Virgin trains compensation

[crosscity]

On Tue 11th July I arranged to go from my local station (Northfield) to Kew Gardens to visit the National Archive for the day, returning home in the evening.

The whole of the journey there and back cost £29.25 and was covered by the following:
1) An Anytime Return (with Senior Railcard discount) from Northfield to Birmingham Stations costing £3.50. This ticket was not bought from Virgin trains.
2) Two Advance tickets from the virgintrains website bought on 14th March as follows
• First Class seat on the 0830 Birmingham New St-Euston costing £17
• Standard Class seat on 1923 Euston-Birmingham New St costing £4
3) Pay-as-you go Oyster Card (with Senior Railcard discount) from Euston to Kew Gardens and return costing £4.75

The journey didn’t go according to plan because a person was hit by a train at Milton Keynes. I actually arrived at Euston at 13:11, 3h16m late.

I sent an email to Virgintrains requesting compensation for the severe delay, expecting, because I arrived more than two hours late, the cost of both the outward and return journey minus the automatic payment that Virgin made for the £17 ticket. I provided scanned images of all the tickets and reservations, plus the pdf of my Oyster history.

I have now received a reply from Virgintrains which says:
"Upon investigation I can confirm that you have already received a £17.00 refund which is 100% of the cost of your ticket and the correct refund amount. You can see from the details contained in your booking that your purchased a series of single tickets rather than a return ticket type therefore you are not due any further refund or compensation."

This doesn't sound right. Do you agree and what, if anything, should I do next?

 

[221129]

I believe you are also entitled to the £3.50 from Northfield to Brum. As for the rest of it I am fairly sure (but not certain) that virgin are correct.

 

[JBuchananGB]

In respect of the same incident, my daughter posted a letter and the used tickets for the trip on 11th July when she accompanied a Disabled Persons Railcard holder from Chelmsford to Manchester and back same day. They had intended to travel on the 10.00 Euston to Manchester, due 12.04, but actually travelled on the 10.48 Great Central to Doncaster, then TPE to Manchester arriving 14.05.
Off-peak Return cost £122.20. Tickets purchased that day at Chelmsford.
She requested a full refund of £122.20 as the journey was delayed by 2 hours 1 minute.
She included a printout from Real Time Trains to show that the TPE arrived 2 minutes late at Manchester, because if it had been on time the journey would have only been delayed 1 hour 59 minutes.
She posted the letter to them on the 17th I think. She has not heard anything back yet.

Any suggestions how long she should wait before pestering them?

 

[221129]

Given that most claims can take up to a few months I would wait a little longer if I were you...

 

[crosscity]

I believe you are also entitled to the £3.50 from Northfield to Brum. As for the rest of it I am fairly sure (but not certain) that virgin are correct.

My journey was from Northfield to Kew Gardens, a journey possible wholly on NR trains, so shouldn't an element of my Oyster deduction also be included?

What I don't understand is why the two singles don't logically make a return as it was clearly my intention to go and come back - the tickets were booked as outward and return on the virgin website.

Any suggestions how long she should wait before pestering them?

I sent an email to [email protected] on 13th July and received the reply (by email) today (4th August). There was also an acknowledgement email and a further (holding) email.

Because I booked the Advance tickets on the Virgintrains website I also received two emails relating to the automatic repayment of the £17 ticket on the 12th and 13th July.

 

[gray1404]

Send another email back to Virgin Trains (quoting your case reference number) and explain that you are unhappy with their response and ask for them to look at their decision. Enclose copies of all your tickets again and explain why you feel you are entitled to compensation totaling the full value of your tickets.

The above option is open to you at this point.

 

[island]

Two singles don’t make a return because they’re two singles. You are not entitled to have the £4 advance repaid.

The general consensus on this forum is that where you have split tickets for a journey, you can claim delay compensation based on all of the tickets for that journey. Some train operating companies advance arguments that they will only repay for the ticket in use when the delay occurred, and given they control how much compensation they’re going to pay out...

 

[Hadders]

Two singles don’t make a return because they’re two singles. You are not entitled to have the £4 advance repaid.

The general consensus on this forum is that where you have split tickets for a journey, you can claim delay compensation based on all of the tickets for that journey. Some train operating companies advance arguments that they will only repay for the ticket in use when the delay occurred, and given they control how much compensation they’re going to pay out...

Many TOCs say they will pay compensation if your journey is delayed.

The NRCoT says that two or more tickets may be used to make one journey.

 

[island]

Those are both true statements.

 

[TrainfanBen]

FAO; Original poster 'crosscity';

I have a feeling that Virgin have come to the correct amount (£17) owed/refund to the OP.[/b]

My journey was from Northfield to Kew Gardens

There is no liability for your journey between Northfield and Birmingham New Street. You purchased tickets seperately (most likely through London Midland who operate Northfield Station) and they did not cause you a delay.

The next train, of the outward leg was delayed by Virgin between New Street and Euston. (£17)

"But for the delay of the first train was there any subsequent delay? No there wasn't";
I'm of the opinion that the delay remained unchanged between Euston-Kew Gardens; the frequency on London Overground is every 20 minutes via Willesden Junction (according to thetrainline.com) so that was always the maximum waiting time and there was no other disruption, and so did not contribute to your delay.

Whether they should have considered this part I don't know, but its fairly clear that the OP expected to get the first possible service rather than a particular service so I don't think it makes any difference.
As for the single from Euston to New Street.

You booked an advance train and were not prevented from boarding this service and it was not itself delayed, so there is no liability for Virgin to refund you anything for this.

And the journey from New Street to Northfield was also unaffected.

I hope this helps.

I hope this post is ok in tone, re-reading it I can't help but think of a certain 'televison' judge...

 

[221129]

FAO; Original poster 'crosscity';

I have a feeling that Virgin have come to the correct amount (£17) owed/refund to the OP.[/b]



There is no liability for your journey between Northfield and Birmingham New Street. You purchased tickets seperately (most likely through London Midland who operate Northfield Station) and they did not cause you a delay.

The next train, the outward leg was delayed by Virgin between New Street and Euston. (£17)

"But for the delay of the first train was there any subsequent delay? No there isn't";
I'm of the opinion that the delay remained unchanged between Euston-Kew Gardens; the frequency on London Overground is every 20 minutes via Willesden Junction (according to thetrainline.com) so that was always the maximum waiting time and there was no other disruption, and so did not contribute to your delay.

Whether they should have considered this part I don't know, but its fairly clear that the OP expected to get the first possible service rather than a particular service so I don't think it makes any difference.
As for the single from Euston to New Street.

You booked an advance train and were not prevented from boarding this service and it was not itself delayed, so there is no liability for Virgin to refund you anything for this.

And the journey from New Street to Northfield was also unaffected.

I hope this helps.

Is this fact or your opinion? As it goes against everything else I understand on this matter.

 

[221129]

FAO; Original poster 'crosscity';

I have a feeling that Virgin have come to the correct amount (£17) owed/refund to the OP.[/b]

I disagree

There is no liability for your journey between Northfield and Birmingham New Street. You purchased tickets seperately (most likely through London Midland who operate Northfield Station) and they did not cause you a delay.

Where you buy tickets are irrelevant. Delay comnpensation is based on your actual journey in this case the journey started at Northfield so that is where compensation should be from. Oyster is a bit of a grey area.

The next train, of the outward leg was delayed by Virgin between New Street and Euston. (£17)

I've answered your points in bold. The rest of the text in your post is irrelevant.

 

[TrainfanBen]

The OP seeks compensation. Not delay repay. I read the post on that basis.

 

[crosscity]

The OP seeks compensation. Not delay repay. I read the post on that basis.

'Compensation' is the term used by VTWC on its Delay Repay form, and that is what I am claiming.

 

[bb21]

The OP seeks compensation. Not delay repay. I read the post on that basis.

Delay Repay is a form of compensation.

The return leg is irrelevant as two singles do not make a return fare.

 

[yorkie]

Please disregard TrainfanBen's post; it contains several inaccuracies.

On Tue 11th July I arranged to go from my local station (Northfield) to Kew Gardens to visit the National Archive for the day, returning home in the evening.

The whole of the journey there and back cost £29.25 and was covered by the following:
1) An Anytime Return (with Senior Railcard discount) from Northfield to Birmingham Stations costing £3.50. This ticket was not bought from Virgin trains.
2) Two Advance tickets from the virgintrains website bought on 14th March as follows
• First Class seat on the 0830 Birmingham New St-Euston costing £17
• Standard Class seat on 1923 Euston-Birmingham New St costing £4
3) Pay-as-you go Oyster Card (with Senior Railcard discount) from Euston to Kew Gardens and return costing £4.75

The journey didn’t go according to plan because a person was hit by a train at Milton Keynes. I actually arrived at Euston at 13:11, 3h16m late.

I sent an email to Virgintrains requesting compensation for the severe delay, expecting, because I arrived more than two hours late, the cost of both the outward and return journey minus the automatic payment that Virgin made for the £17 ticket. I provided scanned images of all the tickets and reservations, plus the pdf of my Oyster history.

I have now received a reply from Virgintrains which says:
"Upon investigation I can confirm that you have already received a £17.00 refund which is 100% of the cost of your ticket and the correct refund amount. You can see from the details contained in your booking that your purchased a series of single tickets rather than a return ticket type therefore you are not due any further refund or compensation."

This doesn't sound right. Do you agree and what, if anything, should I do next?

You are entitled to Delay Repay compensation based on your entire journey.

As well as going back to Virgin Trains asking them to look again, please log a complaint with Transport Focus. Please let us know how you get on.

I'd also argue 2 x Singles make a return but this is less clear-cut. How was it worded when you booked the tickets? Some booking sites say "Outward journey" and "Return journey".

By the way, booking through a site such as Trainsplit where you get an itinerary for your full journey, and including a screenshot of the journey itinerary along with your tickets, provides good evidence that your tickets cover one journey. There is no obligation to do this, but it may reduce the chances of a company such as Virgin Trains making false statements about what constitutes a journey. Booking the tickets separately doesn't negate the fact you made one journey though, it's entirely permitted to do that.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/Conditions of Travel 2016.pdf

...you may use a combination of two or more Tickets to make a journey...

 

[crosscity]

Delay Repay is a form of compensation.

The return leg is irrelevant as two singles do not make a return fare.

....... even though the website was geared up to making a return journey?

 

[najaB]

....... even though the website was geared up to making a return journey?

I have a suspicion that, were it to be tested legally, the fact that a return fare was offered and refused would be enough to say that you were making two single (rather than one return) journeys.

 

[bb21]

....... even though the website was geared up to making a return journey?

Does not matter.

You were fully aware you were purchasing single tickets.

 

[yorkie]

Does not matter.

You were fully aware you were purchasing single tickets.

I disagree with your opinion.

The Virgin Trains website states the customer is making a return journey. At no point are customers told any loss of rights may occur. Loss of flexibility, by taking "specified train only" yes, but nowhere does it say you are no longer making a return journey.

The OP should fight this, I know Transport Focus are interested in this case.

 

[crosscity]

I have a suspicion that, were it to be tested legally, the fact that a return fare was offered and refused would be enough to say that you were making two single (rather than one return) journeys.

I was not offered a Return Fare - On the first page as soon as you start typing where you are going from three options are displayed: 'One way' 'Return' 'Anytime return'. I chose 'Return' and a further box appears to put in the date and time of the return journey.

After that the ticket types are displayed such as Sale, Advance, Off-Peak and Anytime. I didn't refuse the Off Peak fare; I just chose the Sale fare.

 

[sheff1]

I have a suspicion that, were it to be tested legally, the fact that a return fare was offered and refused would be enough to say that you were making two single (rather than one return) journeys.

Ryanair tried a similar argument. They lost.

 

[najaB]

Ryanair tried a similar argument. They lost.

Ryanair is a bit different in that they don't offer return fares. In this case there are return fares defined, the OP chose to purchase two single fares instead.

 

[Starmill]

It's difficult for anyone to claim two single fares were purchased.

The website makes a very clear distinction between single and return - it seems very likely that the OP selected the return option when they made their purchase, perhaps they can confirm that.

If that is what happened, I don't see what basis people can claim there isn't a return here.

If the OP wanted singles they would have pressed the single option on the website.


However, we have been here and done this before. I remember cases where people were told, many years ago, that Advance tickets purchased as part of a return journey were to be treated as such for the purposes of refunds and compensation. Some forum members disagreed that this was appropriate then and I am sure they will continue to do so now - perhaps because it simply makes them happy.

I have even had this issue with a train company myself where the line was closed so I was unable to make my outward journey. I applied for a refund and they refused to refund my return journey as they claimed the line had re-opened at that time and I could have travelled. After much work, I eventually recieved a full refund in that case.

 

[bb21]

I disagree with your opinion.

The Virgin Trains website states the customer is making a return journey. At no point are customers told any loss of rights may occur. Loss of flexibility, by taking "specified train only" yes, but nowhere does it say you are no longer making a return journey.

The OP should fight this, I know Transport Focus are interested in this case.

None of this makes any difference.

I have been trying to seek clarification from various TOC websites, however there is as usual inconsistency between the use of the words "journey", "ticket" and "fare", so no joy there.

The use of the term "return journey" is in itself a misnomer, as going origin-destination-origin is clearly not in itself a journey. If the argument were that origin-destination-origin formed one journey, the the OP should not be deemed as having been delayed at all, should he not be delayed at his eventual destination, ie. where he started from. This is clearly ludicrous.

In his case, tickets for the return journey had nothing to do with his outward journey. He paid a single Advance fare for his journey (plus bits at either end).

Transport Focus are interested in many things, but they still need good reasons why the decision by the TOC was incorrect.

I would say you are on to a loser on this one, although if the customer shouts loud enough, he might get some additional compensation to make him go away.

 

[yorkie]

Ryanair is a bit different in that they don't offer return fares. In this case there are return fares defined, the OP chose to purchase two single fares instead.

I'm not sure if you are trying to wind us up, but it certainly feels like it. It's not going to make me go away; quite the contrary. It makes me determined to win this case. I have contacted the OP directly regarding this matter and I will be ensuring that this case is won.

Did you read my post above? If you are able to either try it for yourself, or look at my screenshot, you will see that at no point is there any suggestion the passenger is not making a return journey.

In fact the only mention of "single" on their booking matrix page is this:

The results above show single ticket prices, based on the fastest available journey, to offer more flexibility to our customers.

That means ALL the fares are "singles", even the Off Peak and Anytime fares.

If passengers select "Off Peak" or "Anytime" in both directions, a return fare will be issued. This is hidden from the customer.

The customer did not choose any option that made any suggestion that any loss of rights would occur whatsoever. Do you deny this obvious fact?

 

[yorkie]

None of this makes any difference.

I have been trying to seek clarification from various TOC websites, however there is as usual inconsistency between the use of the words "journey", "ticket" and "fare", so no joy there.

The use of the term "return journey" is in itself a misnomer, as going origin-destination-origin is clearly not in itself a journey. If the argument were that origin-destination-origin formed one journey, the the OP should not be deemed as having been delayed at all, should he not be delayed at his eventual destination, ie. where he started from. This is clearly ludicrous.

In his case, tickets for the return journey had nothing to do with his outward journey. He paid a single Advance fare for his journey (plus bits at either end).

Transport Focus are interested in many things, but they still need good reasons why the decision by the TOC was incorrect.

I would say you are on to a loser on this one, although if the customer shouts loud enough, he might get some additional compensation to make him go away.

Your argument holds no water whatsoever and completely disregards the customer booking experience.

The website makes it absolutely clear that a "return journey" is being sold.

 

[Starmill]

Personally, I would just be dissappointed though that the company who had delayed me by such a huge margin (the journey having taken more than 3 times the length it should have done) was so interested in trying to hang on to £4.

After letting the customer down so very, very badly one would think that a little bit of additional compensation would be forthcoming. Perhaps this is in line with Virgin Trains' 'awesome' policies though?

 

[bb21]

If that is what happened, I don't see what basis people can claim there isn't a return here.

Except on the booking confirmation screen, where it is clearly stated the fare type purchased?

 

[roversfan2001]

Except on the booking confirmation screen, where it is clearly stated the fare type purchased?

The words "OUTWARD" and "RETURN" are also to be found on that screenshot.