Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

[gareth950]

I believe it was the Welsh people who voted for devolution and the establishment of a Welsh Government and that Government which sought powers to run the railways in Wales (and bits of England). I assume that's the Government you refer to?

I'm still of the opinion that cross-border services should be the responsibility of the UK (NB Not English) Government.

Last October 2016, a statement was released by the DfT saying that there would be no splitting of responsibility of cross border services, with Welsh Govt responsible for specifying all cross border services, as the current ATW franchise, with Welsh Govt having to be accountable to MPs in the English regions within which cross border services operate. This TFO seems to reverse this decision, which is no surprise with Grayling in charge.

My artificial borders reference was to the current Conservative led UK government. Just look at the farce over Northern Ireland. It's as if the Conservatives want a 'hard border' separating English and Welsh rail services. I'm sure Grayling would much prefer passengers changing trains at Abergavenny on the Marches and Shrewsbury on mid Wales services that currently extend to Birmingham, just so he can have his pure Welsh and pure English services.

 

[CapitalStar378]

Meaning what? I thought the way the franchising system works, TOCs are entitled to bid for whatever rolling stock is available at the time the franchise is being let. E.g. Northern 'poaching' 150s DMUs from GWR and Scotrail 'poaching' HSTs from GWR. Yes, I know technically they weren't poached as they were due to be freed up by electrification - but my point is these trains were up for grabs at the time of the Northern and Scotrail franchises being let and so were taken. If DMUs or EMUs are coming off lease and are up for grabs, why can't the Welsh franchise 'poach' these units before the next franchise in the franchising schedule is due to be awarded? Isn't this discrimination against Wales? Unless I've misunderstood it seems like it is.

I'm not sure why the Wales & Borders franchise won't be allowed to benefit from rolling stock cascades. It already has the oldest and worst trains in the UK. It smacks of Grayling's petty minded political tit for tat cr@p, which also ended TfL's plans to take over London's metro lines. It was actually leaked that it was because he didn't want a Labour Mayor involved. Probably a similar situation for Wales with it not being very Tory.

Sad and pathetic really.

 

[ag51ruk]

Last October 2016, a statement was released by the DfT saying that there would be no splitting of responsibility of cross border services, with Welsh Govt responsible for specifying all cross border services, as the current ATW franchise, with Welsh Govt having to be accountable to MPs in the English regions within which cross border services operate. This TFO seems to reverse this decision, which is no surprise with Grayling in charge.

My artificial borders reference was to the current Conservative led UK government. Just look at the farce over Northern Ireland. It's as if the Conservatives want a 'hard border' separating English and Welsh rail services. I'm sure Grayling would much prefer passengers changing trains at Abergavenny on the Marches and Shrewsbury on mid Wales services that currently extend to Birmingham, just so he can have his pure Welsh and pure English services.

You're not reading the document the same way that I am. The "No poaching" clause absolutely allows cascades of rolling stock, and the references to English services appear to be designed to protect them from being reduced or given less attention than services in Wales under the new franchise. The Welsh Government will still specify and control them, as long as they continue to meet those standards.

 

[ag51ruk]

I'm not sure why the Wales & Borders franchise won't be allowed to benefit from rolling stock cascades. It already has the oldest and worst trains in the UK. It smacks of Grayling's petty minded political tit for tat cr@p, which also ended TfL's plans to take over London's metro lines. It was actually leaked that it was because he didn't want a Labour Mayor involved. Probably a similar situation for Wales with it not being very Tory.

Sad and pathetic really.

They can benefit from rolling stock cascades - they just can't lease stock currently in use with another TOC which would then leave that TOC unable to run its own services. Section 11.7 of Schedule 1 is clear enough, I think, and is the same provision written into all recent franchise agreements

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Meaning what? I thought the way the franchising system works, TOCs are entitled to bid for whatever rolling stock is available at the time the franchise is being let. E.g. Northern 'poaching' 150s DMUs from GWR and Scotrail 'poaching' HSTs from GWR. Yes, I know technically they weren't poached as they were due to be freed up by electrification - but my point is these trains were up for grabs at the time of the Northern and Scotrail franchises being let and so were taken. If DMUs or EMUs are coming off lease and are up for grabs, why can't the Welsh franchise 'poach' these units before the next franchise in the franchising schedule is due to be awarded? Isn't this discrimination against Wales? Unless I've misunderstood it seems like it is.

It's simply to stop disruptive transfers like TPE's 170s to Chiltern, where TPE could not commercially extend the leases before the new franchise was awarded.
ie the donor franchise has to agree first.
The same sort of clause was built into at least the Northern and TPE ITTs.
In terms of this franchise, W&B can't poach (say) EMT's 158s with a short lease left, unless EMT agrees.

So what about cross-border services then? E.g. South Wales - Manchester on the Marches? Welsh Govt is responsible for specifying the service as far as Abergavenny and the DfT is responsible for specifying the service on the same train to Manchester?
I thought all this nonsense of splitting the responsibility of English & Welsh cross border services had been sorted?
This government does like messing around with borders and putting up artificial barriers between countries doesn't it.

As I read it, the DfT will allow the WG to specify/let the whole of the franchise, with certain provisos in England.
Cross-border services legally remain the responsibility of the UK gov (as for Scotland), but are conditionally devolved to Wales in this case.
Unlike today, the W&B franchise will have to account for English services separately from the Welsh ones (specification, performance, financial etc).
English fare regulation will have to follow the DfT rules rather than WG's.
Maybe there will be a use for the unused offices in Chester and Shrewsbury stations after all.

 

[Envoy]

Surprised they aren't using a Welsh name e.g. "Rheilffordd Cymru".

'Wales & Borders' is understandable by everybody who speaks English - the international language of the World. Most people - including the 80% of the people of Wales who do not speak Welsh, would not have a clue as to the meaning of “Rheilffordd Cymru”. It should also be noted that considerable parts of this franchise cover English territory including routes to the great cities of Birmingham & Manchester.

 

[Bletchleyite]

'Wales & Borders' is understandable by everybody who speaks English - the international language of the World. Most people - including the 80% of the people of Wales who do not speak Welsh, would not have a clue as to the meaning of “Rheilffordd Cymru”. It should also be noted that considerable parts of this franchise cover English territory including routes to the great cities of Birmingham & Manchester.

Does anyone need to know what it means? It's a train, you can tell that by looking at it.

 

[Philip]

"One minute dwell at Oxford Rd and Piccadily" strongly suggests that end door Class 175's are out the equation for North Wales to Manchester runs. Queue speculation about new build or Class 185s plus upsetting poster Rhydagaled! Likewise minimizing dwell at Crewe in my experience only having 4 end doors on 2 car 175's working Cardiff to Manchester turns are a cause of this.

If reforming 185s into 2 and 4 coach trains isn't possible, then a fleet of 22 three coach 185s could still cover both routes into Manchester pretty well, providing first class is taken out and also that Manchester to South Wales services are cut back to Swansea and thus only need 9 diagrams. Out of 20 in service on a given day; 9 for Manchester-Swansea; 7 for Manchester-North Wales; 4 for strengthening the busier services either over the full diagram or just on the busier sections (ie. Shrewsbury to Manchester, Chester to Manchester, Hereford to Cardiff).

It does raise the question about where you'd put the 175s if 185s took over their Manchester duties. I doubt even an hourly Holyhead-Cardiff service would make use of more than half of the whole fleet.

 

[berneyarms]

People cope with Irish Rail & Iarnród Éireann in Ireland ok, despite low numbers speaking Irish, not sure why a bi-lingual name would cause that much issue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You could have Rheilffyrdd Cymru in large text and "Wales & Borders Railways" in small text underneath.

Actually, that's exactly what I'd do. Probably a green-based livery with some very much toned-down red accenting. (Not like the garish old Valley Lines colour scheme).

 

[Envoy]

You could have Rheilffyrdd Cymru in large text and "Wales & Borders Railways" in small text underneath.

Actually, that's exactly what I'd do. Probably a green-based livery with some very much toned-down red accenting. (Not like the garish old Valley Lines colour scheme).

Appalling - relegating the use of the English Language!

 

[northwichcat]

Meaning what? I thought the way the franchising system works, TOCs are entitled to bid for whatever rolling stock is available at the time the franchise is being let. E.g. Northern 'poaching' 150s DMUs from GWR and Scotrail 'poaching' HSTs from GWR. Yes, I know technically they weren't poached as they were due to be freed up by electrification - but my point is these trains were up for grabs at the time of the Northern and Scotrail franchises being let and so were taken. If DMUs or EMUs are coming off lease and are up for grabs, why can't the Welsh franchise 'poach' these units before the next franchise in the franchising schedule is due to be awarded? Isn't this discrimination against Wales? Unless I've misunderstood it seems like it is.

Most of the Anglia 170s go off-lease in 2019 and the XC 170s go off-lease in 2019. The Anglia 170s are being released because they are acquiring new trains, so they could go to W&B subject to a lease being agreed with the ROSCO but even then the cascade might be delayed if Anglia don't get their new FLIRTs in service on time (just like a batch of GWR 150s didn't transfer to Northern in September.) The XC 170s are off-lease simply because that's when the current franchise ends, W&B would be blocked from leasing those as it would leave the next XC franchise short of trains.

 

[Dai Corner]

Appalling - relegating the use of the English Language!

Or you could spend ££££s on some sort of dynamic display which swapped the prominence of the two languages as trains crossed the border

 

[northwichcat]

You could have Rheilffyrdd Cymru in large text and "Wales & Borders Railways" in small text underneath.

Actually, that's exactly what I'd do. Probably a green-based livery with some very much toned-down red accenting. (Not like the garish old Valley Lines colour scheme).

Do the PRM requirements specify a minimum size for the operator name on the side of the train? If they do both the Welsh and English will have to be in at least that size.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do the PRM requirements specify a minimum size for the operator name on the side of the train? If they do both the Welsh and English will have to be in at least that size.

I can't see why they would, given that having it on there *at all* isn't mandatory.

 

[northwichcat]

I can't see why they would, given that having it on there *at all* isn't mandatory.

Having a toilet on many services isn't mandatory but if you do provide a toilet there's PRM requirements for one.

 

[Llanigraham]

'Wales & Borders' is understandable by everybody who speaks English - the international language of the World. Most people - including the 80% of the people of Wales who do not speak Welsh, would not have a clue as to the meaning of “Rheilffordd Cymru”. It should also be noted that considerable parts of this franchise cover English territory including routes to the great cities of Birmingham & Manchester.

As usual, the english trying to tell us what they think we know!
I suggest that you do some research before making such comments; you might be surprised by the results!

 

[ag51ruk]

As usual, the english trying to tell us what they think we know!
I suggest that you do some research before making such comments; you might be surprised by the results!

23% of people speak some Welsh according to a government funded report in 2014, so not that far off?

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/state-welsh-language-number-people-8538272.amp

 

[northwichcat]

The 2011 census showed 19% of the population of Wales say they could speak Welsh, compared to 21% in 2001. However, the number who know what Cymru means would be considerably higher - I've known what that means for years, even before the W&B franchise started putting it on trains.

 

[Dai Corner]

As usual, the english trying to tell us what they think we know!
I suggest that you do some research before making such comments; you might be surprised by the results!

The Welsh Government's figures show 27.9% of the population say they can speak Welsh but it varies considerably from 71.1% in Gwynedd to 16.7% in Blaenau Gwent. Powys is slightly below the average at 26.7%.

 

[Dai Corner]

Three different answers posted within five minutes.

No wonder the issue is so controversial! As I predicted earlier in this thread the language used in the branding will probably provoke more discussion than rolling stock or timetables in some quarters.

 

[northwichcat]

Three different answers posted within five minutes.

No wonder the issue is so controversial!

Have a lot of Welsh speakers who were living outside of Wales returned home in the last few years?
Have a lot of people learnt Welsh in the last few years?
Have a lot of English only speakers left Wales in the last few years?

If none of the above are true I don't see how the Welsh government have come up with a figure which is considerably higher than the 2011 census data.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The Town Councils in Gwynedd can get very upset about it but here in Newtown I can probably count on one hand the times in the last year anyone has even spoken in Welsh to but a ticket or other customer related matters.

 

[northwichcat]

I've just checked and apparently the Welsh government figures are obtained by asking for a 'Yes/No' answer to 'Do you speak Welsh?' The census figures are obtained by someone declaring they can speak Welsh when they are asked what language they usually speak. So perhaps 19% speaking Welsh as their main language and a further 8% speaking some Welsh in addition to English is a fair conclusion?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think it's about speaking Welsh any more than I expect many Cornishmen speak Kernow (or whatever it's called). It's about identity.

How many Scottish people speak Gaelic? Yet it's on the branding there.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

"Rheilffordd o Gymru ac y Mers" would seem to cover it, if I've got the right Welsh expression.

 

[northwichcat]

How many Scottish people speak Gaelic? Yet it's on the branding there.

In small letters under a English language logo and even then not under every logo on the train.

I have no problem with both Welsh and English being used on cross border services. However, for services fully within England or at English stations if there's going to be a language used as well as English I don't think it should automatically be Welsh, just because the service is provided by an operator who also provides services in Wales.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Have a lot of Welsh speakers who were living outside of Wales returned home in the last few years?
Have a lot of people learnt Welsh in the last few years?
Have a lot of English only speakers left Wales in the last few years?

If none of the above are true I don't see how the Welsh government have come up with a figure which is considerably higher than the 2011 census data.

The problem is essentially since devolution the percentage of senior decision makers who are Welsh Language speakers is disproportionate to the general populace and an over emphasis on promoting it is a result. Also I believe it easier to run around promoting Welsh language than addressing complex deep seated problems that require time and effort to solve - is something of a comfort blanket for them.

 

[Envoy]

As usual, the english trying to tell us what they think we know!
I suggest that you do some research before making such comments; you might be surprised by the results!

Well, it would appear from the comments that followed that I was pretty well spot on. What leads you to deduce that I am English? Many of the non Welsh speaking majority I meet in Wales are really fed up with the Welsh Government following the policy of the Welsh Language Society in trying to force the use of the Welsh Language. Now I see that all the roads signs are being altered to put Welsh first - even in the areas which for hundreds of years have been English speaking. Even the massive electronic signs on the M4 in Monmouthshire now tell of hazards ahead first in Welsh.

It should be noted that Cardiff has 16 high schools of which only 3 teach everything (apart form English) in Welsh. So, no great demand from the populous of the Welsh capital to switch to Welsh!
I also note that many of the members of the Welsh Government have to put on headphones every time somebody speaks Welsh. So, even they it would appear have no desire to learn this difficult language. (You can check them out on BBC 2 Wales at 1.45pm today).

 

[gareth950]

It's inevitable that the signage on the outside and inside of the trains will be bilingual. And expect any automated announcements on any new trains to be bilingual as well. Look at the fuss that was kicked up recently when GWR didn't introduce bilingual announcements on the 800s on the Welsh side of the severn tunnel.

It will also soon be compulsory for anyone who works in the Welsh Govt or Welsh Assembly to be able to speak Welsh, which I should imagine will exclude a lot of people from the job.