Was I in the right?

[HMS Ark Royal]

Herein lies the problem. Chip and PIN cards aren't really supposed to be swiped any more.

Really? I have had mine swiped at HUL on a good many occasions when buying tickets. Once had it swiped at Barton too

 

[reb0118]

Herein lies the problem. Chip and PIN cards aren't really supposed to be swiped any more.

Correct, we have received correspondence from the banks that chip 'n' pin cards MUST not be swiped unless the system tells us to (there are still some random signature requests).

You as a customer do not have the right to "insist" that your card is swiped - and personally I would view it as very suspicious if a passenger requested this of me. I would assume knowledge that the person was aware that their card is on line only.

In any case a debit/credit card is not a valid method of payment in and of itself. It is merely a means to transfer money from your account to the railway's. We want your money so why would we decline the transaction? We don't. Your card declines the transaction - so therefore you do not have the means to pay your fare.

When you then refuse to provide your details you then compound a civil debt into a much more serious criminal matter. In any case if you are seen to be deliberately avoiding paying you may be refused boarding or put off the train (usual caveats apply) in future. It would be wise not to get a reputation. Rail staff can & do pass on intelligence re. problem passengers to other staff & revenue support teams.

For the avoidance of doubt the Thyron, or similar, machine is very limited in its functions. It does however carry out these functions well. Viz.:-

Checks the PIN is correct.
Checks the database for "hot" cards.
Checks for off line authority.



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[roversfan2001]

That is, quite frankly, ridiculous. So a card only TVM is seen as a good enough alternative to a full TVM, but someone with a debit card 'has no means to pay' and is seen as a fraudster? Very customer friendly that.

 

[PermitToTravel]

In any case a debit/credit card is not a valid method of payment in and of itself. It is merely a means to transfer money from your account to the railway's. We want your money so why would we decline the transaction? We don't. Your card declines the transaction - so therefore you do not have the means to pay your fare.

This is a good and helpful explanation of the issue, though it raises the question of why the railway use equipment that causes a large proportion of cards to decline the transaction, when no other retailers (including the shops and trolleys on trains!) still do.

 

[roversfan2001]

You as a customer do not have the right to "insist" that your card is swiped - and personally I would view it as very suspicious if a passenger requested this of me. I would assume knowledge that the person was aware that their card is on line only.

I've said before on the thread that I have an app on my phone that shows my current bank balance. If the guard suspected I was trying them on, then I would show them this to prove I have enough on my card for the transaction to occur.

And surely if my card was swiped and by the time the transaction was attempted there was insufficient funds, I would be dealt with as a fare dodger (and rightly so)?

 

[PermitToTravel]

It doesn't work like that. They won't automatically get your contact details from the card, and swiping it isn't a guarantee that they'll get the money even if you have sufficient funds. It ceased to be a suitable payment mechanism for chip and PIN cards a decade ago (and only the railways persist with swiping chip and PIN cards)

 

[roversfan2001]

So what I gather from this is that everywhere else, I can use my card, but on the railways I have to get cash out first (inconveniencing me), or have to give over my details to be given an £80 'fine' (okay, let's be honest here, no way would Northern bother with the hassle of posting me an invoice for £2.15, they'll add the £80 on, no doubt about it).

And all this because the railway has ancient ticket machines! So I get inconvenienced!

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

It doesn't work like that. They won't automatically get your contact details from the card, and swiping it isn't a guarantee that they'll get the money even if you have sufficient funds. It ceased to be a suitable payment mechanism for chip and PIN cards a decade ago (and only the railways persist with swiping chip and PIN cards)

Actually, I get my card swiped in shops to this day - only half an hour ago i did some shopping at Tesco and it was swiped

 

[Hadders]

A few points to note here.

A retailer can swipe a card but if the transaction turns out to be fraudulent then the bank will not reimburse the retailer.

The OP appears to have a debit card that requires online authorisation which is not available on a train and may not be available with the new portable ticket machines due to the issue of reliable wifi/3G/4G signals in a moving train.

The OP showing his/her balance on an app proves nothing. The OP could withdraw their money from the account before the transaction is processed.

I appreciate it's a frustrating situation but I really feel the OP would be best advised to carry some cash on journeys to prevent issues. Cash is also useful at times of emergency as not all shops accept cards and in the event that a phone box needs to be listed to make a call (mobiles do run out of charge sometimes...)

 

[reb0118]

So what I gather from this is that everywhere else, I can use my card

Not too sure but I think your card will not work on a Caledonian Macbrayne ferry nor to purchase goods on board an aircraft or anywhere else there is no live signal.

FYI the banking systems changed the rules after the implication of avantix by removing the "floor limit" for swiped transactions and by issuing debit cards to "poor risk" customers. TBF the railway has been slow to help itself in working out a solution or even a suitable fall back system.

A harsh response to the OP is that if cash is the only method of payment that the railway will accept from him at present, but the carrying and use of the said cash is such an anathema to him, then the railways are not offering a suitable service and he should avoid using them.

The OP now knows that his card will in great probability decline and knowing that if he must use the railway in future he must also ensure that he carries sufficient cash to purchase his fare. If he is unable to the railway may give him a further opportunity to pay at a later time but only if he provides his details.



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[roversfan2001]

Not too sure but I think your card will not work on a Caledonian Macbrayne ferry nor to purchase goods on board an aircraft or anywhere else there is no live signal.

Whoops, forgot to mention that I travel on aircraft and ferries often. :roll: I'll rephrase that then, everywhere else I go to has the ability to accept my card.
-

 

[najaB]

So what I gather from this is that everywhere else...

That's not the case. There are a few other places that decline offline card transactions. Tollbooths are a common one, there are others.

And all this because the railway has ancient ticket machines! So I get inconvenienced!

No, it's because your bank chose to rebrand an Electron card as a Visa card, thereby causing confusion.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

So what I gather from this is that everywhere else, I can use my card, but on the railways I have to get cash out first (inconveniencing me) . . . . .

You've been given some very sound explanations and good advice on here, but you seem to be more determined to find fault and to blame others. If tht's not true and is just how I read your posts, then I apologise.

I have explained why the situation is very different when you have already started to take advantage of the contract from situations when you haven't yet received the goods or service;
reb0118 has explained why your card is not, in fact, a valid means of making payment (on the railways or elsewhere);
najaB has explained that a criminal offence is committed by starting to travel knowingly not having the means to complete the payment;
I and others have recommended that it in fact a convenience, not an inconvenience, to carry small amounts of cash with you, for a variety of unexpected circumstances;
najaB has explained that it is your bank that has misleadingly 'rebranded' an Electron card, wrongly giving the impression that it is available for chip n pin transactions;
I have explained that failing to supply your name and address after taking advantage of a service which remains unpaid would be likely to constitute a fraud;
and, I will add that there are a great many situations where the only available method of payment is cash (and some of them are in dealing with unforseen difficulties) - I encounter these several times a week and I can avoid difficulties by using some of my cash.

You would not be charged an £80 penalty if you took the advice given to you on here.

The railways have taken delivery of a number of new on-board ticket selling machines known as DORIS and these are currently being used in training staff. But that doesn't change the legal, procedural and practical points being made here.

 

[hantsman1205]

Whoops, forgot to mention that I travel on aircraft and ferries often. :roll: I'll rephrase that then, everywhere else I go to has the ability to accept my card.
-

Do you preload this card?

 

[roversfan2001]

Do you preload this card?

Yes, it is loaded with money regularly.

 

[DelayRepay]

Whoops, forgot to mention that I travel on aircraft and ferries often. :roll: I'll rephrase that then, everywhere else I go to has the ability to accept my card.
-

Although probably not an issue given your age, you would probably find your card declined at unattended petrol pumps, and might have problems using it to secure a hotel or hire car booking.

I'm not meaning to be funny but is it really that much trouble to carry cash? How do you manage if you ever need to catch a bus?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, it is loaded with money regularly.

So actually it's not a debit card...

 

[roversfan2001]

So actually it's not a debit card...

According to a number of online retailers, it is a debit card.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Is it a debit card?

 

[najaB]

According to a number of online retailers, it is a debit card.

Is it linked to a bank current account?

 

[roversfan2001]

Its a prepaid card. Recognised as 'Visa Debit' by a number of online retailers.

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[najaB]

Its a prepaid card. Recognised as 'Visa Debit' by a number of online retailers.

Sadly, that isn't a debit card even though it's processed as one by some retailer's systems - as such my sympathy towards your situation is somewhat tempered.

The card issuer should have made it clear to you in the terms and conditions that it may not be universally accepted - hence I'm still empathetic towards the awkward position you found yourself in.

 

[DelayRepay]

Its a prepaid card. Recognised as 'Visa Debit' by a number of online retailers.

But not recognised by Visa as such.

The fact other retailers process it as if it's a debit card, doesn't make it a debit card. If you wanted to get into a argument, I think the TOC could make a good case that you didn't have a valid payment method and thus deliberately avoided payment of your fare.

 

[PauloDavesi]

It might be a good idea for the OP to investigate the accounts offered by the major banks designed for people in his age group (14-17) that offer a visa, or Mastercard, debit card, and are designed to be used in a wider range of circumstances than his current 'pre-payment' visa card.

OP, does your current card allow you to purchase tickets at station booking offices and TVM's?

 

[roversfan2001]

It was a draw. And cards arent accepted inside the ground, so I made the decision to buy food and drink outside the ground. I can't choose another form of payment when I don't have it.

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[najaB]

OP, does your current card allow you to purchase tickets at station booking offices and TVM's?

I'd be very surprised if it doesn't, as most pre-paid cards work exactly the same as debit/credit cards when the balance can be verified in real time.

 

[hantsman1205]

Yes, it is loaded with money regularly.

Unfortunately its not a true visa debit card & there will be occasions where it won't be accepted, which bank or arm is it issued from?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'd be very surprised if it doesn't, as most pre-paid cards work exactly the same as debit/credit cards when the balance can be verified in real time.

Don't be surprised there can be differences, pre pay credit cards also have some problems.

 

[roversfan2001]

My card works in TVMs and in ticket offices.

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[ComUtoR]

Whoops, forgot to mention that I travel on aircraft and ferries often. :roll: I'll rephrase that then, everywhere else I go to has the ability to accept my card.
-

I can't pay by card when I go to the football. Many places I go are still "cash only"

 

[najaB]

Don't be surprised there can be differences, pre pay credit cards also have some problems.

I've experienced just such troubles, in my case it was usually solved by retrying the transaction in the other mode - that is to process it as if it was a credit card rather than debit, or vice versa.

 

[roversfan2001]

I can't pay by card when I go to the football. Many places I go are still "cash only"

I don't purchase anything inside the ground itself.

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