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Virgin reckon WCML was a "struggling rail artery"

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Old Timer

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From the Virgin website.

Virgin's worldwide interests and brand strength span transport and many other activities, including financial services and media, and always focus on customer service and innovation. Stagecoach is a leading international public transport group with major operations in the UK, USA and Canada.

This successful partnership has transformed a struggling rail artery into the UK's most used and most popular long-distance route. Running from London to major cities in England and through to Scotland, fast and frequent services now provide a genuine alternative to the plane and the car.

Not quite my recollection of the WCML, and certainly I cannot see what Virgin brought to the table of itself to bring about such "improvement" apart from broken promises and a large begging bowl which was subsequently handsomely filled.
 
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SS4

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What on Earth could Virgin stand to gain from such a claim? ;)
 

ChiefPlanner

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BR handed over the WCML without a single temporary speed restriction due to track or structure condition ........it needed investment certainly

One could go on about Railtrack and so on ......
 

WatcherZero

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Virgin financed the Pendolino and WCML upgrade, wasnt their fault it didnt all go to plan.
 

Flying Snail

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Virgin financed the Pendolino and WCML upgrade, wasnt their fault it didnt all go to plan.

I think you will find that you financed it (assuming you are a UK taxpayer).

Oh and as an added bonus you also financed a healthy profit margin for Virgin on top.
 

Bald Rick

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BR handed over the WCML without a single temporary speed restriction due to track or structure condition ........it needed investment certainly

One could go on about Railtrack and so on ......

One doesn't like to correct you CP, but there certainly was at least one TSR due to track condition on handover day. Admittedly it was on the up slow around Polesworth, and had been on for 2 years, but no one noticed!
 

185

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Article said:
This successful (Virmin....Stagecoach) partnership has transformed a struggling rail artery into the UK's most used and most popular long-distance route

Yep. Virgin & Stagecoach completed the 4TV project, Stockport remodelling and the entire resignalling of the WCML. And I'll believe that when my ***t turns purple
 

WatcherZero

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Railtrack were to spend £1.5bn with an additional £600m coming from Virgin Rail for signalling on a profit share basis, their premium franchise payment to Government was based on the extra revenue from 140mph services promised by Government in the tender. Virgin paid another £600m to purchase the Pendolino fleet. Railtrack paid out £250m to Virgin for late delivery penalty payments on their £600m signalling investment. Railtrack unable to deliver went bust and NR came in and said it would cost £8-10bn for a compromise 125mph WCML. The Government then had to bail out Virgins lower than expected revenues from not being able to operate at 140mph by subsidising the difference in their track access charges from what they should have been with £2.1bn spent on infrastructure to what they actually were with 4x that spent.

You of course know track access charges are calculated from the cost of the infrastructure divided by book life, add annual maintence charges then divided up by the quantity and weight of the services that operate on it.
 

bnm

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Virgin paid £600 million for the Pendolino fleet? They woz robbed then, seeing as they don't own a single piece of Class 390 rolling stock.
 

Zoe

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their premium franchise payment to Government was based on the extra revenue from 140mph services promised by Government in the tender.
PUG2 (140 mph) was an agreement between Virgin and Railtrack. OPRAF had previously only agreed with Railtrack for an upgrade to 125 mph.
 
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Snapper

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I cannot see what Virgin brought to the table of itself to bring about such "improvement" apart from broken promises

So, what promises did Virgin break then? The ability to run their trains at 140mph? - hardly their fault.

BRs spin about handing over the WCML without a singe TSR (which is open to question) was a headline grabber to distract attention from the condition of the WCML - which was falling apart.
 

WatcherZero

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Virgin paid £600 million for the Pendolino fleet? They woz robbed then, seeing as they don't own a single piece of Class 390 rolling stock.

Yes, original trains Virgin procured and they had to give guarenteed multi decade leasing commitments in order to secure them. The second batch were going to be the same (financed by Angel with a guarentee from Virgin) until the Dft threatened a competion inquiry into the leasing market (threatening to reduce the amount Virgin paid angel in leasing charges) and Angel backed out. The Dft then itself had to step in and underwrite the deal.
 

whhistle

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Yet another "we all hate Virgin" thread.
It's a shame some people are so blinded by what they've heard, what their mate has told them and such that they miss all the good things Virgin Trains and indeed the Virgin Group have brought to the UK.
 

Wath Yard

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Would it be possible to list all the good things Virgin Trains have brought to the UK? Please only list the things that are actually due to Virgin, and preferably that Virgin have used their own money to fund rather than through increased subsidy. So more frequent and faster services don't count as the VHF was specified by the DfT so Arriva, NatEx, or anyone else running the franchise would also have introduced this.
 

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So, what promises did Virgin break then? The ability to run their trains at 140mph? - hardly their fault.

BRs spin about handing over the WCML without a singe TSR (which is open to question) was a headline grabber to distract attention from the condition of the WCML - which was falling apart.
At seat service, individual TV screens, no Government subsidy are ones that spring immediately to mind.

It is common knowledge that you have good relations with Virgin, but this should not blind you towards seeing that they are not the shining star that their PR would suggest. I doubt anyone would have thought of the WCML being a "struggling rail artery" that was rescued by Virgin. I am still trying to think about how Virgin did this - bearing in mind that it was one of the most aggressive TOCs who argued time and time against the durations that were needed for the work.
 

Beveridges

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Good things brought to the wcml by Virgin? Can't name a single one! Also the money spent on the speed upgrade to the track (£12B) could have been better spent elsewhere. To me journey times have actually increased with Virgin compared to what they were before, due to waits for connections now being longer after the timetable changes over the last 10 years.
 

pemma

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I wonder if Virgin had taken on a real struggling franchise like Valley Lines or Wessex Trains what claim they would have made.
 

Old Timer

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They wouldn't take on something like that though. Not enough glory and publicity
Overheard at a Political "do" for wealthy supporters and donors.

Lady speaking to man at ......"Richard, we really MUST do something for you after not getting the Lottery"

I am sure most will put the jigsaw together.
 

Yew

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Maybe the next franchise holder should be Everest Glazing? So they put some windows on pendolinos?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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If I remember correctly, the alternatives to Virgin at the time were a manangement buy-out and maybe National Express.
Only VT (51% Branson plus 49% private equity eventually sold to Stagecoach) offered anything better then a like-for-like modernisation (ie 110mph non-tilt) which was the baseline DfT deal when Railtrack was privatised.
VT contracted with OPRAF first for a 125mph/tilting railway (PUG1) and then with Railtrack for a 140mph railway (PUG2).
Nobody else remotely had the ambition to do that, when their money was very much at risk.

VT may not have "bought" the 390 fleet but they underwrote the deal with Alstom and Angel and manage the fleet very effectively.
They may not have "paid for" the WCRM at the time but they are paying for it now in access charges, and the whole 125mph/tilt thing would have been ditched without them.
The VHF timetable may eventually have been set by DfT, but it was the nearest they could get to VT's originally contracted PUG2 service without a 140mph line and without more 390s.
And can you name another franchisee which has invested as much "blood and treasure" into their franchise?
Branson could well have pulled out in 2000 because of the brand damage, and left the entire mess with DfT. Instead he hired Chris Green and stuck with it.

I'm no particular fan of the Virgin empire, but most of the comments above don't do justice to VT's efforts over 15 years through about five changes of regulatory regime.
More important, if you line up First, Keolis or Abellio against VT, who do you reckon will do the most for the franchise in the NEXT 15 years?
 

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Virgin still take a subsidy, so I am not sure how you figure that they are "paying". Also you forget the CrossCountry scenario.

Branson is a shrewd operator and is also a big gambler - read his biography to see why - and unlike everyone else he listened to the Infastructure Engineers who said that 140mph could not be done, and whilst Railtrack and latterly Network Rail were removing these voices and replacing them with those who sang the Corporate song, Branson took on board what was being said and gambled that nobody would bring the Project in on time or in any shape close to what was proposed.

When it all turned out as predicted he was able to walk away with £ms in compensation, a renegotiated deal (both done by one of his former Managers), and the moral high ground even though the Pendolino fleet performance was falling through the floor.

Virgin Trains has been a very good wealth-generating vehicle for Branson, especially given the "interesting" and very efficient tax arrangements in place, given that some 15 years (??) after taking over there is still no sign of a positive return being given to the tax payer.
 

tbtc

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If the WCML wasn't a "struggling rail artery", and had no temporary speed restrictions or any other problems then the BILLIONS spent upgrading it seem a bit of a waste, don't they?

If the line was as perfect as people are now pretending then that was a crazy sum of money for just a little bit of four tracking in the Trent Valley...
 
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