Virgin Group explores the return of Virgin Trains as an Open Access operator

[Philip]

The eastbound path through the Castlefield corridor appears to conflict with the path of the Northern CLC stopper from Castlefield Jn into Oxford Road, with risk of delay to the following EMR Liverpool to Norwich.

The westbound path through the corridor is sandwiched between the Northern Chat Moss stopper and the Northern Airport to Blackpool, both of which call at both Oxford Road and Deansgate. At Castlefield Jn it appears to conflict with the path of the TPE Liverpool to Cleethorpes, which crosses the junction between the two Northern services.

These paths, neither of which is an unused Northern or TPE path, would seem to undermine the work of the Manchester Task Force by increasing the quanta of services through Castlefield, thereby putting punctuality performance at risk.

One of the westbound Northern services you mention could be diverted to Victoria to allow more breathing space through Castlefield. The eastbound CLC stopper would inevitably be re-timed slightly to follow the Virgin service into Oxford Road.

 

[ayubdaud]

Would there be gaps across Slade Lane for the Manchester path to get through to Stockport? I would have thought that would be massively tight. Second thing that sticks out to me is that I thought xx.24 departing Manchester Victoria was the TPE departure slot to Liverpool, which is only slightly earlier at the moment as they call at both Newton-le-Willows and Lea Green, which presumably one would be dropped when they go back to 2tph.

Only a couple times a day, though, if they did need to be flexed permamently to give the OA space.

 

[Greybeard33]

Would there be gaps across Slade Lane for the Manchester path to get through to Stockport? I would have thought that would be massively tight. Second thing that sticks out to me is that I thought xx.24 departing Manchester Victoria was the TPE departure slot to Liverpool, which is only slightly earlier at the moment as they call at both Newton-le-Willows and Lea Green, which presumably one would be dropped when they go back to 2tph.

Only a couple times a day, though, if they did need to be flexed permamently to give the OA space.

The xx39 departure from Piccadilly P13 appears to conflict at Slade Lane with the xx46 arrival from Buxton, which is routed through the junction from the Down Slow to the Down Fast at xx42 and is closely followed by the xx50 arrival from Stoke (xx45 Slade Lane). On the other hand, crossing from P13 to the Up Fast in Piccadilly throat would conflict with the xx40 arrival from Crewe via Stockport, which is routed from the Down Fast into P8 and is followed by the xx44 Avanti from Euston into p6.

Virgin's application states it is based on the June 2023 timetable, in which TPE had 2tph between Victoria and Liverpool. That timetable did indeed have TPE Newcastle to Liverpool departures from P3 at 0824 and 1624, the exact times at which Virgin proposes to use the platform.

The statement in the Virgin application that...

The timetables to support the four service groups above have/are being developed and validated based on the June 2023 timetable using industry recognised timetable development and validation tool ATTUne to demonstrate their credibility.

...seems to be "economical with the truth".

 

[Howardh]

I'm biased of course, living near Bolton, but I would imagine there would be more pax/income from Chorley/Horwich/Bolton > London than from Rochdale, although a change at Victoria could be argued to be easier than Piccadilly with it's narrow platforms, overcrowded escalator and no lift down to platform 6 (?) where Avanti's trains sometimes depart from.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I'm biased of course, living near Bolton, but I would imagine there would be more pax/income from Chorley/Horwich/Bolton > London than from Rochdale, although a change at Victoria could be argued to be easier than Piccadilly with it's narrow platforms, overcrowded escalator and no lift down to platform 6 (?) where Avanti's trains sometimes depart from.

Either way they only plan to run 2 trains per day to/from Rochdale but 5 to/from Preston/Bolton.

Maybe combining in the Glasgow services (which have Preston and Golborne stops) Bolton might receive a pretty good service if allowing for a connection (or 2).

 

[havaska]

Just a thought; where are the class 222 going when they leave EMR? Couldn’t Virgin take use of those trains from 2025?

 

[Energy]

Just a thought; where are the class 222 going when they leave EMR? Couldn’t Virgin take use of those trains from 2025?

Yes, but they can't tilt so would be subject to the same timings as the 805/807s.

 

[Class 800]

Yes, but they can't tilt so would be subject to the same timings as the 805/807s.

Is that a problem, necessarily?

 

[Mgameing123]

Surely there's no paths through Manchester that could be used by an open access operator? The dreaded Castlefield corridor is so busy, if there's any regular space in it's schedule, I would be shocked.

Come to think of it, given this service would use Ordsall Ln Jnc (either to head towards Liverpool or Preston, depending on how the service(s) are arranged), that's the second open access request to the ORR for that chunk of track in such a short amount of time

You probably have to go the Victoria way.

 

[stan claire]

I wonder how these Virgin services will get on in terms of passenger loadings…
If they run a service around 8am from Preston then they’ll have all the Manchester commuters cramming into their trains. If they ran a service around this time would they use other measures to avoid crowded services?
Also, if they are taking feedback on the proposal, it’d be nice for a call at Buckshaw on these services, as I know there’d be quite a few people as well as myself who would enjoy a direct London service. Horwich Parkway also doesn’t make much sense to me, as Blackrod is closer to the town centre and I doubt many would want to trek all the way to Middlebrook to get the train (or get fined for parking their car overnight). I’d also quite like a 10 car commute over a 3 that skips stations because of overcrowding

 

[Meerkat]

I wonder how these Virgin services will get on in terms of passenger loadings…
If they run a service around 8am from Preston then they’ll have all the Manchester commuters cramming into their trains. If they ran a service around this time would they use other measures to avoid crowded services?
Also, if they are taking feedback on the proposal, it’d be nice for a call at Buckshaw on these services, as I know there’d be quite a few people as well as myself who would enjoy a direct London service. Horwich Parkway also doesn’t make much sense to me, as Blackrod is closer to the town centre and I doubt many would want to trek all the way to Middlebrook to get the train (or get fined for parking their car overnight). I’d also quite like a 10 car commute over a 3 that skips stations because of overcrowding

Won’t it be reservation only so they can ensure long distance seats don’t get taken by short distance commuters?

 

[stan claire]

Won’t it be reservation only so they can ensure long distance seats don’t get taken by short distance commuters?

I can see them doing something like that unless they also let the commuters reserve seats

 

[Bletchleyite]

Won’t it be reservation only so they can ensure long distance seats don’t get taken by short distance commuters?

Wouldn't it be easier just to make it pick up only at Manchester?

 

[The Planner]

I wonder how these Virgin services will get on in terms of passenger loadings…

Likely zero, as they are unlikely to start based on their assumptions.