"Lets wait for a few months until things have opened up more" was a very poor decision I made last year.
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Vaccine Passports/Permanent restrictions
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And the responses from Nicola Sturgeon (one of which seemed to have been cut off).
I suspect she can't, I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't some way in which the UK government could insist (say, on the grounds of security). Her response was measured, I suspect she was treading a fine line.
True. I fear that, at times, some confuse what we can do and what we can't. We only control access to internal services and for people and goods to enter this country. We do not control whether people and goods can enter other countries and the conditions under which that might happen. And that is as it should be; we wouldn't (or shouldn't) accept other countries dictating to us.
As examples both Australia and New Zealand shut down whole cities on the strength of a handful of cases - not deaths. We shouldn't expect to go there any time soon. That is their decision, we must live with that.
nlogax
Established Member
I can understand the rush. Millions of people have been stuck at home for the best part of a year outside of a month or two last summer, but that mass impatience brings with it a lack of forethought as to what's practically required for post-pandemic travel - the main challenge being that the destination country is as comfortable with letting visitors in as Boris will soon be with letting us out.
From this perspective I can see my exploring more parts of the UK for the first two thirds of the year. That was my summer last year.
I may have mentioned this earlier in thread but even Jason Leitch in Scotland mentions it (28 Jan 2021):
www.dailyrecord.co.uk
found this: ... if anything I have mentioned as been said apologies!
www.irishpost.com
Covid vaccine passport system likely in Scotland says Jason Leitch
Leitch said the idea of a system to verify vaccinated individuals is an "interesting concept"
found this: ... if anything I have mentioned as been said apologies!
Vaccine passports set to be be introduced in Ireland, Leo Varadkar confirms | The Irish Post
LEO VARADKAR has confirmed that vaccine passports, to prove that you've been immunised against Co...
www.irishpost.com
Richard Scott
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I must admit to being at a total loss with the obsession of these politicians, seemingly worldwide, over this virus. I'd hate to think how they'd react if something as serious as Smallpox surfaced.I may have mentioned this earlier in thread but even Jason Leitch in Scotland mentions it (28 Jan 2021):
Covid vaccine passport system likely in Scotland says Jason Leitch
Leitch said the idea of a system to verify vaccinated individuals is an "interesting concept"
found this: ... if anything I have mentioned as been said apologies!
Vaccine passports set to be be introduced in Ireland, Leo Varadkar confirms | The Irish Post
LEO VARADKAR has confirmed that vaccine passports, to prove that you've been immunised against Co...
Probably throw everyone again under a bus, sorry lockdown again, ... forgot to mention he is a dentist oor Jason!...
Vaccine passports are an inevitability - at least some countries will introduce them as a condition of entry (whether de jure or de facto, if the alternative is hotel quarantine).
The right approach would be to make it easy to get your vaccine passport to enable international travel, but to introduce an amendment to the Equality Act making it an offence any UK service provider to ask for proof of, or to discriminate on the basis of, vaccination status.
We can therefore assume that is the opposite of what will happen!
The right approach would be to make it easy to get your vaccine passport to enable international travel, but to introduce an amendment to the Equality Act making it an offence any UK service provider to ask for proof of, or to discriminate on the basis of, vaccination status.
We can therefore assume that is the opposite of what will happen!
For me its the confusing messaging they send out (all UK), one minute its an idea for international travel (can understand), then on the other its domestic - thats like me going from Dundee to Newcastle/York then getting asked randomly in a shop have I been vaccinated (its like re-living your younger years of providing proof to buy alcohol/cigarettes)
From bbc main bit
“
She says: "What we've seen so far is that the vaccine actually stops spread of disease which means we probably don't need a 100% vaccination of the community to actually get some level of herd immunity.
"As we know vaccine passports actually support inequality."
Baxenden Bank
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Seems gibberish to me. "not absolutely essential". That reads to me that she feels they pretty much are essential and wishes to see them introduced.
Bantamzen
Established Member
That's a shame, because Greece is an incredible country. Reading a little more into, it seems that the Greek ministers seemingly keen to have vaccine passports are also very keen to see tourists back from Germany and the UK in particular, them being the 2 largest markets. So vaccine passports might be seen there as a way to open their holiday markets, especially given the ambiguity from many countries as to whether to adopt them. If the EU says no to them, then it will be a case of these countries making arrangements with countries like ours outside the EU, or even just accept that they want our business have have few if any restrictions on travel once we open up. Nothing is certain at this stage.
Really I doubt that you are twisting her words
Interestingly, I've just heard an interview on Radio 4 with Ms Srindhar (the advisor driving the covid response in Scotland) who interpreted the Israeli drive as meaning that through vaccination, instead of covid being something we live with like flu, it would become more like Measles, where we would largely live without it, even though it is endemic elsewhere in the world. What the interviewer failed to press her on was that we've pursued our response to measles for many years without domestic vaccine passports and other paraphernalia, so why not do the same with this.
They don't get Sridhar on to press her, they get her on to say stupid things that would require endless lockdown. Her position makes no sense, and as far as I can tell most of her colleagues are getting pretty fed up with it. Her's is not the only advice that Sturgeon is getting - she is also talking to actual scientists with proper medical qualifications as well - but you rather get the impression that Sridhar's is the only advice she's actually willing to listen to.
Tazi Hupefi
Member
Vaccine passports seem fairly straightforward to me.
For the purposes of international travel - the UK is going to have to make them voluntarily available to UK residents, end of. The existing WHO International Health Regulations 2005 certificate is more than acceptable for this purpose, has been issued in the UK for decades, and is between £0 and £15 depending where you get one from - see the blank version here. A lot of travellers to Africa and parts of Asia will already have one. It requires your passport travel document to be written or printed on the front, meaning that the government (or a shop, business etc) probably couldn't require you to use this sort of document domestically, as if you don't travel internationally, you will not hold a passport in the first place.
Exceptionally unlikely (virtually nil chance) of the UK government(s) mandating and legislating for a compulsory passport, or a law requiring businesses to request to see one as a compulsory condition of entry, although they may allow people to not be tested for COVID on production of some sort of vaccination proof. (Although I suspect mandatory tests to enter high capacity places like stadiums and concerts will be required regardless).
I suspect some businesses, although probably not the 'big' ones like supermarkets, clothes shops etc will do their own thing and require proof of vaccination as a condition of entry. However, I suspect that won't last too long, and such silly requirements will soon go away on their own accord.
So, in essence, the UK needs to make vaccination certificates, passports etc optionally available on a voluntary position, otherwise international travel will become difficult or impossible to countries to have them as a mandatory condition of entry.
For the purposes of international travel - the UK is going to have to make them voluntarily available to UK residents, end of. The existing WHO International Health Regulations 2005 certificate is more than acceptable for this purpose, has been issued in the UK for decades, and is between £0 and £15 depending where you get one from - see the blank version here. A lot of travellers to Africa and parts of Asia will already have one. It requires your passport travel document to be written or printed on the front, meaning that the government (or a shop, business etc) probably couldn't require you to use this sort of document domestically, as if you don't travel internationally, you will not hold a passport in the first place.
Exceptionally unlikely (virtually nil chance) of the UK government(s) mandating and legislating for a compulsory passport, or a law requiring businesses to request to see one as a compulsory condition of entry, although they may allow people to not be tested for COVID on production of some sort of vaccination proof. (Although I suspect mandatory tests to enter high capacity places like stadiums and concerts will be required regardless).
I suspect some businesses, although probably not the 'big' ones like supermarkets, clothes shops etc will do their own thing and require proof of vaccination as a condition of entry. However, I suspect that won't last too long, and such silly requirements will soon go away on their own accord.
So, in essence, the UK needs to make vaccination certificates, passports etc optionally available on a voluntary position, otherwise international travel will become difficult or impossible to countries to have them as a mandatory condition of entry.
Does anyone have an estimate of how long it will actually take for these "passports" to be issued and in our hands if it is decided to do so? I get the impression that these arguments could go on for months.
What form are these "passports" likely to be in? Would it be something similar to a driving license? Surely carting anything bigger around would be impractical and not everyone has a smart phone with a permanently charged battery.
What form are these "passports" likely to be in? Would it be something similar to a driving license? Surely carting anything bigger around would be impractical and not everyone has a smart phone with a permanently charged battery.
As I (unfortunately) predicted some months ago, the current idea appears to be to add it to the NHS contact tracing app.
STINT47
Member
Just had my vacination. The centre had run out of the vacination cards so using them as your passport isn't going to work. The hundreds done at that centre today won't have anything.
Plus they'd be to easy to forge. The app is an idea but what about my grandparents who wouldn't know what an app is and whos only phone is the landline st the bottom of the stairs?
Plus they'd be to easy to forge. The app is an idea but what about my grandparents who wouldn't know what an app is and whos only phone is the landline st the bottom of the stairs?
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All problems for Mr Gove to sort as he's been put in charge of looking into this! So no chance of disaster...
It is the same situation with my mam. This will be common with the elderly and plenty of other older age groups.
So people will be stuffed when their battery runs flat.
But of course, they have all the details when you have 1st and 2nd hole in the arm, so the info recorded then, can be used to issue a certificate etc if needed surely ? at a cost to cover admin, I still think there should not be a 'domestic' one, but, if you want to travel long haul, I can't see an issue with them.
Tazi Hupefi
Member
That is very unlikely to be the case for international travel, as it relies on overseas agencies and countries to recognise and verify the validity of that app. The International Health Regulations also specify things around what language should be used , as well as requiring details about the person who administered the vaccine, batch number etc.
I suspect it will be an external API into the NHS system, using the IATA solution or the ability to generate a paper document to print.
The idea of making them available is sensible. For those who medically can not be vaccinated a version must also be available. The format has to include a paper / card one. Being integral to the NHS app so linked to vaccination and medical records is logical. The paper / card version could include a QR code like rail tickets. This could be print at home and from a pharmacy. Ideally also given when vaccinated. Hospitals and doctors surgeries need to be excluded except at the time of vaccination.
For travel outside the UK we have to go with whatever another country sets as their requirements are for entry to and while there.
Within the UK, and I specifically include Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, as already raised the problem is making presentation a requirement for entry without being discriminatory. As just one example for theatres might they have an allocation of seats with unsold seats around for those who can not produce a passport ?.
For travel outside the UK we have to go with whatever another country sets as their requirements are for entry to and while there.
Within the UK, and I specifically include Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, as already raised the problem is making presentation a requirement for entry without being discriminatory. As just one example for theatres might they have an allocation of seats with unsold seats around for those who can not produce a passport ?.
RomeoCharlie71
Established Member
Do we segregate people who don't have the flu vaccine at Christmas pantomimes?
No, didn't think so.
Segregating people from society who do not want, or cannot have a vaccine is a VERY slippery slope. You are basically advocating a "clean vs. dirty society".
It is a lose-lose situation for Gove because there is no consensus on this either on this thread or, indeed, in the Conservative Party or in the country, there is no middle ground and the consequences of getting it wrong could be politically near-fatal. Gove needs to remember back to 30th June 2016, when he stabbed our Prime Minister in the back. Revenge is a dish best served cold.All problems for Mr Gove to sort as he's been put in charge of looking into this! So no chance of disaster...
As I've pointed out some pages above, there are two issues here:
- Requiring healthy people to undergo medical treatment that, for any number of reasons *or none*, they do not want to have.
- Requiring all people, even those who have agreeed to undergo that treatment, to continually own *and present* a record of their current health status, to pretty much any random body that demands it.
Either of those things should be utterly repulsive to anyone who wants to live in a free society.
To be absolutely clear I was making an example of the problem and how those in charge might try to avoid total exclusion.
Personally within this context I do not agree with segregation, discrimination etc FULL STOP.
Minimum ages for driving, drinking alcohol, smoking etc are a of course different context.
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Equally to be clear, I wasn't trying to point fingers, my point was a general one.
I don't think most people have properly thought through what going down this route would actually mean, and how dark a path it is. Are we really willing to throw away centuries of cherished and vital freedoms and societal foundations, simply out of fear of what is, in historical terms, an utterly unremarkable disease?
'Lockdowns' were bad enough, but at least they were going to (more or less) eventually end. But what is now being proposed with 'domestic vaccine passports' is a fundamental *and probably permanent* change in our entire civilisation, a massive power-grab by the state (and big business) and a corresponding huge reduction in the freedoms and liberties of the ordinary citizen.
Baxenden Bank
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Whilst I agree entirely with your line of arguing, I fear the vast majority of the public don't think about matters such as 'freedom' or 'rights'. At All. They just bumble through life, taking what is thrown at them, grumble a bit about it but go along with it anyway. Only if something they hold dear becomes a victim of new restrictions will all of a sudden it become 'a ridiculous imposition' etc.
As with voting and any requirement to hold photo ID, most of the population will have a vaccination and be able to show a card (or whatever) to prove it. They will regard those without a card as being awkward, rather than be willing to stand alongside them in any kind of show of solidarity. As with masks and those legally entitled to not wear one "they should stay at home then".
They came for the stubborn non-vaxxers, no one said a thing; they came for the ineligible young, no one said a thing; now they are coming for the Oxfordites and the Pfizerites because Moderna is now the thing, now who will stand up for them.
RailExplorer
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If vaccine passports become a thing for international travel, I unfortunately see that those that cannot have a vaccine (for whatever reason) unable to properly travel.
Take Yellow Fever. You can of course get an exemption certificate for it (my mum did just that on our recent trip to Tanzania), but in reality you are at the mercy of the Tanzanian border officials, who will ultimately decide whether that document is sufficient - if it’s not, you will get jabbed there and then with whatever needle they find. Thankfully they never checked our documents.
So for a vaccine passport for international travel to be non discriminatory, you need full cooperation from all countries throughout the world (yeah ok!!!) to recognise medical exemptions. Alternatively, a country such as the UK should lead the way and refuse to issue such a document on discrimination grounds and I reckon a lot of countries would soon follow our lead.
Domestic use really worries me though. Say I travelled 100 miles and forgot my vaccine passport at home (it could never be a mobile app unless of course we are to discriminate against all those that don’t own a smart phone). I could then potentially be unable to fill up my car with fuel to get home, or nip to the shop for food etc. And if I got stopped and I didn’t have this card, could I get fined? A year ago a lockdown was something a communist country may have done. Today, I don’t put it passed the Government to introduce legislation that I will be fined if not in possession of my domestic vaccine card at all times. A very slippery slope...
Take Yellow Fever. You can of course get an exemption certificate for it (my mum did just that on our recent trip to Tanzania), but in reality you are at the mercy of the Tanzanian border officials, who will ultimately decide whether that document is sufficient - if it’s not, you will get jabbed there and then with whatever needle they find. Thankfully they never checked our documents.
So for a vaccine passport for international travel to be non discriminatory, you need full cooperation from all countries throughout the world (yeah ok!!!) to recognise medical exemptions. Alternatively, a country such as the UK should lead the way and refuse to issue such a document on discrimination grounds and I reckon a lot of countries would soon follow our lead.
Domestic use really worries me though. Say I travelled 100 miles and forgot my vaccine passport at home (it could never be a mobile app unless of course we are to discriminate against all those that don’t own a smart phone). I could then potentially be unable to fill up my car with fuel to get home, or nip to the shop for food etc. And if I got stopped and I didn’t have this card, could I get fined? A year ago a lockdown was something a communist country may have done. Today, I don’t put it passed the Government to introduce legislation that I will be fined if not in possession of my domestic vaccine card at all times. A very slippery slope...
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