Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

[PHILIPE]

Fantasy when you have to consider the amount of extra resources required to operate such services.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I don't have figures, I can only speak for the tickets I check and sell, but there is certainly quite a large market for people travelling from south of Hereford towards Bristol (and also in the rush hours to and from Filton Abbey Wood).

Extend it to Shrewsbury as an all-stations, perhaps allowing a few stops to be pruned from the Manchesters, and I could see that genuinely working well...

 

[Llanigraham]

Fantasy when you have to consider the amount of extra resources required to operate such services.

And from someone who obviously has no idea what Cwmbran station is like!

 

[berneyarms]

And from someone who obviously has no idea what Cwmbran station is like!

To be fair that poster meant a Liverpool - Cardiff service every two hours and a Liverpool - Bristol TM service on the other hours, and not having anything terminating at Cwmbran.

 

[Llanigraham]

To be fair that poster meant a Liverpool - Cardiff service every two hours and a Liverpool - Bristol TM service on the other hours, and not having anything terminating at Cwmbran.

Really?
Sorry but that is not the way I read it.

 

[adrock1976]

Four trains an hour along the North Wales coast?

That has to be massive overkill.

An hourly stopper and an hourly semi-fast is probably all that the market justifies.

Thinking more about and using the good old fashioned blank sheet of paper and a pen, I have revised my suggestions which can be seen at the end of this post.

And from someone who obviously has no idea what Cwmbran station is like!

I do not recall ever suggesting that trains would attach or divide at Cwmbran if that was what you were implying. As I note that you are a former signaller, I would have thought that I explained clearly that the Liverpool LS via Halton Curve would run to Cwmbran every 60 minutes, with one train every 2 hours continuing to Cardiff Central with the other train in the opposite hour continuing to Bristol TM.

To be fair that poster meant a Liverpool - Cardiff service every two hours and a Liverpool - Bristol TM service on the other hours, and not having anything terminating at Cwmbran.

That was what I was exactly suggesting.

Revisions to my original post are highlighted in bold below.

Regarding the service pattern along the London & North Western Railway metals in north Wales (which seems to often get overlooked by the Senedd in Cardiff), combined with new build Intercity stock being bimodal nowadays, I have a few suggestions.

1) Extend the present London Euston - Chester via Trent Valley Railway to Bangor (Gwynedd)/Holyhead (for ferry connections) every 2 hours. This would be limited stop between Chester and Bangor/Holyhead.

2) The present Manchester Airport/Piccadilly/Oxford Road - Llandudno via Warrington BQ to be left as present operating every 60 minutes, with an all year round Sunday service as well.

3) Introduce a Liverpool LS - Cwmbran via Halton Curve and Wrexham every 60 minutes, with 1 train every 2 hours continuing to Cardiff Central, with the other train every 2 hours to continue to Bristol TM. A portion would detach at Chester for Holyhead every 2 hours serving the request stops.

4) The present Crewe - Chester shuttle to be extended in both directions to run Birmingham New Street - Holyhead and Llandudno via the traditional L&NWR route calling Wolverhampton, Stafford, Crewe, Chester, etc limited stop every 2 hours. There would be a portion that attaches/detaches at Llandudno Junction for Llandudno, plus a 2 hourly shuttle between Llandudno and Llandudno Junction.

Moving onto the Great Western Railway metals of the regional routes outwith Cardiff and Swansea, suggestions are below.

1) The present Manchester Piccadilly - Cardiff and various destinations via Wilmslow to be cut back to run Manchester Piccadilly - Cardiff Central every 60 minutes with 2 hourly extensions to Swansea and no further. Perhaps the London Paddington - Swansea could be every 30 minutes throughout the day?

2) Introduce a Liverpool LS - Cwmbran via Halton Curve and Wrexham every 60 minutes, with a train alternating every 2 hours to Cardiff Central and Bristol TM. A portion would detach at Chester every 2 hours to continue to Holyhead serving the request stops.

3) Extend one of the London Euston - Birmingham NS Intercity service every 2 hours to Shrewsbury, calling Sandwell & Dudley, Wolverhampton, Telford Central, Wellington Telford West, and Shrewsbury. This would connect into the Shrewsbury - Aberystwyth short workings (to run Crewe - Chester - Aberystwyth via Wrexham). The present Birmingham - Aberystwyth/Pwlhelli to be left every 2 hours, but with a portion for Chester via Wrexham attaching/detaching at Shrewsbury i.e. 6 cars between Birmingham and Shrewsbury, 2 for Chester via Wrexham, 2 for Pwllheli, 2 for Aberystwyth.

4) Delete all.

5) Extend the present local Birmingham - Shrewsbury to Crewe via Nantwich every 60 minutes. This would merge the local shuttle that runs between Crewe and Shrewsbury.

The service pattern along the various common sections of route would have a combined frequency as follows:

Liverpool - Cwmbran every 60 minutes
Aberystwyth - Shrewsbury every 60 minutes
Shrewsbury - Chester via Wrexham every 30 minutes
Llandudno - Llandudno Junction every 30 minutes
Llandudno Junction - Chester every 30 minutes, plus the 2 hourly London Euston Intercity extensions
Chester - Crewe every 30 minutes
Shrewsbury - Abergavenny every 30 minutes
Shrewsbury - Birmingham limited stop every 60 minutes
Shrewsbury - Crewe via Nantwich every 30 minutes


I would like to mention that the above are just my suggestions, and as I do not reside in Wales and have also left the West Midlands in the second half of the 1990s, I would welcome any or better suggestions in particular from the locals, as it is their routes and their views that are being consulted upon.

 

[berneyarms]

Really?
Sorry but that is not the way I read it.

They didn't express it very well but re- read it:

Introduce a Liverpool LS - Cwmbran via Halton Curve and Wrexham every 60 minutes, with a train alternating every 2 hours to Cardiff Central and Bristol TM.

In other words the train would continue to Cardiff one hour and Bristol the other.

A better way of putting it would be the following (removing Cwmbran from the description):

A Liverpool LS - Cardiff Central via Halton Curve and Wrexham every 120 minutes
A Liverpool LS - Bristol TM via Halton Curve and Wrexham every 120 minutes

This would deliver a service every 60 minutes between Liverpool and Cwmbran.

 

[berneyarms]

I personally still think that the best way forward for serving the North Wales coast is:

* Manchester-Llandudno stopper
* Hourly semi-fast along North Wales coast (integrated with Virgin) - the ATW service could start in Liverpool perhaps?
- Stopping some in Bangor and some in Holyhead won't really work as it won't fit into the WCML service pattern
- Increase at peak times
* Limited North-South Wales direct services (3-4 in number)
* Bi-hourly stopper from Holyhead to Llandudno Junction serving request stops on Anglesey.
* Additional direct services to Holyhead for the daytime lunchtime ferries as at present (divert Manchester service)

There certainly needs to be some pro-active moves to avoid unnecessary duplication between the Virgin and ATW services as at certain times the service levels along the line are crazy given the market that it serves.

 

[Llanigraham]

They didn't express it very well but re- read it:

In other words the train would continue to Cardiff one hour and Bristol the other.

A better way of putting it would be the following (removing Cwmbran from the description):

A Liverpool LS - Cardiff Central via Halton Curve and Wrexham every 120 minutes
A Liverpool LS - Bristol TM via Halton Curve and Wrexham every 120 minutes

This would deliver a service every 60 minutes between Liverpool and Cwmbran.

No that still says a service to Cwmbran.
Now if it said VIA Cwmbran it would make sense.
In fact I cannot see any good reason why Cwmbran was even mentioned if he meant Cardiff.

And I don't see what me being a ex-signaller has to do with it.

 

[berneyarms]

No that still says a service to Cwmbran.
Now if it said VIA Cwmbran it would make sense.
In fact I cannot see any good reason why Cwmbran was even mentioned if he meant Cardiff.

And I don't see what me being a ex-signaller has to do with it.

We are dealing in semantics here. I was just clarifying my understanding of what that what the poster meant as I felt you had misunderstood what he meant.

In other words Liverpool-Cardiff train every 2 hours and a Liverpool-Bristol train every two hours (in the same path but alternate hours), and that the service wasn't terminating at Cwmbran despite the bad phrasing originally used.

He referenced Cwmbran presumably because he wanted to make the point that there would be those two services combined would deliver an hourly frequency along the line between Liverpool and Cwmbran where they would diverge.

I made no reference to your profession at all - I'm not sure why you're including that in your reply to me.

I was just trying to be helpful in response to your original reply as you seemed to misunderstand what they were suggesting.

 

[Llanigraham]

We are dealing in semantics here. I was just clarifying my understanding of what that what the poster meant as I felt you had misunderstood what he meant.

In other words Liverpool-Cardiff train every 2 hours and a Liverpool-Bristol train every two hours (in the same path but alternate hours), and that the service wasn't terminating at Cwmbran despite the bad phrasing originally used.

He referenced Cwmbran presumably because he wanted to make the point that there would be those two services combined would deliver an hourly frequency along the line between Liverpool and Cwmbran where they would diverge.

I made no reference to your profession at all - I'm not sure why you're including that in your reply to me.

I was just trying to be helpful in response to your original reply as you seemed to misunderstand what they were suggesting.

Thank you, so all he had to say was VIA Cwmbran, then it would have made sense and been understandable.

Yes, sorry it is was adrock who stated my ex-profession, for some reason.

 

[Philip]

The thought of Liverpool to South Wales services just seems to mean wasting crucial stock to make unnecessary through services. Liverpool has good, fast links to Crewe, where passengers can change for a Cardiff service. This would be quicker than a direct train via Halton Curve and Wrexham.

We all know in all likelihood the other service along the Marches (in addition to the Manchester) will continue to be the Holyhead, probably hourly instead of bi-hourly at present. I wouldn't send any new ex-Liverpool services any further south than Wrexham...no point and a waste of units.

Dedicate all Wales and Border services between Birmingham and Shrewsbury towards the Cambrian line (hourly to Aberystwyth with 4-6 coach trains throughout the day as far as Macynlleth). Chirk, Gobowen and Ruabon to be served solely by the hourly Cardiff-Holyhead. Wrexham to get two trains per hour; with one being the Holyhead; the other a shuttle to Liverpool via Runcorn.

If stock numbers and paths allow, one service extension which may work well is combining the Crewe-Chester shuttle with the Crewe-Shrewsbury one. Nantwich and Whitchurch get an hourly service frequency and it shouldn't affect reliability and performance too much either. That would hopefully also then put an end to the current arrangement of stopping off-peak daytime Manchester-South Wales services at these stations.

 

[craigybagel]

The thought of Liverpool to South Wales services just seems to mean wasting crucial stock to make unnecessary through services. Liverpool has good, fast links to Crewe, where passengers can change for a Cardiff service. This would be quicker than a direct train via Halton Curve and Wrexham.

We all know in all likelihood the other service along the Marches (in addition to the Manchester) will continue to be the Holyhead, probably hourly instead of bi-hourly at present. I wouldn't send any new ex-Liverpool services any further south than Wrexham...no point and a waste of units.

Dedicate all Wales and Border services between Birmingham and Shrewsbury towards the Cambrian line (hourly to Aberystwyth with 4-6 coach trains throughout the day as far as Macynlleth). Chirk, Gobowen and Ruabon to be served solely by the hourly Cardiff-Holyhead. Wrexham to get two trains per hour; with one being the Holyhead; the other a shuttle to Liverpool via Runcorn.

If stock numbers and paths allow, one service extension which may work well is combining the Crewe-Chester shuttle with the Crewe-Shrewsbury one. Nantwich and Whitchurch get an hourly service frequency and it shouldn't affect reliability and performance too much either. That would hopefully also then put an end to the current arrangement of stopping off-peak daytime Manchester-South Wales services at these stations.

There's a lot of sense in those suggestions - but there would be uproar from the people of Whitchurch and Nantwich losing their direct Manchester service, and from Gobowen-Wrexham losing their Birminghams. Yes, there always has to be sacrifices in these things and yes they'll have connections available, but you'd have to be prepared for a lot of backlash.

I suspect you also underestimate the numbers traveling from Liverpool towards South Wales - they're already surprisingly high even now and I believe a direct service would do very well and would not be a waste at all. If paths were available though it would be better to send them via Crewe than Wrexham since as you point out that route is quicker.

 

[Envoy]

I note that Llangefni was recently mentioned as one of the places that Ken Skates (Labour Welsh Government) said should have priority for reopening the rail route. I would have thought that Caernarfon being a bigger place with plenty of tourist traffic, should have had priority. Could of course be that Llangefni is prioritised because it is a battleground in the elections between Labour, the Conservatives and Plaid Cymru?

 

[Gareth Marston]

I note that Llangefni was recently mentioned as one of the places that Ken Skates (Labour Welsh Government) said should have priority for reopening the rail route. I would have thought that Caernarfon being a bigger place with plenty of tourist traffic, should have had priority. Could of course be that Llangefni is prioritised because it is a battleground in the elections between Labour, the Conservatives and Plaid Cymru?

Ynys Mon is a 3 way marginal.

 

[craigybagel]

To be fair, given the track is still in place (albeit presumably in unusable condition) reopening to Llangefni is a lot more achievable in the short term than Caernarvon?

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

To be fair, given the track is still in place (albeit presumably in unusable condition) reopening to Llangefni is a lot more achievable in the short term than Caernarvon?

Sorry to be pedantic but there isn't a "v" in the Welsh language. "f" = V sound
"ff" = F sound.

Caernarfon.

 

[krus_aragon]

Ynys Mon is a 3 way marginal.

And has been for decades.

 

[krus_aragon]

To be fair, given the track is still in place (albeit presumably in unusable condition) reopening to Llangefni is a lot more achievable in the short term than Caernarvon?

The trackbed is all available, there is track in situ, but the numerous cuttings and bridges are now in very poor condition, having been unmaintained for a quarter of a century. Caernarfon may serve a larger customer base, depending on how you measure things.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Sorry to be pedantic but there isn't a "v" in the Welsh language. "f" = V sound
"ff" = F sound.
Caernarfon.

Best not tell the good folk of Blaenavon then.
Or Abergavenny, Llanvihangel, Overton or Vyrnwy...
I know these are semi-anglicised, but they are still very much currently used.
What do you do with "Croes Newydd North Fork". Is that English or Welsh?
We have a Trevor locally near Ruabon which is sometimes (but not always) Trefor.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I know we can mess around with improving welsh language provision on train services instead of improving the train service themselves

Doooah i just realized the Welsh Government have probably already thought of that:roll:

 

[PHILIPE]

Best not tell the good folk of Blaenavon then.
Or Abergavenny, Llanvihangel, Overton or Vyrnwy...
I know these are semi-anglicised, but they are still very much currently used.
What do you do with "Croes Newydd North Fork". Is that English or Welsh?
We have a Trevor locally near Ruabon which is sometimes (but not always) Trefor.

There is a village near to Blaenafon called Varteg but about 3 years ago there was a campaign to give it it's Welsh name "Y Farteg". There was quite a stink about it.

 

[Envoy]

There is a village near to Blaenafon called Varteg but about 3 years ago there was a campaign to give it it's Welsh name "Y Farteg". There was quite a stink about it.

Seems to me that the Welsh Language speakers are trying to remove the anglicised names that places have had for centuries. I note that Conway has now become Conwy and that you only get the Welsh version on the National Rail websites - which must be very confusing for all the foreigners who try to find Conway - being as that is how most guidebooks refer to the place.

I spelt Caernarfon with an f because I now thought this was the accepted spelling. What next - abolish the name Cardiff and call it Caerdydd?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seems to me that the Welsh Language speakers are trying to remove the anglicised names that places have had for centuries. I note that Conway has now become Conwy and that you only get the Welsh version on the National Rail websites - which must be very confusing for all the foreigners who try to find Conway - being as that is how most guidebooks refer to the place.

I spelt Caernarfon with an f because I now thought this was the accepted spelling. What next - abolish the name Cardiff and call it Caerdydd?

I've not heard it called Conway in any form since about 1990, and the spelling "Carnarvon" or "Caernarvon" disappeared even earlier. My personal take is that we shouldn't ideally Anglicise *any* place names - the one that really entertains me is "Bayern Munich" - wha? - why only Anglicise half of it?

Another amusing one is Valley on Anglesey - it started as "Y Fali", was Anglicised to "Valley", then gets translated (as it is I think on the station signs) back to "Dyffryn". Oops.

 

[Parallel]

Best not tell the good folk of Blaenavon then.
Or Abergavenny, Llanvihangel, Overton or Vyrnwy...
I know these are semi-anglicised, but they are still very much currently used.

I can't speak of the others but isn't the Welsh equivalent of Abergavenny 'Y Fenni'?

 

[PHILIPE]

I can't speak or the others but isn't the Welsh equivalent of Abergavenny 'Y Fenni'?

Yn Gwir (Correct)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

We still get Give Way road signs defaced with the Welsh Ildiwch.
That despite Ildiwch being simply the welsh-ization of the English (Saxon?) word Yield.

I have never heard train announcements in Welsh, only at stations.
Welsh conductors certainly chat to passengers in Welsh though, even at Crewe!

 

[Robin1966]

I've not heard it called Conway in any form since about 1990, and the spelling "Carnarvon" or "Caernarvon" disappeared even earlier. My personal take is that we shouldn't ideally Anglicise *any* place names - the one that really entertains me is "Bayern Munich" - wha? - why only Anglicise half of it?

Another amusing one is Valley on Anglesey - it started as "Y Fali", was Anglicised to "Valley", then gets translated (as it is I think on the station signs) back to "Dyffryn". Oops.

I am fairly okay with calling Munich 'Munchen' actually...

 

[Gareth Marston]

Don't worry with the pronunciation folks one carriage of each of the Hourly Holyhead to Cardiff trains will be a mobile Welsh language classroom come the new franchise

 

[berneyarms]

And maybe we could focus on the possible proposals again rather than the idiosyncrasies of the Welsh language, fascinating as they may be?