Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

[JetStream]

The BBC is also reporting a 10 day delay before any details are reported, but i can't understand where this is coming from. All other announcements have given all the details re new services, amounts of rolling stock expected to be ordered (although not the builder, etc on the day of the announcement, not after the standstill period. Most famously we were told what First had planned for the West Coast franchise in 2012 before Virgin announced it was going to appeal.

It's a 10 day wait if the other bidder appeals. This rarely (never?) happens on the railway, so assuming they accept it, all the info could come out on Wednesday

 

[John R]

That would make sense. Except how did that work with the West Coast franchise. We got to hear about First's plans for new rolling stock and services on the day, but Virgin appealed? And the rest as they say is history...

 

[Gareth Marston]

The bidder's plans may have changed post-bid, as the whole process is more of a negotiation than a normal franchise letting; politics is likely to have had an even bigger effect than normal. Still, there's only the art of the possible - which is worse politically, getting rid of all Pacers by 2019 by throwing in a few 230s to make up the numbers, or running a bunch of Pacers with the toilets locked out?

Its not a question of spot hiring some D trains for a few months until the CAF factory in Newport starts churning stuff out. For a start there are not sidings full of them at Long Marston apart from the few prototypes and the Marston Vale order that's all they have committed to. They are not going to the expense of converting more unless there is guaranteed payback. As has been said before Vivarail are in it for commercial reasons they are not a charity to sort out devolved Governments with problems. They will want payback and that means a medium to long term lease arrangement and that means £ and also commitment from Transport for Wales and the opportunity cost of not purchasing other things.

Which line did you say would still be using them in 2025?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Other than the WAG Express, though, I can't see a single ATW long-distance service (and many of the non-long-distance ones too) for which a Class 170 wouldn't be suitable. None of them are true InterCity in the manner of something like VTWC, they are really tri-purpose services - local/commuter, regional and IC - and so a unit like a Class 170 (or 185 subject to the weight being an issue, or 195, or whatever Stadler might come up with) with a commuter door layout for fast boarding and alighting but an InterCity quality seating arrangement and ample luggage stacks would be just about perfect

If 175s aren't suitable for the Llandudno services because of the door arrangement and narrow vestibules clogging things up at Oxford Road and Chester, then you can make the same case for the Manchester-South Wales services too at Crewe and Shrewsbury. I can't comment on the stations further down. I think people make a mistake in classing the Manchester-South Wales as an intercity service, it isn't: it is in the regional express category yes but it very much serves as a commuter service too during the peak hours, e.g. Manchester-Crewe-Shrewsbury, Hereford-Newport-Cardiff. So a 185 would have its own advantages over the 175 even for this route.

I very much disagree. Yes the franchise's Regional Express routes (and yes, only Gerald is INTERCITY) do serve commuter markets but:

• you could perhaps make the same argument for some INTERCITY services, like Bristol-Paddington (which also carries a fair number of commuters from Reading to London I believe)
  
• I feel that, where a train serves different markets, the standard of rolling stock should be designed to cater for the market with the HIGHEST comfort requirements. Using outer-suburban stock like 170s or 185s on Regional Express services is a 'lowest common denominator'* approach and I disagree with it

* not sure that's the expression I'm looking for, but it's what came to mind.

Nottingham-Cardiff is certainly in the same catagory as Manchester-Cardiff/Swansea; both are regional express and serve commuter markets, and it was a journey from Cardiff to Nottingham that set me against 170s and the like (and not my experience either, but one of my brothers (who is not a railway enthusist) who came back after that journey and told me 'the doors were in the wrong place').

I think people unnecessarily get hung up about door positions. It's the rest of the interior that's more important - good, supportive and soft enough seating and comfortable spacing, plenty of tables and seatback tables in airline seating - not the doors.

It's harder to do all those things, plus ensuring the seats are aligned with windows and getting a good number of seats in each carriage, when you have wide doors interrupting the saloon. You need to worry about dwell times when you are calling at every station, the route has lots of them and alot of them aren't just rural halts with one or two pax getting on/off; it should not be a concern with limited-stop services.

Punctuality nose dives due to extended station dwell as soon as you get 158 formations dropping down to 2 car, but that's more of a quantity of rolling stock issue though. I traveled a lot to Cardiff on the 0719 ex Shrewsbury (0425 ex Holyhead) it was diagrammed a 3 car Class 175 and the six doors usually did the business fine at Ludlow and Leominster when the educational commuters got on in force.

Thank you; if you really have problems with dwell time on regional express services chances are you need longer trains, not a suburban door layout.

which is worse politically, getting rid of all Pacers by 2019 by throwing in a few 230s to make up the numbers, or running a bunch of Pacers with the toilets locked out?

Tricky question; what about the third option of having a plan to replace Pacers with 769s but the 769s arrive late and the Pacers are granted a derrogation (allowing the toilets to remain unlocked) until enough 769s are available? None are going to be politically attractive, but which is the least bad option?

 

[Gareth Marston]

If 175s aren't suitable for the Llandudno services because of the door arrangement and narrow vestibules clogging things up at Oxford Road and Chester, then you can make the same case for the Manchester-South Wales services too at Crewe and Shrewsbury. I can't comment on the stations further down. I think people make a mistake in classing the Manchester-South Wales as an intercity service, it isn't: it is in the regional express category yes but it very much serves as a commuter service too during the peak hours, e.g. Manchester-Crewe-Shrewsbury, Hereford-Newport-Cardiff. So a 185 would have its own advantages over the 175 even for this route.

The Marches is the quickest and no changes route between Manchester and Cardiff and Valleys, two of the UK's Metropolitan areas with one million plus population. End to end its 3 hours and up to 25 minutes depending on stopping pattern so looking at it from an economic/ geographic point of view it does need linkage and the Marches is the correct route. A lot of the traffic at the southern end is people changing at Newport for London also so there is a healthy amount of long distance InterCity style passengers and the dynamic is different than further north. Most of the issues with InterCity DMU stock is probably down to short formations of 2 car units being used.

North Wales to South Wales - what little of it there is -is by definition long distance travelers.

The 185's main advantage is the small first class section - there is a market for it- it will give the genuine longer distance traveler a choice of traveling in more comfort at a premium.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I very much disagree. Yes the franchise's Regional Express routes (and yes, only Gerald is INTERCITY) do serve commuter markets but:

• you could perhaps make the same argument for some INTERCITY services, like Bristol-Paddington (which also carries a fair number of commuters from Reading to London I believe)
  
• I feel that, where a train serves different markets, the standard of rolling stock should be designed to cater for the market with the HIGHEST comfort requirements. Using outer-suburban stock like 170s or 185s on Regional Express services is a 'lowest common denominator'* approach and I disagree with it

Have you, out of interest, travelled on a "Chiltern Mainline" Class 170? If not, I suggest you do then revisit that question.

Regarding Reading, I've made my views there known on many occasions in other threads, but to sum up my view is that Reading needs a dedicated 12-car fast EMU service and Paddington-Reading passengers need banning from the HSTs/800s entirely.

Seat comfort has nothing to do with door positioning.

It's harder to do all those things, plus ensuring the seats are aligned with windows and getting a good number of seats in each carriage, when you have wide doors interrupting the saloon.

Again, have you travelled on a "Chiltern Mainline" Class 170? The Class 170 is sensibly designed with a window bay spacing that works for either a table bay or two rows of airline seats with good spacing. The ScotRail and Chiltern units are laid out like this and they are really comfortable.

I just don't get why people get hung up on where the doors are with regard to comfort. After all, the BR Mk1 and non-aircon Mk2 had a centre door with two smaller saloons.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Have you, out of interest, travelled on a "Chiltern Mainline" Class 170? If not, I suggest you do then revisit that question.

Regarding Reading, I've made my views there known on many occasions in other threads, but to sum up my view is that Reading needs a dedicated 12-car fast EMU service and Paddington-Reading passengers need banning from the HSTs/800s entirely.

Seat comfort has nothing to do with door positioning.



Again, have you travelled on a "Chiltern Mainline" Class 170? The Class 170 is sensibly designed with a window bay spacing that works for either a table bay or two rows of airline seats with good spacing. The ScotRail and Chiltern units are laid out like this and they are really comfortable.

I just don't get why people get hung up on where the doors are with regard to comfort. After all, the BR Mk1 and non-aircon Mk2 had a centre door with two smaller saloons.

Ive traveled Chiltern Mainline quite a bit and of course you cant guarantee getting a Mk3 set - I find a Class 168 superior to a 175 in most respects except in terms of heavy luggage the 168 layout is not really designed for those that do have a lot with them. Having to leave a large suitcase next to the large doors and then "manage" what happens at every station is not ideal by a long shot.
My experience of 185's has been predominantly in First Class we've been happy to pay a premium price and book AP tickets between Manchester and York even though we could go free on Cross Country via Birmingham. TPE are saying that 10% of their customers are 1st class - the First Class section has partition doors so the external doors are no issue plus plenty of luggage space.

 

[mde]

It's a 10 day wait if the other bidder appeals. This rarely (never?) happens on the railway, so assuming they accept it, all the info could come out on Wednesday

This would be a further continuation of the somewhat remarkable procurement process the Welsh Government have undertaken. Remarkable for the utter lack of transparency, not for any positive reason…

 

[northwichcat]

The BBC is also reporting a 10 day delay before any details are reported, but i can't understand where this is coming from.

Maybe to keep the RMT quiet while the politicians are on recess. Then they'll announce driver only light rail vehicles for South Wales Metro and that they've kept their promise of a guard on every train.

 

[northwichcat]

TPE are saying that 10% of their customers are 1st class

Are 1st class, not travel 1st class? Is that a polite way of saying 90% of our passengers are scallies?

 

[Gareth Marston]

This would be a further continuation of the somewhat remarkable procurement process the Welsh Government have undertaken. Remarkable for the utter lack of transparency, not for any positive reason…

It's only engineered supreme scepticism to the eventual outcome amongst everyone I've talked to for a considerable time now. People are expecting the ball to be dropped.......

 

[Gareth Marston]

Are 1st class, not travel 1st class? Is that a polite way of saying 90% of our passengers are scallies?

No 10!% of TPE customers are prepared to pay extra for enhanced facilities, a ratio I think could be replicated on the Marches.

 

[northwichcat]

No 10!% of TPE customers are prepared to pay extra for enhanced facilities, a ratio I think could be replicated on the Marches.

More seriously around 10% of the seats on the Desiros are 1st class and the high seat occupancy level in standard is something that helps ensure the 1st class seats are well used.

 

[Bletchleyite]

More seriously around 10% of the seats on the Desiros are 1st class and the high seat occupancy level in standard is something that helps ensure the 1st class seats are well used.

Though I really resent paying for 1st for that reason on anything other than a short distance commuter train.

 

[Gareth Marston]

At over 3 hours Manchester to Cardiff business travellers may not want to share space with a multitude of ever changing more locally focussed flows en route. There's definitely the affluence from Ludlow to Abergavenny to justify even if just connectiing to London trains at Newport.

My ideal spec would be a 4 car unit with the air conditioning and seat / table window alignment of a Chiltern 168 with the luggage space of an ATW 158 and a first class section of a TPE 185 with the pragmatism of a TPe Nova set whereby the wheelchair users go in first class and there's only one accessible toilet with its space hogging.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Some teaser "information" covered by the BBC:
They helpfully show a pic of 2x395 (I think).
Looks like we can look forward to some Welsh Government sandwiches in future, if they are taking over catering...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-44197298

The new Wales rail franchise holder will be held to account on issues like punctuality, cleanliness and service quality - or they will not get paid.
The head of Transport for Wales (TfW) said the contract includes key elements of service provision not included before.
The winner - also new South Wales Metro operator - is expected to be unveiled in the next 24 hours.
Welsh Government ministers are discussing final details on Tuesday.
The new franchise will come into effect from October 2018, replacing the one run by Arriva Trains Wales for the last 15 years.
Speaking about it for the first time, TfW chief executive James Price said the aim was to "make all parts of Wales more connected".
He said it was more than just rail with buses, park-and-ride, active travel and other modes of transport all important.
It would also go "way beyond" commuting but also travelling for the elderly, for social reasons, for tourism and to access public services.
There will also be a cap on excess profits, with any extra surpluses re-invested in the network.

The new deal is also likely to involve:

Taking 124 miles (200km) of track away from the control of Network Rail - enabling a faster investment in new technologies such as digital signalling
TfW - which oversees the system - would hope to take control of rail-related catering, cleaning, parking and ticketing over time
£5bn over 15 years of planned investment will see contracts broken up and within the grasp of local, small and medium sized businesses, to make the biggest impact possible on local communities and the economy

 

[Tom Quinne]

Maybe to keep the RMT quiet while the politicians are on recess. Then they'll announce driver only light rail vehicles for South Wales Metro and that they've kept their promise of a guard on every train.

I’d put money on this very plan coming true with shocking accuracy.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Some teaser "information" covered by the BBC:
They helpfully show a pic of 2x395 (I think).
Looks like we can look forward to some Welsh Government sandwiches in future, if they are taking over catering...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-44197298

"We're destroying a cross city rail link because we wanted to gain powers over Westminster and most folk will actually still have 1980's DMU's " is hardly a tease.

 

[gareth950]

Maybe to keep the RMT quiet while the politicians are on recess. Then they'll announce driver only light rail vehicles for South Wales Metro and that they've kept their promise of a guard on every train.

How on earth haven't the RMT realised that this is the plan yet though? Welsh Govt have been openly admitting that they want light rail on the Valleys for the last 2 - 3 years, and Carwyn Jones only ever promised a guard on every heavy rail train.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Have you, out of interest, travelled on a "Chiltern Mainline" Class 170?

I don't know. I have been on a "Chiltern Mainline" unit but only on a relatively short journey and I don't know if it was on of their '170s' (which they have rebranded as 168s I believe) or a unit that has always been a 168.

The Class 170 is sensibly designed with a window bay spacing that works for either a table bay or two rows of airline seats with good spacing.

Really? I must be really bad at using a tape measure then because I make the windows on a mark 3 coach 173cm wide and that only just seems to be enough for two rows of airline seating on FirstGWR (mind you, I can't recall whether two rows of airline seating align with the class 175 windows which came out at 155cm). My measurement of class 170 windows (taken on an Anglia unit if I recall correctly) was 148cm. The 170 fared better in terms of window height though; 74cm beating pretty most of the other windows I've measured.

 

[John R]

You measure the length and depth of windows on trains? Maybe you're taking this too seriously. Surely it should be one's perception of the ambience on a train, rather than the precise thickness of tread of the vestibule carpet or whatever.

 

[Suraggu]

Trams for the valleys anyone? Winning bidder has been notified and announcement expected this morning.

 

[47802]

Trams for the valleys anyone? Winning bidder has been notified and announcement expected this morning.

CAF Trams for the valleys , I also think thee will be some Scotrail style HST short sets.

 

[Chester1]

"We're destroying a cross city rail link because we wanted to gain powers over Westminster and most folk will actually still have 1980's DMU's " is hardly a tease.

It is the price Wales pays for never voting Labour out of office. They can do whatever they want and the worst outcome for them would be needing to form a coalition. UKIPs likely wipe out in 2021 might give the Conservatives a boost but not enough to seriously threaten Labour's hold on power in Wales.

CAF Trams for the valleys , I also think thee will be some Scotrail style HST short sets.

CAF trams likely but not HSTs. The Scotrail HSTs are partly a response to a shortage of production capacity prior to 2020 which is not relevant to the W&B franchise because there is no capacity left to modify HSTs before 2020. Scotrail and GWR have cherry picked the latter's mark III carriages too. Some are the wrong types of Mark III and not all will be OK to upgrade for another 10-15 years service. If there are loco hauled services then CAF Mark Vs will be more popular as new stock which would likely be built in Wales

 

[Bletchleyite]

Really? I must be really bad at using a tape measure then because I make the windows on a mark 3 coach 173cm wide and that only just seems to be enough for two rows of airline seating on FirstGWR

Mk3 Standard bays are not aligned to the windows - they are, as built, aligned to a 9-bay layout (actually 8 bays and 2 rows of airlines back to back). The Chiltern ones differ, but those are to First Class spacing.

 

[mde]

Keolis/Amey wins £5bn Wales rail contract - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-44221184

Damn, I was just coming to post that same article… predictions on how long it takes Mick Cash et al to roll out the "another franchise in foreign hands" type press release? Of course, completely forgetting who calls the shots at ATW…

 

[JetStream]

Didn't he do that when the bidders were announced?!

 

[mde]

Didn't he do that when the bidders were announced?!

Probably, but, it's a line they like to repeat into any microphone thrust upon them by the media ("German owned Arriva" is the line being used in articles about the latest leg of the strike at Northern, for example)

Of course, other terms for today's bingo card are world class, light rail, pacer, state of the art, world class (oh wait)…

 

[KashmireHawker]

PA announces Keolis/Amey - just awaiting the announcement to appear on DfW Website

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Remember Amey is a major subcontractor to Network Rail on GW electrification.