Virgin Trains East Coast launch day

[Sidious]

I love the fact you're showing the 225 signatures image which was posted when the petition was under a week old! So who's the one spinning it when you deliberately quote old info and the petition was over 600 when you actually did post? The petition is relatively new (about 3 weeks old) as it was created by a new contributor to the campaign.

That's over 600 people who've bothered to sign up to change.org to sign the petition. I can't see that many people caring if they scrapped Nectar.

As someone else pointed out, unfortunately we can't FoI VTEC. I would love to know how many people have stopped booking third party tickets through the ECML site, the commission of which was more than enough to fund the scheme. There's now NO incentive to book third party tickets through this site, if you want Nectar then you need to book through FirstGroup to get points on all tickets.

Can I just say what a crazy thing to say? Of course we know most people used their points on train tickets. That was the main point of the scheme! I don't think we need a FoI request to prove that most people did that, it was pretty much a given. But to get the free tickets you needed to earn the free tickets. That's the whole idea of a loyalty scheme (which Nectar fails at) it encouraged us to (a) travel by rail, (b) book tickets through their website and (c) upgrade to first class. On the other hand Nectar (a) is currently giving more points for fuel than rail travel, (b) encourages booking through a FirstGroup website and (c) offers no incentive to upgrade.



So you want me to give up because YOU said so? I ask you why? What makes you say what I can dedicate my time to? You may be surprised but the support has risen since March. That's how we've appeared more active because there's more people working on it. Even if I moved on, they wouldn't.

It was the best loyalty scheme in the UK and now we've got one that actually gives you more points if you drive (10x offer on Sainsbury's fuel) than take the train!

As someone said to me a few days ago, the good thing about those that tell you to give up is they quickly give up telling you to give up. We had something great, we have rights to stand up for what we believe in, why should we give up when some company takes over with loads of marketing spin of how great they are, describing Nectar as a 'truly rewarding experience', we've had proper loyalty schemes on the ECML since GNER days!

Some people may be happy to sit back and let changes for the worse happen, doesn't mean we all have to.

I think that SaveECRewards is doing a brilliant job. The thing that really winds me right up with Virgin is not particularly that they have scrapped the scheme its self (although it does) but that they are forever crowing on about listening to customers.

I was a rewards customer pretty much since the beginning. I had a first class return to Inverness and two to London out of the scheme. These were all off peak and probably cost EC very little to provide. In return I booked all my tickets for every journey with them and I will guess the commission they earned for trips like Manchester to Birmingham must have more than paid for my 'free' trips.

I can not ever see myself having enough nectar points to get a free trip anywhere so I'm not even bothering to collect them - it's not worth the hassle. Now I'm booking all of my rail trips through another operator's website.

The only way that a company will know that their customers are unhappy is if people keep telling them. VTEC keep burying their head in the sand though.

It seem that there is a very easy get out to save face for VTEC. Keep Nectar and bring back Rewards. Make rewards redemption available against rail related products (upgrades, lounge access, tickets) only - so no more cases of wine. Keep nectar for occasional travellers who just want a few points but who won't be travelling enough to make rewards worth their while.

SaveECR keep up the good work!

 

[Butts]

I will be making my last ever EC rewards journey on Monday when I travel from Kings Cross to Edinburgh on a "Dinner Service".

My source of booking all journey's was EC as it was an excellent scheme to build up "freebies" which I always exchanged for 1st Class Travel.

With the advent of "Nectarisation" I will be reverting to Air Travel (that's how I am travelling outbound) as booked far enough in advance is competitively priced in relation to 1st Class Rail Travel.

 

[Chrism20]

Just a side thought but if when Stagecoach & Virgin submitted the bid they said they would stop rewards and introduce Nectar where would this then leave their contract to run the line if they didn't do what the contract with the government said?

Also after their bid had been accepted they would have been allowed exposure to the accounts including the rewards ones. It clearly wasn't making the bucket loads of money that some think as there is no business out there would willingly shut something down if it was a serious revenue driver.

Rewards was brilliant for me, I had well over a dozen free first class returns and like everyone else I bought all tickets through it as a matter of course but sadly I cannot see there being a u-turn

 

[ainsworth74]

I believe the franchise will have specified a 'loyalty scheme' so as long as VTEC offer one I don't think the DfT will be bothered by the specifics.

 

[Aldaniti]

I think that SaveECRewards is doing a brilliant job.

So do I! East Coast Rewards actually encouraged me to travel by train. Nectar does not. I've emailed Stagecoach East Coast asking them to close my account but haven't received a reply.

 

[SaveECRewards]

I believe the franchise will have specified a 'loyalty scheme' so as long as VTEC offer one I don't think the DfT will be bothered by the specifics.

I can't see Nectar being specified by name in the contract either. What happens if Nectar goes out of business? I can't see it lasting much longer now that Sainsbury's have devalued it further (and that had already been announced before Virgin were awarded the franchise, so they should have known this!)

To answer Chrism20 they did have access to the full accounts and did so during the bidding process (this was confirmed in my FoI request) but there's many examples in business when decision makers think they know best and assume Nectar is going to boost sales "if East Coast Rewards boosted sales that much think how well a popular scheme like Nectar will perform. It's already been successful on the west coast and FirstGroup passengers seem to like it and the 2000 random people we surveyed haven't even heard of East Coast Rewards".

The figures in the FoI request can't lie. I think it was a genuine mistake in the belief that big name over substance would win out. They probably realised a few people would drop out but would be made up by more people signing up for Nectar. Looking at Twitter the day it was announced @eastcoastuk was flooded with complaints (can't blame me the campaign hadn't gone live at this point). There was only one positive comment about Nectar and David Horne found it and retweeted it. Once our site was up I tweeted her the comparison between Rewards and Nectar and she agreed Rewards was better!

Even if they stupidly specified Nectar to DfT then I'm sure the DfT would not mind them running other schemes like EC Rewards alongside Nectar (like they do with Flying Club).

I've suggested a few options to them:
- Go back how things used to be. Maybe have an option to transfer points to Nectar or Flying Club if preferred. Maybe tweak it to make it more commercially attractive if they think some rewards were too easy.

- Another idea would be to become a proper partner in Virgin Atlantic Flying Club, this would get around any contracts with Nectar as Flying Club must already been agreed. By a proper partner I mean treated like the airline partners. You earn a decent number of miles rather than the small amount you get currently and you can also spend your miles on rail tickets (which you can't do now). If this was done correctly it would be significantly better than Nectar.

- Run a status based programme alongside Nectar. Like Virgin WC's Traveller programme it wouldn't use points but unlike Traveller would have some nice benefits to encourage travellers in all spending brackets whereas Traveller only benefits a few. Have tiers based on VTEC spend. Once you reach each tier you'll bank a different reward. Hard to explain fully here but if anyone is interested in this let me know and I'll put it on the website.

Our technique is as follows:

- Show existing and potential East Coast users how good Rewards are and the benefits of this over Nectar.

- Run a spin-off campaign "No to Nectar" to show how poor Nectar is generally. Unfortunately sounds like a bit of an ad for Tesco because Clubcard beat Nectar in every category (even before the recent Sainsbury's Nectar cut). The idea of this campaign is to raise general awareness.

- Encourage people to book tickets elsewhere as losing all the commission is an incentive to bring back rewards. Even if people want Nectar they're better off with FirstGroup.

I've not advocated a full scale boycott although I support those of us who feel strongly enough to do so. Changing your booking habits is the key way to make a difference. That said VTEC will now have stiffer competition against the airlines (London-Scotland) and other operators (GC London-York, XC Newcastle-Edinburgh). Now there's no restaurant and it's usually dark when I travel I actually prefer flying to Scotland, particularly from LCY. I feel the complimentary offering is enough for a 3 hour trip to Newcastle but for Scotland I'd prefer something more substantial. With Rewards I'd take the train even if it was a bit more expensive as I knew I'd be on my way to a free ticket. Now the tables are reversed and I'd find the flight the preferable option and expect the train to be a lot cheaper to take it. However where the train makes more sense I will continue to take it.

 

[Failed Unit]

To be honest, none of the completing booking engines do much for me either. The "first" ones offer nectar on all bookings but as nectar is only better than a kick in the teeth it won't encourage me to use them.

But people thinking lets fly instead, consider the airline loyalty. BA have just decimated Avios from 500miles per journey to 125. If you are a silver card holder I think the reduction is even worse something linke 100 now down to around 200. Ryanair do a good loyalty scheme

It seems like most loyalty schemes are getting work (advance in Scotland has gone as well) It think sadly it is a case of we enjoyed it while it lasted. (isn't the West Coast one significantly worse than it used to be as well)

 

[cf111]

Second last rewards ticket for me on Thursday on the southbound Highland Chieftain - the cottage pie is beautiful!

 

[Butts]

To be honest, none of the completing booking engines do much for me either. The "first" ones offer nectar on all bookings but as nectar is only better than a kick in the teeth it won't encourage me to use them.

But people thinking lets fly instead, consider the airline loyalty. BA have just decimated Avios from 500miles per journey to 125. If you are a silver card holder I think the reduction is even worse something linke 100 now down to around 200. Ryanair do a good loyalty scheme

It seems like most loyalty schemes are getting work (advance in Scotland has gone as well) It think sadly it is a case of we enjoyed it while it lasted. (isn't the West Coast one significantly worse than it used to be as well)

I agree BA have done an "East Coast" on their loyalty scheme. (to be fair I think BA beat Virgin to it)

Fortunately I had enough points to book my next "Fag Run" to Luxembourg on the old terms. The biggest loss to me and others in Scotland is the "Domestic Add On" which for £35 got you to LHR and back to join your Avios Flight to wherever.

I use the plane for speed and lack of "nicotine free" time relative to rail

 

[Aldaniti]

My last Rewards ticket is next Saturday for a FC jaunt to Newcastle. I guess this might well be my last journey on East Coast. Good while it lasted. ad:

 

[Butts]

It seems to me, from the contributions on here, just about everyone used the Rewards Scheme for 1st Class Travel - a treat to a lot of us

Wonder what the actual split 1st/2nd was with regard to redemptions.

 

[SaveECRewards]

To be honest, none of the completing booking engines do much for me either. The "first" ones offer nectar on all bookings but as nectar is only better than a kick in the teeth it won't encourage me to use them.

But people thinking lets fly instead, consider the airline loyalty. BA have just decimated Avios from 500miles per journey to 125. If you are a silver card holder I think the reduction is even worse something linke 100 now down to around 200. Ryanair do a good loyalty scheme

The main point of switching booking engines is to deny VTEC the commission and therefore give them an incentive to reintroduce rewards. Even though there's nothing much better you should vote with your wallet by switching. It only takes a few mins to register with your booking engine of choice and as long as you avoid ones with booking fees won't cost you any more but it means you help in the campaign to get rewards back. If people just take the easy option and stay booking everything with VTEC nothing will ever change.

As for flying I've already covered this. If VTEC had left rewards alone they could have surely won over a lot of BAEC/Avios members. I think East Coast Rewards was better than Avios before the cutbacks but it would have been the clear favourite had it not been scrapped after BA made the cutbacks.

However even with the current cutbacks I think Avios is still SIGNIFICANTLY better than Nectar. It's just a lot worse than it was, but nothing is so down in the gutter poor as Nectar. Also it's only the cheapest fares that have been affected so badly.

It's funny BA's timing of the Avios announcement made it hard to get press for the Save EC Rewards campaign as they announced their cutbacks a few days after we launched and the press prefer to attack BA rather than Virgin.

That said I never mentioned loyalty schemes when talking about flying in my previous post. Now VTEC effectively has no loyalty scheme(*) people will be more likely to take into account cost or convenience in their decision on who to travel. Like I said I was one time willing to pay more to travel East Coast as I knew I'd be getting something worthwhile back.

Prices are good at the moment as there's competition on the LCY-EDI route. Long may it continue!

(*) you can't really call it a loyalty scheme when you get more points for driving than taking the train.

 

[Failed Unit]

The main point of switching booking engines is to deny VTEC the commission and therefore give them an incentive to reintroduce rewards. Even though there's nothing much better you should vote with your wallet by switching. It only takes a few mins to register with your booking engine of choice and as long as you avoid ones with booking fees won't cost you any more but it means you help in the campaign to get rewards back. If people just take the easy option and stay booking everything with VTEC nothing will ever change.
.

Depends what journey I am doing, I will continue to book with the east coast site for thier own journeys. I know the discount offered isn't really that much but it isn't worth booking elsewhere just to prove a point on east coast advance (where the discount applies)

For my Scotrail journeys, it is back the station with them, which if the booking office is on commission will make them happy again.

As for flying -v- rail. To be honest for me the loyalty scheme is my last consideration. If I am going to central London I would normally prefer the train. What is actually putting me off it is the inability of East Coast to run on time and missing the connection at Edinburgh as a result. Normally as a result of following late running trains out of York and getting stuck outside Durham station as a result along with a longer dwell at Darlington and Newcastle as the preceeding train enters the platform. :cry: So my less travel with East Coast will continue until the x00 can consistantly arrive at around x22 to stand a chance of getting me back. I know I get a lot of money back in delay repay but I would rather be on time.

I haven't used the sleeper since the take over, but it offers no loyalty scheme. Not sure what Virgin West Coast is like should I decide to switch to the other route.

 

[SaveECRewards]

I think that SaveECRewards is doing a brilliant job. The thing that really winds me right up with Virgin is not particularly that they have scrapped the scheme its self (although it does) but that they are forever crowing on about listening to customers.

Thanks for the kind words. I agree, I believe if Virgin didn't make such a fuss about listening to customers I don't think this campaign would have had the support that it did. But as Virgin like to make themselves the customers champion people hold them (rightly) to higher standards.

An example of this was their first Red Report (ask for a copy in the station, it's also online) page 11 has a page all about how they listen, learn, plan and act. Ironically there's a picture of a Nectar card on that page. Page 13 says they want to hear all views good and bad and "In fact, we’ll generally invite you to just crank the volume up to 11."

So we're doing exactly what VTEC wants us to do according to their marketing materials.

I agree BA have done an "East Coast" on their loyalty scheme. (to be fair I think BA beat Virgin to it)

Timeline was something like VTEC officially announced Nectar. I sat in rage thinking what can I do about it. Set up Save East Coast Rewards, found others to help out.

As I was just about to write a Nectar v Avios comparison BA made their announcement, the press love a bad BA story so no one was interested how Nectar was significantly worse.

The BA changes have not actually gone into effect as yet.

If you book BA flights before 28 April 2015 you'll still earn under the old rates.

Depends what journey I am doing, I will continue to book with the east coast site for thier own journeys. I know the discount offered isn't really that much but it isn't worth booking elsewhere just to prove a point on east coast advance (where the discount applies)

That I can't disagree with I always say make 3rd party bookings elsewhere, but some may choose to give up the 2% discount as it's relatively small to prove a point. As I like to book in one place I'll be avoiding booking through them unless the online discount becomes a minimum of 5% (as me booking elsewhere will cost them 5%).

The online discount is up to 10% but none of the journeys I tested on were above 2%. I originally thought this was a VTEC cut but it turned out East Coast changed from 10% to 'up to 10%' shortly after rewards launched. But as rewards were so good I hadn't noticed! Bringing that discount back to a fixed 10% on advance tickets may make some people happier.

I'm no fan of west coast, but some people like Virgin Trains so see if it suits you. I hardly used the sleeper during the Rewards years as I couldn't book sleeper on eastcoast.co.uk but I may give it a shot now too.

I use FGW not for the Nectar points but because it uses WebTIS and I already happened to be registered for it (there was some FGW offers for Amex cardholders last year). As after the Sainsbury's cuts I see no use for Nectar at all I did remove my Nectar number from my FGW account, however those who see it as 'better than nothing' can still collect their halfpenny points. As FGW didn't kill off a superior scheme I can live with the fact they use Nectar. But as they offer it on all journeys I don't see the advantage of others offering it.

 

[johntea]

Travelled from LDS - KGX Thursday evening, back tonight (Sunday evening). No ticket check on either service and the barriers still wide open at KGX.

Thought the inspections might have increased now Stagecoach / Virgin run the show, from my experience on East Coast you're generally getting a check in First Class but other than that generally not!

Here's a question do VTEC analyse all the advance ticket sales for their services? I can maybe understand the lack of actusl on board checks if 80% of the train is already 'full' prior to it actually setting off via reservations made by advance ticket sales.

 

[samuelmorris]

My past experience over the last 8 years is that whoever the TOC is the likelihood of my ticket being checked is always around 80%, the majority of the time it's checked but occasionally it isn't. I'm used to the barriers being open a lot of the time as I travel off peak mostly. On one particular occasion I had to run for the last train and so didn't have time to buy a ticket but wasn't checked, so did end up with a free journey. Not something I can say I'm proud of but the possibility is there. Under VTEC I've only had one single journey so far as I last used the line during the changeover weekend. Tickets checked then, regularly!

 

[gavin]

Any updates on the livery? do we still have the 2 sets done or have more entered service?

 

[JaJaWa]

Any updates on the livery? do we still have the 2 sets done or have more entered service?

There's 3 225 sets done and the first 125 is due mid-May.

 

[PaintYourWagon]

Any updates on the livery? do we still have the 2 sets done or have more entered service?

Try this thread in the "Traction and Rolling Stock" section:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=67481

 

[gavin]

Try this thread in the "Traction and Rolling Stock" section:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=67481

Thanks

 

[ollyrogers]

Travelled from LDS - KGX Thursday evening, back tonight (Sunday evening). No ticket check on either service and the barriers still wide open at KGX.

On the contrary I travelled KGX to LDS Friday afternoon and we had a full check commencing almost before we'd reached the Emirates!

 

[ash39]

There's 3 225 sets done and the first 125 is due mid-May.

Four sets not three.

Locos/sets are mixed up, but 91105, 91108, 91124 and 91126 are done, plus 4 sets of mk4's.

 

[Antman]

This mornings 07.00 Kings Cross to Edinburgh has been terminated at Stevenage due to a train fault

 

[Kite159]

This mornings 8:03 to Leeds has broken down just outside Kings Cross (DVT looks like it has barely cleared platform so blocking P4 to P8) 91127

 

[SaveECRewards]

So far for me everything to do with VTEC except the loyalty scheme has continued to be good. I'm still happy with the service on-board, I've not experienced delays and the fares I book seem no different (I do book at relatively short notice and therefore already missed the cheapest of the fares which is where people appear to be having problems).

So although it hasn't affected me (yet?) the number of train faults seems to have increased in Twitter since the East Coast days and there even seems to be other issues outside their control (level crossings, overhead wires, etc) that day to day seems to be more frequent than I remember with EC.

As I only really started closely monitoring their Twitter account since I started Save East Coast Rewards in January I don't have a large enough sample size to say the train faults are increasing.

My current feeling is these faults would have happened anyway, I doubt anything major with maintenance has changed just yet, can anyone confirm?

 

[Robertj21a]

So far for me everything to do with VTEC except the loyalty scheme has continued to be good. I'm still happy with the service on-board, I've not experienced delays and the fares I book seem no different (I do book at relatively short notice and therefore already missed the cheapest of the fares which is where people appear to be having problems).

So although it hasn't affected me (yet?) the number of train faults seems to have increased in Twitter since the East Coast days and there even seems to be other issues outside their control (level crossings, overhead wires, etc) that day to day seems to be more frequent than I remember with EC.

As I only really started closely monitoring their Twitter account since I started Save East Coast Rewards in January I don't have a large enough sample size to say the train faults are increasing.

My current feeling is these faults would have happened anyway, I doubt anything major with maintenance has changed just yet, can anyone confirm?

Needless to say, nothing much has changed, nor was it really likely to. I think there were a lot of 'scaremongers' who simply didn't like change, didn't like Stagecoach or didn't like anything that Virgin got involved in. In practice, it seems to have been a very professional and smooth takeover.

 

[hibtastic]

I noticed the East Midlands Trains HST at Newcastle yesterday when I was on the northbound Aberdeen service from Kings X. I didn't think it usually came this far north.

I thought all East Coast HSTs had been refurbished - there was an HST set in the platform at Newcastle which had old style HST red seats - definitely not the newer East Coast interior. Is this a one-off?

 

[387star]

I noticed the East Midlands Trains HST at Newcastle yesterday when I was on the northbound Aberdeen service from Kings X. I didn't think it usually came this far north.

I thought all East Coast HSTs had been refurbished - there was an HST set in the platform at Newcastle which had old style HST red seats - definitely not the newer East Coast interior. Is this a one-off?

Two EMT HsTs are on loan to East Coast one painted all over grey

 

[Tetchytyke]

Needless to say, nothing much has changed, nor was it really likely to. I think there were a lot of 'scaremongers' who simply didn't like change, didn't like Stagecoach or didn't like anything that Virgin got involved in. In practice, it seems to have been a very professional and smooth takeover.

It's the same management and the same staff doing the same job. Of course nothing was going to change operationally.

The cheapest price tiers of advance tickets seem to have disappeared though.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

This mornings 8:03 to Leeds has broken down just outside Kings Cross (DVT looks like it has barely cleared platform so blocking P4 to P8) 91127

That's similar to last Wedensday's (6th May) 19:00 to Edinburgh. It lost all power in gasworks tunnel and came to a sudden stand. It was already very full due to cancellations following single line working through Biggleswade after a large piece of plastic sheeting (looked like a tent to me!) got tangled in the overheads.
With no air-con and only the secondary lighting it became quite cosy!, eventually the driver isolated two traction motors and walked back to the DVT to take the set back to Kings Cross.

The cheapest price tiers of advance tickets seem to have disappeared though.

Yes, no more Newcastle - London tickets for £15 in standard class.