greyman42]

I've just watched last night's Question Time. 100% of the panel and audience in favour of compulsory mask wearing. 100% of the panel and audience not wearing masks.

Did they have a vote on it?

 

[778]

Is this something we should be concerned about? I know I should not believe everything that is said on twitter, but this does seem a bit worrying if it is true.

https://twitter.com/Mark91870806/status/1455597094501294086?s=20

Just got back home from a few days working near London. Happened to have a chat with a well known MP. Asked for their thoughts on Boris's plan B and their reply was "it's already penned in for after Cop26" They just need the optics to look good.

 

[John Luxton]

Can I make a comment that the choice does not allow for a rejection of both options? I won't wear a mask and I reject vaccine passports. Both are repressive measures and against the spirit of freedom which Britain fought for in two World Wars. Any protection against Covid must be a personal choice based on a personal risk assessment made by the individual and not the state.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Is this something we should be concerned about? I know I should not believe everything that is said on twitter, but this does seem a bit worrying if it is true.

https://twitter.com/Mark91870806/status/1455597094501294086?s=20

Hard to say but those who want passports I hope they realise that their freedoms are at risk too if they miss a booster.

Now firmly of the belief that this was never about a minor respiratory virus with a 99% survival rate.

Can I make a comment that the choice does not allow for a rejection of both options? I won't wear a mask and I reject vaccine passports. Both are repressive measures and against the spirit of freedom which Britain fought for in two World Wars. Any protection against Covid must be a personal choice based on a personal risk assessment made by the individual and not the state.

I fully agree and I want the 2019 freedoms to return with no conditions of vaccines or what not, personally I’ve cut ties with anyone who supports prolonging this nonsense much longer.

 

[John Luxton]

I fully agree and I want the 2019 freedoms to return with no conditions of vaccines or what not, personally I’ve cut ties with anyone who supports prolonging this nonsense much longer.

Good! I had booked a cruise last year hoping we would be out of this by now. When it came to paying the balance and I realised the restrictions and requirements to be jabbed, I said no thank you and cancelled.

Will do likewise with any other organisation that tries to perpetuate this nonsense.

There is a UK/Ireland web site being supported by many businesses Against Vaccine Passports – For Our Children, Our Future And Our Freedom

 

[initiation]

I despise both measures and refuse to answer the poll.

Masks are on obvious visual symbol - I can mostly avoid wearing one myself, but still end up seeing faceless others. This probably impacts me more personally in day to day life.
Vaccine passports would probably have less direct impact on me (under 'plan B' venues at least) however they are crossing the rubicon for society and set a dangerous precedent (in my view).

 

[John Luxton]

I despise both measures and refuse to answer the poll.

Masks are on obvious visual symbol - I can mostly avoid wearing one myself, but still end up seeing faceless others. This probably impacts me more personally in day to day life.
Vaccine passports would probably have less direct impact on me (under 'plan B' venues at least) however they are crossing the rubicon for society and set a dangerous precedent (in my view).

Wales is has suggested passports for pubs / restaurant in less than three weeks if cases continue to rise.

If that happens England might follow if it goes plan B.

What bothers me is I have two days at Hotel in Wales booked for the end of this month.

If they require a VP where would I stand as meals are served in their restaurant and obviously I like to frequent the bar.

Would not like to fall out with the venue if they enforced this as I have been going for some years but fear it might come to that - unless they have a rebellious spirit.

 

[initiation]

if cases continue to rise.

Well thankfully 'cases' have been falling both in Wales and UK for the last 10+ days. Not that you would know that if you only listened to the MSM...

 

[Cowley]

Refuse to vote. Masks are an unpleasant waste of everybody's time and energy, while vaccine passports affect fewer people, buy are a completely unacceptable intrusion into normal life which needs to be treated as the authoritarian menace that it is

That would be my answer too.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Good! I had booked a cruise last year hoping we would be out of this by now. When it came to paying the balance and I realised the restrictions and requirements to be jabbed, I said no thank you and cancelled.

Will do likewise with any other organisation that tries to perpetuate this nonsense.

There is a UK/Ireland web site being supported by many businesses Against Vaccine Passports – For Our Children, Our Future And Our Freedom

It’s the together movement isn’t it? I’ve heard they’re gaining traction.

If passports become a reality in England then I will vote for the party that will abolish it, even if it’s Reform.

 

[danm14]

If they require a VP where would I stand as meals are served in their restaurant and obviously I like to frequent the bar.

Would not like to fall out with the venue if they enforced this as I have been going for some years but fear it might come to that - unless they have a rebellious spirit.

In Ireland, an exception from the requirement to show proof of vaccination for indoor dining applies to the facilities in a hotel you are staying in.

This applies even if the facilities are shared with the general public, and there are no additional restrictions imposed on unvaccinated hotel guests. They are free to access all facilities as if they were vaccinated.

Perhaps Wales may do something similar.

At least so far Wales has retained the ability to use a self-reported lateral flow test instead of vaccination being the only option - which while not as good as England or Northern Ireland (where there are no legal requirements) is better than Scotland and Ireland (where it is vaccination only).

 

[MikeWM]

It’s the together movement isn’t it? I’ve heard they’re gaining traction.

Not quite - that's the thing Anna Brees has set up, which is a directory of venues/traders that oppose vaccine passports. It's a good idea, and I intend to look there first now if I need some work done on the house, etc.

Together does seem to be doing better than I expected, though. Over 100,000 signatures at this point. You can sign up here if you haven't already.

If passports become a reality in England then I will vote for the party that will abolish it, even if it’s Reform.

Me too.

 

[John Luxton]

In Ireland, an exception from the requirement to show proof of vaccination for indoor dining applies to the facilities in a hotel you are staying in.

This applies even if the facilities are shared with the general public, and there are no additional restrictions imposed on unvaccinated hotel guests. They are free to access all facilities as if they were vaccinated.

Perhaps Wales may do something similar.

Thanks for the update on what is going on in Ireland - a place I sometimes visit - but obviously as with the Isle of Man they won't let you in without restrictions if you are unvaxed.

I am normally a very frequent visitor to the Isle of Man. One will have to see what happens next year if the TT and Grand Prix events are staged. Perhaps they may drop the requirement by then?

But as it stands looks like I may not be going there for another year.

To be honest though of all the countries in the British Isles the Isle of Man went over the top on restrictions. - No fines but 2 weeks in HMP Jurby.

Because it is such a small place the IOM Government's tyrannical actions were not really noticed in UK and they got away with it.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Not quite - that's the thing Anna Brees has set up, which is a directory of venues/traders that oppose vaccine passports. It's a good idea, and I intend to look there first now if I need some work done on the house, etc.

Together does seem to be doing better than I expected, though. Over 100,000 signatures at this point. You can sign up here if you haven't already.



Me too.

Thanks for the information I have already signed, I’ve shared it others too, surprises me how many are anti passports, both vaxxed and unvaxxed.

 

[Butts]

No problem with a Vaccination Passport if Masks disappear.

 

[NorthKent1989]

No problem with a Vaccination Passport if Masks disappear.

Why? At least one can be mask exempt, vaccine passports goes against our freedoms

 

[VauxhallandI]

I have used a Vaccine Passport once and guess what; I came down with Covid the next day so I had it the night I used the magic covid passport and took covid to the concert.

Utterly pointless.

 

[infobleep]

Neither!

But if I had to choose, I would choose anything but masks because standard masks are completely ineffective against aerosols as well as being highly symbolic.

Vaccine passports for domestic purposes would have health benefits but are disproportionate and very wrong, even though I strongly believe in the benefits of vaccination and would encourage everyone to get vaccinated. But forcing people into it is not acceptable. It is like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. We should instead be gently convincing people of the benefits of vaccination.

Are masks ineffective or is it the type of masks that many people wear in the UK that are ineffective?

In Germany, it is mandated in many places that you wear either an FFP2, N95 or KN95 mask. Cloth masks are not permitted in many places by law.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I have used a Vaccine Passport once and goes what; I came down with Covid the next day so I had it the night I used the magic covid passport and took covid to the concert.

Utterly pointless.

But … but … follow the science! (This would be said if I was pro passport/restrictions but I’m not)

 

[Cdd89]

In Germany, it is mandated in many places that you wear either an FFP2, N95 or KN95 mask

They are equally ineffective if not tightly sealed, which is quite unpleasant.

I saw someone a while back wearing a mask whose front was made out of solid plastic; that’s entirely useless as 100% of air will escape unfiltered through the sides.

 

[NorthKent1989]

A friend of mine went to the theatre yesterday where a test or vaccine proof were required, they didn’t do the test and they aren’t vaccinated, they simply rocked up at the theatre and guess what? None of the staff checked for proof of test or vaccine, they checked the bags only, and according to my friend from what they saw, very few of the attendees had their test results or vaccine proof on hand and their phones were in their pockets, the few that did were waved through.

This gave me hope that more and more people are done with covid and value freedom and shows how there must be other venues who think a passport is utter nonsense.

 

[danm14]

Thanks for the update on what is going on in Ireland - a place I sometimes visit - but obviously as with the Isle of Man they won't let you in without restrictions if you are unvaxed.

Of course, as it's part of the UK, you are free to travel to Northern Ireland without restriction or formality, regardless of vaccination status.

Once you have spent 14 days in Northern Ireland, you are free to cross the fully open border into the Republic of Ireland without restriction or formality, regardless of vaccination status.

I don't see any obvious loophole here. Oh no, definitely not.

 

[yorkie]

Are masks ineffective or is it the type of masks that many people wear in the UK that are ineffective?

Flimsy loose fitting masks are ineffective.

They are not designed to filter aerosol particles, which are now understood to be a key source of transmission (it was originally thought to be larger droplets responsible for transmission).

The aerosol particles which can carry virus particles are absolutely tiny; far smaller than the holes in standard masks and can pass through the masks themselves as well as through the gaps where masks are loosely worn.

In contrast, FFP3 masks, when worn correctly with a tight fit, were found to be pretty much 100% effective against transmission. FFP2 are not quite as good but not far off.

Standard masks are nothing more than a placebo; they are only good for virtue signalling purposes.

I recently travelled to a country that mandates (any old) mask be worn; I wore a cloth sports mask in order to comply with the law. The holes in these masks are even larger than standard masks. It's purely a box ticking exercise, required by people who are far left/authoritarian/hysteric.

In Germany, it is mandated in many places that you wear either an FFP2, N95 or KN95 mask. Cloth masks are not permitted in many places by law.

I thought it was only some places and that had since been relaxed?

 

[317666]

I thought it was only some places and that had since been relaxed?

The city of Berlin and the state of Bavaria. Bavaria were thinking about relaxing it a few months ago but I don't know whether it actually went ahead or not.

In the rest of Germany, cloth masks still aren't allowed on public transport but a surgical mask is deemed sufficient.

As far as the question posed in this thread is concerned - I think both are despicable so won't be voting.

 

[yorkie]

Bavaria appears to have relaxed the rules a couple of months ago:

Corona: What rules still apply in Munich and Bavaria

Where now the mask requirement applies and other rules

www.muenchen.de

Since September 2, the requirement to wear an FFP2 mask has been lifted; the new standard is the so-called "surgical mask". This is how the mask obligation will work in the future:

I'm not sure on the latest in Berlin but some relaxation occurred back in July:

More corona rules lifted

On Tuesday, the Berlin government agreed to allow shoppers to wear basic surgical masks and more. All the details.

www.berliner-zeitung.de

Berlin - The Berlin city-state government has decided to further relax its corona regulations from this coming Saturday. According to the news agency dpa, a simple surgical mask will suffice for shopping. FFP2 masks will still be mandatory in public transport and for services close to the body like massages and haircuts.

I don't get this demonisation of public transport.

 

[nw1]

Masks. I don't have a major problem with masks, but vaccine passports are an severe restriction on liberty if required for things as fundamental as shops, banks, and buses, which is happening in some countries. Not so fussed about large events such as concerts, but to apply vaccine passports to normal life means it is impossible for those who are unvaccinated to do everyday activities.

Much as I disagree with much of what Drakeford does/says in Wales, one thing I agree with is the Welsh govt encouraging people to be allowed to work from home longer term so long as (a) they can do their job from home and (b)) they want to do so.

When we look at the amount of investment needed for transport peak commuter flows, there's a strong argument for instead supporting things that reduce that demand- e.g. provision of fast broadband and new houses built with WFH in mind- as that is much lower cost than building transport infrastructure AND can result in improved quality of family life. Why shouldn't WFH carry on where it's been effective?

I recognise that many jobs cannot be done from home, but if those who could and wanted to work from home did so, it would ease the commuting crowding/stress on those who have no choice.... so everyone wins.

At the very least we should be separating out the WFH issue from the COVID issue and encouraging a mature conversation with managers/workplaces who had an old-fashioned attachment to "presenteeism."

TPO

I think work from home should always be a choice, not enforced.

It should be an option for those that want to, but should not be enforced or even encouraged as preferable to going in the office. One issue with work from home that I've raised in the past is the isolation it can bring, and the feeling of being stuck in the house all day. This is particularly true now we're in the darkest three months of the year and the ability to get out of the house after the end of the working day to go for a walk in daylight is no longer an option until February.

The real risk is we end up in isolated 'bubbles' long after Covid is over.