VTEC: Missing the first class quiet coach already!

[stuart]

The title says it all, really. Just an hour into a seven hour journey, and surrounded by people who cannot possibly be out of contact with their office for ten minutes. Wonder if there's any chance of the VTEC decision to remove first class quiet coach provision being reversed by the new operator? For me, the change represents another point lost in the rail versus air battle.

 

[yorksrob]

Are people particularly quiet on planes ?

 

[stuart]

No, but if it's going to be noisy anyway, let's get it over with quickly!

 

[^BG]

The Azuma is going to have less 1st class space now than you currently have. As much as people may like the quiet coach, ain't no way they can get away with putting a quiet coach on the new trains.

 

[stuart]

I suspected the decision might have something to do with the new fleet. Do you think they will keep a quiet coach in standard? Might find myself sacrificing seat comfort in favour of quietness.

 

[stuart]

It actually amazes me the amount of confidential information people broadcast to fellow passengers. Earlier on we had a firm's business plans being discussed, and the woman in the seat behind me has just given the entire coach her credit card details, including the security code.

 

[Deerfold]

The Azuma is going to have less 1st class space now than you currently have. As much as people may like the quiet coach, ain't no way they can get away with putting a quiet coach on the new trains.

It does seem as though anything that might be seen as a negative with the new trains is being implemented first so they don't get the blame.

 

[al78]

Are people particularly quiet on planes ?

I fail to see what relevance the noise level on planes has to the noisiness of 1st class on VTEC, but on the limited number of plane journeys I have undertaken, the passenger related noise tends to be less than on the train.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_as_bad_as

 

[Robertj21a]

I've found that the Quiet coach is more trouble than it's worth given that many people simply won't keep quiet themselves but are happy to Tut Tut everyone else.

 

[Deerfold]

Are people particularly quiet on planes ?

They tend to make fewer phone calls.

 

[greyman42]

It actually amazes me the amount of confidential information people broadcast to fellow passengers. Earlier on we had a firm's business plans being discussed, and the woman in the seat behind me has just given the entire coach her credit card details, including the security code.

That beggars belief !

 

[Warwick]

Are people particularly quiet on planes ?

Compared with trains they're positively silent.

 

[stephens]

That beggars belief !

Not to me it doesn't!
I've heard personal details such as bank details, passwords (spelled out), dates of birth, NI numbers, burglar alarm codes as well as company confidential information. First class coaches must sometimes be a would-be identity thief's paradise.

 

[stuart]

Well, after the train emptied a bit today, I took a walk through to coach B, the standard quiet coach at the front of the train. A real oasis of calm, with a couple of dozen people sitting quietly, mostly reading books. The seats felt firm but comfortable (I can live without the leather covering and the recline) with plenty of legroom, and mostly in the "airline" format which felt nicely private. I might have to give it a go next time - and the saving in cost would more than compensate for the loss of the free catering, the standard of which has in any case been in decline for some time now.

VTEC may once again have scored an own goal.

 

[SaveECRewards]

The Azuma is going to have less 1st class space now than you currently have. As much as people may like the quiet coach, ain't no way they can get away with putting a quiet coach on the new trains.

Hey @^BG you're not supposed to say that, I can though

On the Azuma the proposed carriage layouts I've seen have the only quiet coach (Standard) in coach H which is present in 9 car and 2x5 car formations but not a single 5 car formation. If that's the case the standard class 5 car Azumas will not be able to have permanent quiet coach signage and will depend on the info display to tell people.


You're meant to give the official view: "We conducted a survey and it showed very few of you wanted a quiet coach. As we always listen to our customers we decided to remove this quiet coach!"

I got this survey and it asked what things you thought were the most important aspects of first class and listed things like more space, recline, catering, free wifi, quiet coach. Most of us will rate space/catering over the quiet coach (otherwise we'd just book standard), it doesn't mean we don't want the quiet coach just that we value the other items more.

If they really wanted to know who wanted the quiet coach there's the reservation data for coach K (J on HSTs).

As @Deerfold says the timing is so we don't associate it with the Azuma.

On that same survey I also got the impression that they're thinking of getting rid of the chef for the evening meal (branded scaremongering from one of VTECs senior managers, but now we won't know if that's the case as whatever happens under LNER might not be what VTEC were going to do) and also scrap the complimentary spirits leaving the complimentary alcohol to beer and wine.

 

[takno]

If they really wanted to know who wanted the quiet coach there's the reservation data for coach K (J on HSTs).

If I'm travelling in first I always sit in K because I like getting served first. I mildly dislike quiet coaches

 

[SaveECRewards]

If I'm travelling in first I always sit in K because I like getting served first. I mildly dislike quiet coaches

The quiet coach in K or J still gave you some advantages:

• It meant if you either used a non-VTEC booking engine or the VTEC seat selector wasn't working you could ensure you were reserved in coach K or J by selecting quiet coach.
• Without the quiet coach being there they could decide in future that it's better to start allocating reservations starting from near the kitchen rather than starting in coach M.

 

[stuart]

I didn't get a survey to complete, but I did hear a headline result that "only x% of people want a quiet coach". I can't remember exactly what x was, but I do remember thinking that (on an HST anyway, which is the unit that serves my route) only 27 out of (27 + 48 + 48) first class seats are in the quiet coach anyway. That's 22%. And in standard (without getting down to detailed arithmetic), it's one coach out of six, or 17%. In other words, x doesn't need to be very large (certainly nowhere near 50%) to indicate that provision matches demand.

 

[Deafdoggie]

My own, anecdotal, view is, that quiet coaches are always carrying fresh air around. Whilst the rest of the train remains heavily loaded. This was XC problem when they had a quiet coach on voyagers 3 coaches of sardines, one with empty seats. It made no sense at all.
Personally, if I want peace and quiet I go by car, but part of the fun of train travel is the social aspect. Why sit is silence as if in a Library? Very boring, give me conversation and families playing any day. I enjoy overhearing everyones phone calls, relax and enjoy it.

 

[James90012]

But if the First class coach was full of people doing business - clearly this is one of the advantages of rail over air in the first place - it is those people who would not want a quiet coach, which would seem to outweigh those who do want one!

Personally I always book Quiet coaches in standard class, even if there is some noise it's still better than the heavily reserved Coach Cs of the world.

 

[83G/84D]

I am on coach E on a GWR HST heading out if Cornwall. Relatively quiet so far except for a bedraggled looking Scotsman who is rather worse for wear through alcohol and has a personal hygiene problem!

Yuck.

 

[takno]

The quiet coach in K or J still gave you some advantages:

• It meant if you either used a non-VTEC booking engine or the VTEC seat selector wasn't working you could ensure you were reserved in coach K or J by selecting quiet coach.
• Without the quiet coach being there they could decide in future that it's better to start allocating reservations starting from near the kitchen rather than starting in coach M.

Agreed completely. I was just suggesting that people choosing to book/sit in the quiet coach couldn't be used as a measure of support for quiet coaches, because there are good reasons to sit in there which are nothing to do with it being quiet. To be honest I've always preferred standard for ambience, and only get first for the catering and if I'm on expenses

 

[SaveECRewards]

But if the First class coach was full of people doing business - clearly this is one of the advantages of rail over air in the first place - it is those people who would not want a quiet coach, which would seem to outweigh those who do want one!

Personally I always book Quiet coaches in standard class, even if there is some noise it's still better than the heavily reserved Coach Cs of the world.

Not everyone doing business needs to be constantly on the phone. To be fair I only work on the train when I really have to. I'd rather relax and enjoy the views with a tea/beer (depending on time of day and what I'm doing at the other end), but when I'm working I'm more productive if I have an excuse not to answer the phone or do a conference call. There's text based means to communicate and I can work more efficiently if I can just turn my phone into DND.

It's the same in the actual office. I'm more productive staying a bit later when most people have left as there's less disturbance. If on train WiFi becomes faster in future I could probably work better in a quiet coach on the train than I could in my own office.

The only things banned in a quiet coach are conversations on a phone/other device (as people tend to talk louder on their phones particularly when signal is fluctuating) and noise from devices. It's bad manners playing music or a TV show throw your laptop/tablet speakers even when not in a quiet coach. So the only difference between the two coaches is one should be that you don't use your phone to talk at your seat and the other allows it.

Talking has never been banned in the quiet coach, although discretion should be observed (e.g. large groups celebrating should probably avoid this carriage)

 

[gallafent]

The Azuma is going to have less 1st class space now than you currently have. As much as people may like the quiet coach, ain't no way they can get away with putting a quiet coach on the new trains.

Hmm. There is some extremely subtle “quiet coach” markings in standard class in the GWR five-coach IETs, so they clearly think that having 2/7 ish of the standard class accomodation as “quiet coach” is reasonable (as do I!). The signage is far less noticeable than on the HSTs, to the extent that I don't think many people even notice it, though. Certainly the coach A (standard class quiet coach) environment on an IET seems a lot noisier than that on an HST to me. I don't know if they have a “quiet” section in first class, but given that there's only about 1 carriage of first class seating in total (spread across D and E) it seems unlikely.

 

[nat67]

No, but if it's going to be noisy anyway, let's get it over with quickly!

Well on VTEC HST's the quiet coach is next to the Power car so how can it be quiet with the traction motors and engine noise, also the corridor squeak.

 

[43096]

Well on VTEC HST's the quiet coach is next to the Power car so how can it be quiet with the traction motors and engine noise, also the corridor squeak.

Excuse me whilst I pick myself off the floor from laughing. Engine noise? With an MTU power car?

You might have had a point 15 years ago, when power cars had the full "orchestra" of Valenta engine, Napier turbocharger, Marston cooler group and traction motors. Like this:

 

[cactustwirly]

Hey @^BG you're not supposed to say that, I can though

On the Azuma the proposed carriage layouts I've seen have the only quiet coach (Standard) in coach H which is present in 9 car and 2x5 car formations but not a single 5 car formation. If that's the case the standard class 5 car Azumas will not be able to have permanent quiet coach signage and will depend on the info display to tell people.
View attachment 47268

You're meant to give the official view: "We conducted a survey and it showed very few of you wanted a quiet coach. As we always listen to our customers we decided to remove this quiet coach!"

I got this survey and it asked what things you thought were the most important aspects of first class and listed things like more space, recline, catering, free wifi, quiet coach. Most of us will rate space/catering over the quiet coach (otherwise we'd just book standard), it doesn't mean we don't want the quiet coach just that we value the other items more.

If they really wanted to know who wanted the quiet coach there's the reservation data for coach K (J on HSTs).

As @Deerfold says the timing is so we don't associate it with the Azuma.

On that same survey I also got the impression that they're thinking of getting rid of the chef for the evening meal (branded scaremongering from one of VTECs senior managers, but now we won't know if that's the case as whatever happens under LNER might not be what VTEC were going to do) and also scrap the complimentary spirits leaving the complimentary alcohol to beer and wine.

I believe coach A in the GWR sets is a quiet coach.

 

[sprinterguy]

Well on VTEC HST's the quiet coach is next to the Power car so how can it be quiet with the traction motors and engine noise, also the corridor squeak.

That's missing the point somewhat that the "Quiet coach" designation relates to the behaviour and conduct of passengers, not to the unavoidable ambient noise of travel (It's the "quiet" coach, not the "silent" coach). I've never considered engine noise to be particularly noticeable from within the carriage on an HST, anyway.

 

[stuart]

On the Azuma the proposed carriage layouts I've seen have the only quiet coach (Standard) in coach H which is present in 9 car and 2x5 car formations but not a single 5 car formation.

What bright spark came up with the idea of putting the quiet coach in the middle of the train where everyone will be tramping through? At least as coach B (thinking of the HST sets) it's a dead end, with no passing footfall.

 

[nat67]

That's missing the point somewhat that the "Quiet coach" designation relates to the behaviour and conduct of passengers, not to the unavoidable ambient noise of travel (It's the "quiet" coach, not the "silent" coach). I've never considered engine noise to be particularly noticeable from within the carriage on an HST, anyway.

I guess, I do notice it a little but mainly the squeak of the corridors make it noisy. I know a while back I was on a HST in the TGS on a GWR service and a woman opposite said to fishquinn who was with me to be quiet and he told her its quite coach not silent coach. She had loud music on before hand and the vestiblue windows where open and the noise of the train I was surprised she could here us talking quietly to each other.