Virgin Azuma unveiled & plans for faster journey times

[AndyNLondon]

4 on the 5 car sets, 8 on the 9 car sets, in the 'bike & bulk room'. Bike storage (per the TTS) is planned around a 25 inch frame.

The space is reservable, if it's not reserved, the space can be allocated to luggage use, with fold down shelves. Reservations on FGW HSTs are compulsory from May and already compulsory on VTEC. It'll be interesting to see how it works in practice.

Those look like they could be quite awkward, in two ways: firstly if you need to remove a bike from the rear position when the front one is occupied; and secondly the handlebars-down position that's shown - getting a bike vertical on its rear wheel is easy enough (hold the back brake on, pull backwards on the bars, and the bike almost gets there itself) and it's easy enough to manoeuvre it into position like that, but front wheel down is far less practical.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think those doors will very quickly get broken.

I like the idea of having reservation displays on them.

 

[fgwrich]

Those look like they could be quite awkward, in two ways: firstly if you need to remove a bike from the rear position when the front one is occupied; and secondly the handlebars-down position that's shown - getting a bike vertical on its rear wheel is easy enough (hold the back brake on, pull backwards on the bars, and the bike almost gets there itself) and it's easy enough to manoeuvre it into position like that, but front wheel down is far less practical.

I'm really not looking forward to this system coming in. Not least because I reckon there will still be a problem with people wanting to 'turn up and go' with bikes. Also, not everyone has a 25 inch frame - I have a 27 MTB bike, and frame sizes are changing yet again. Already It can be difficult getting my bike on to some items of rolling stock like the 444s - because they rely on you 'docking' your wheel into the small rails provided. But, at least the 444 doesn't rely on this set up that the IEP has - on the 444, you park your bikes horizontally and each space can take around 4-5 bikes. Spreading it out like this, 2 bikes per space - and that depends on whether the space as been reserved or not - will ultimately, I feel, just cause more problems and congestion on a 5 car set. Even the Voyager in their reconfigured XC state allows for 5 in one area with 2 hanging / 3 horizontal.

And... I really cant but help but feel how bad this system will be on Great Westerns examples in the summer - Where 1 extra coach is usually inserted into the Newquay sets to cater for additional luggage / surfboards & Bikes. Not necessarily related to the VTEC ones I know, but They'll still take bikes or snowboards to Scotland!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect surfboards will not be allowed once the HSTs go. They aren't officially allowed anyway; carrying them is discretionary, AIUI. The railway does not have to carry any article with a dimension over one metre other than bicycles.

 

[asylumxl]

I suspect surfboards will not be allowed once the HSTs go. They aren't officially allowed anyway; carrying them is discretionary, AIUI. The railway does not have to carry any article with a dimension over one metre other than bicycles.

Are they actually obligated to carry bicycles by the NRCoC?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are they actually obligated to carry bicycles by the NRCoC?

I doubt it, as there are peak restrictions, however I imagine it features in the franchise agreements - they don't get any extra money for doing so, and the number of people who wouldn't travel if it wasn't allowed are noise level, so I would be surprised if it was a commercial decision.

 

[superkev]

The 2 seats next the door pockets loose both arm rests and windows. All down to Hitachi's dislike of our standard Sliding Plug Doors - The Japanese preferring their Pocket Doors. The ceilings are also lower at this point as the Air Con modules are situated in that area. .

I'm old enough to remember when NSE said they would only buy future trains with plug doors. This was due to problems with ice build up in sliding door tracks.
It will interesting to see how the 800's sliding doors perform in this respect and air tightness.
Sliding doors with there view limiting pockets a step back to me.
Also I wonder if there is a horizontal engine rather than V somewhere in the world to avoid that step up.
K

 

[AndyNLondon]

Are they actually obligated to carry bicycles by the NRCoC?

The introduction to the conditions of carriage says "You can: ... Bring luggage, animals and cycles with you. Restrictions may apply due to limited space, and you may need to make a reservation and/or pay a fee." And condition 48 says:
"48. Cycles
Train Companies allow cycles to be conveyed by train with the exception of a few routes. However, restrictions may apply at particular times of day and/or days of the week. A charge may be made for conveying a cycle and a reservation may be required. The Ticket Seller must tell you about these restrictions and any charges if you ask when buying your ticket."

So, bikes allowed except where/when restrictions are advertised.

(The stated size limit for luggage is 30 x 70 x 90cm, with surfboards (amongst other items) listed under "Items permitted at the discretion of individual Train Companies, for which a fee may be payable".)

 

[RichmondCommu]

Absolutely hideous example of how not to paint the new 800s. Why do we need the japanese lettering?

To make them sound global and cultured?

Looks like a livery designed by PC sustainability committee "Now how can we paint our trains to make sure that we look multicultural and don't look racist?", "I know sir".

Why the anti Japanese sentiments?
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Oh dear lord.

Haven't we worked out that less is more in terms of railway styling?

Lots of writing on the side dates very quickly.

What like Intercity 125?
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The original Hitachi mockups looked like cheap plastic junk in a conservative livery.

The Virgin launch train looks like cheap plastic junk daubed in a cheap plastic livery.

Without having been in the train I'm not really sure how you can justify saying that. And given that no one is asking you to buy the train I'm not really sure why any of that should be an issue.

 

[mark-h]

The introduction to the conditions of carriage says "You can: ... Bring luggage, animals and cycles with you. Restrictions may apply due to limited space, and you may need to make a reservation and/or pay a fee."

Is the fee regulated in any way or could the TOCs charge an unreasonable fee?

 

[HSTEd]

What like Intercity 125?

I prefer just "INTERCITY" myself [remember I am a bit young to remember blue on grey HSTs - I only just remember Swallow]

One word, two block colours with a red stripe.
The only flourish is the Swallow itself.

Not like the Dynamic lines mess we have from First Group.

 

[fgwrich]

I prefer just "INTERCITY" myself [remember I am a bit young to remember blue on grey HSTs - I only just remember Swallow]

One word, two block colours with a red stripe.
The only flourish is the Swallow itself.

Not like the Dynamic lines mess we have from First Group.

...Which the ''mess'' just consists on one base colour, one contrasting door colour, and one simple piece of vinyl. So 4 colours on Swallow v 2 on Dyanmic Lines. There is a colour contrast on Swallow - White on the front end turned into a sort of off white.

Anyway, this is completely drifting off from the 800s.

 

[HSTEd]

...Which the ''mess'' just consists on one base colour, one contrasting door colour, and one simple piece of vinyl. So 4 colours on Swallow v 2 on Dyanmic Lines. There is a colour contrast on Swallow - White on the front end turned into a sort of off white.

Anyway, this is completely drifting off from the 800s.

One piece of vinyl with idiotic colour patterns

And when was the last time one of these threads stayed on topic throughout?

 

[sprinterguy]

...Which the ''mess'' just consists on one base colour, one contrasting door colour, and one simple piece of vinyl. So 4 colours on Swallow v 2 on Dyanmic Lines.

There's a lot more than two colours incorporated into those vinyl "dynamic lines" though, which also give the impression of going nowhere fast. I'm pretty sure they count towards the final livery too.

 

[Class 170101]

I've heard it suggested that journey times are unlikely to be improved north of the Central Belt to Aberdeen and Inverness due IEP not being able to use Sprinter Differentials as where as HSTs do in Scotland.

 

[NotATrainspott]

I've heard it suggested that journey times are unlikely to be improved north of the Central Belt to Aberdeen and Inverness due IEP not being able to use Sprinter Differentials as where as HSTs do in Scotland.

HSTs have higher speed limits than Sprinters in places, so I very much doubt that is going to be a problem. Also, since the ICEC services stop more often than the ScotRail express services, the improved acceleration of the AT300s will make a big difference to journey times north of Edinburgh.

 

[Class 170101]

HSTs have higher speed limits than Sprinters in places, so I very much doubt that is going to be a problem. Also, since the ICEC services stop more often than the ScotRail express services, the improved acceleration of the AT300s will make a big difference to journey times north of Edinburgh.

The suggestion is they won't be able to use either HST or Sprinter ones then.

 

[causton]

The suggestion is they won't be able to use either HST or Sprinter ones then.

Is there a reason that they can not use the HST limits?

 

[Class 170101]

Is there a reason that they can not use the HST limits?

Heavier than HSTs.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Heavier than HSTs.

They should be able to use HST and MU differentials, the train technical specification was drawn up in such a way that IEP should be permitted to operate at those differentials.

The Class 22x fleets are permitted to use HST differentials; the Class 220/222 vehicles are comparable in weight to IEP vehicles, the Class 221 units are quite a bit heavier, although there's unsprung mass and track forces to take into account.

 

[Class 170101]

They should be able to use HST and MU differentials, the train technical specification was drawn up in such a way that IEP should be permitted to operate at those differentials.

The Class 22x fleets are permitted to use HST differentials; the Class 220/222 vehicles are comparable in weight to IEP vehicles, the Class 221 units are quite a bit heavier.

Was told by people who asked that a 22x unit be tested during the changeover period where a 22x unit was spare prior to East Coast handing Glasgow Central services over to Cross Country that 22x units weren't allowed to use the differentials on the Highland Main Line.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Was told by people who asked that a 22x unit be tested during the changeover period where a 22x unit was spare prior to East Coast handing Glasgow Central services over to Cross Country that 22x units weren't allowed to use the differentials on the Highland Main Line.

Sectional Appendix doesn't shed any light on it, as they're not cleared for the HML. I can't imagine any engineers would be happy with a Class 221 unit on their patch, and it's quite likely they wouldn't want a 221 unit covered by the HST differential.

 

[jopsuk]

Had a thought- presumably they'll need cleared through Cambridge-Ely-March for East Coast diversions. I guess the diesel in the 801s won't be enough for the Ely-Peterborough line, but where will the 800s switch power on such a diversion? The power supply can handle multiple eight car services between Cambridge and Ely, before someone claims "four car only north of Chesterton", as the peak timetable sees this happen.

Didn't think 222s could use "MU"? I'm sure this has come up in relation to 222s being used instead of 158s with the major issue being Ely-Peterborough and the Breckland line (Ely-Norwich)

 

[Class 170101]

Had a thought- presumably they'll need cleared through Cambridge-Ely-March for East Coast diversions. I guess the diesel in the 801s won't be enough for the Ely-Peterborough line, but where will the 800s switch power on such a diversion? The power supply can handle multiple eight car services between Cambridge and Ely, before someone claims "four car only north of Chesterton", as the peak timetable sees this happen.

Bi-modes would probably have to switich at Hitchin. I believe locos except Class 86s are banned under power between Hitchin and Shepreth Branch Jn (south of Cambridge). Note also during Ipswich Tunnel Blockade Class 86s and 90s were dragged from either Cambridge or Liverpool Street to Norwich and not just the un-wired bit from Ely to Norwich.

There is a limit on the number of units north of Milton Feeder Station (just north of Cambridge) I think its 5 EMUs under power Milton to Littleport and 5 under power Littleport to Kings Lynn. I don't think this includes stabled units.

Didn't think 222s could use "MU"? I'm sure this has come up in relation to 222s being used instead of 158s with the major issue being Ely-Peterborough and the Breckland line (Ely-Norwich)

Correct 222s use non-Sprinter speeds between Peterborough and Norwich

 

[D1009]

I thought HST speed differentials only existed because of superior braking characteristics compared to loco hauled stock. I was unaware weight came into it.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Didn't think 222s could use "MU"? I'm sure this has come up in relation to 222s being used instead of 158s with the major issue being Ely-Peterborough and the Breckland line (Ely-Norwich)

I think the Ely-Peterborough route only has Sprinter differentials, which cover the Sprinter family and the Turbostars, but not the Voyager/Meridian units.

The route between Edinburgh and Aberdeen has HST differentials, which cover HST sets, some of the Sprinters (chiefly those with disk brakes), Turbostars, Coradias, the Voyager/Meridian family, and IC225 sets.

IEP should slot into the HST differential category, enabling it to match HST, Class 180 and IC225 sets on the GWML and ECML.
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I thought HST speed differentials only existed because of superior braking characteristics compared to loco hauled stock. I was unaware weight came into it.

The different differentials exist because of different characteristics. The Sprinter differential is largely weight and axle loading based, the HST ones, as you rightly state, are down to braking characteristics, which is why only those Sprinter units with disk brakes can operate under the HST differentials.

 

[Skie]

I wonder how many luggage racks on these will get a better view than some seats?

 

[sprinterguy]

I wonder how many luggage racks on these will get a better view than some seats?

On the pre-production trains the only luggage racks within the saloon appear to be located at the saloon ends, where there are no windows.
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I suspect surfboards will not be allowed once the HSTs go.

One of the unfortunate limitations of modern multiple unit designs. It does disappoint me that long distance trains are increasingly unable to accommodate large items of luggage or cater for seasonal trends in this way.

 

[The Ham]

I suspect surfboards will not be allowed once the HSTs go. They aren't officially allowed anyway; carrying them is discretionary, AIUI. The railway does not have to carry any article with a dimension over one metre other than bicycles.

I would suspect that if it is worth the TOC's while that they will develop a way of carrying them.

I would guess that it could well be at the expense of bikes as generally people would want one or the other depending on the service (I.e. very few cycles going on a service to Newquay or very few surf boards going to York).

 

[IanXC]

Gentle reminder that this thread is entitled Virgin Azuma unveiled and plans for faster journey times

So if we could stay a little closer to topic that would be great!