Wasn't allowed on Gatwick Express with "Southern Only" ticket

[dcsprior]

On Thursday, I was forced to buy an upgrade from a "Southern Only" ticket before being allowed on the Gatwick Express at Victoria Station.

Roughly what happened was:

• I bought the ticket online, and collected it from Edinburgh Waverley
• At Victoria, the ticket barriers came up "Seek Assistance" so the woman on the gate asked to see my ticket. I showed her it, and she said it wasn't valid. I said it was, but she shook her head. Not wanting to have to argue with someone who was obviously wrong, I walked through the wide gate which she had opened for another passenger.
• Another member of staff came running after me, he said he was from revenue protection and asked me to see the ticket and then pulled it out of my hand and refused to give me it back when asked. He again told me it was invalid, and I again said it was (the conversation went something like "this is a Southern only ticket, so you cannot use it on this train" "but this train is run by Southern - look you're wearing a Southern uniform" "that doesn't matter"). While this was happening, he was walking back towards and then through the gates, which I had no choice but to follow him through as he'd taken my ticket off me. Other bizarre attempts at justification from him included "Well if other people have paid nineteen pounds, then of course your fourteen pound ticket isn't going to be valid, is it?"
• Eventually, I couldn't argue any longer as it was getting close to the departure time of the train so I was forced to pay £5.50 in addition to already having a valid ticket. I thanked both members of staff for nothing and got on my train.

Can anyone confirm that my ticket is valid on the Gatwick Express, contrary to what Southern said? If it is, what is the best way to complain to Southern, and what kind of response am I likely to get?

 

[transportphoto]

If you have your tickets, the Southern Only and the Excess, which was sold incorrectly anyway as you can not issue an excess to remove a TOC Only restriction This is a can of worms, however we've been successful before in getting refunds plus compensation, I can't see why it can't happen again.

TP

 

[dcsprior]

If you have your tickets, the Southern Only and the Excess, which was sold incorrectly anyway as you can not issue an excess to remove a TOC Only restriction This is a can of worms, however we've been successful before in getting refunds plus compensation, I can't see why it can't happen again.

TP

Yes, I have both tickets, I got a member of staff to let me through at Gatwick so the gate didn't swallow them.

The second ticket doesn't inclde the word "excess" anywhere on it. In "Ticket type" is says "SOUTHERN STD SU" and was £5.50, so it seems to be this

 

[Urban Gateline]

The second ticket doesn't inclde the word "excess" anywhere on it. In "Ticket type" is says "SOUTHERN STD SU" and was £5.50, so it seems to be this

Hmm, that seems to be a Supplement, maybe a way of getting around doing an excess

Although I don't agree that "Southern only" Tickets are valid on the Gatwick Express I won't mention it further as some members on here have very strong beliefs to the contrary, I think that argument has been done to death so I don't wish to resurrect it!

Tailgating through the wide Gate wasn't the best idea though was it? You made yourself look like a fare evader so of course staff were going to follow you! Just from reading your post I can tell your attitude towards staff was unpleasant, there's really no need for that.

 

[dcsprior]

Tailgating through the wide Gate wasn't the best idea though was it? You made yourself look like a fare evader so of course staff were going to follow you! Just from reading your post I can tell your attitude towards staff was unpleasant, there's really no need for that.

I was slowly strolling towards my train, so there was no question of looking like I was fare-evading.

My attitude towards staff is not unpleasant. However on this one occasion I didn't want to be delayed arguing with someone that I hadn't paid fully when I was sure I had. Similarly, if I was walking out of a shop and someone came up to me and said (abruptly) "you've not paid for what you've got in that bag" when I knew I had, I wouldn't stop to debate the point with them.

 

[Mark_H]

Just from reading your post I can tell your attitude towards staff was unpleasant, there's really no need for that.

You can't tell that at all; at no point is any unpleasantness towards staff described.

I was slowly strolling towards my train, so there was no question of looking like I was fare-evading.

My attitude towards staff is not unpleasant. However on this one occasion I didn't want to be delayed arguing with someone that I hadn't paid fully when I was sure I had. Similarly, if I was walking out of a shop and someone came up to me and said (abruptly) "you've not paid for what you've got in that bag" when I knew I had, I wouldn't stop to debate the point with them.

Exactly. In fact, the only unpleasantness here is the member of staff who took your ticket and walked off with it.

 

[David Goddard]

About time ATOC or someone else in authority sorted this problem out once and for all.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Not wanting to have to argue with someone who was obviously wrong, I walked through the wide gate which she had opened for another passenger.

I thanked both members of staff for nothing and got on my train.

Mark_H - This is the aforementioned "attitude" to the staff.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....
At Victoria, the ticket barriers came up "Seek Assistance" so the woman on the gate asked to see my ticket. I showed her it, and she said it wasn't valid. I said it was, but she shook her head. Not wanting to have to argue with someone who was obviously wrong, I walked through the wide gate which she had opened for another passenger.....

Given the debate that happens on here every so often I don't think you can say she was 'obviously wrong'. As it happens I agree with her, but others will just say it is my opinion or I'm reading it wrong, naturally I could say that about their position on the subject.

Another member of staff came running after me, he said he was from revenue protection and asked me to see the ticket and then pulled it out of my hand and refused to give me it back when asked....

The ticket is property of the railway, he is an agent or employee of the railway, he may have had every intention of giving it back to you at some point.

....He again told me it was invalid, and I again said it was....

Again, debatable point.

....(the conversation went something like "this is a Southern only ticket, so you cannot use it on this train" "but this train is run by Southern....

"Southern" or "Southern Railway Limited"? Debatable point.

.... - look you're wearing a Southern uniform"....

G4S check tickets on behalf of Northern at stations even when the trains running are TPE or EMT or XC, does that make G4S staff employees of Northern, EMT, XC or TPE?

.... "that doesn't matter"....

Well it doesn't.

....Other bizarre attempts at justification from him included "Well if other people have paid nineteen pounds, then of course your fourteen pound ticket isn't going to be valid, is it?"....

It is probably easier to say that to the vast majority of people, you just happen to know better, though that doesn't make him right necessarily.

Eventually, I couldn't argue any longer as it was getting close to the departure time of the train so I was forced to pay £5.50....

Presumably you journey couldn't wait for the next 'Southern' service?

.... in addition to already having a valid ticket....

Debatable point as noted.

Can anyone confirm that my ticket is valid on the Gatwick Express, contrary to what Southern said?....

probably, however it is a debate that is fairly frequent on here and no-one really agrees about it, despite input from ATOC.

....If it is, what is the best way to complain to Southern, and what kind of response am I likely to get?

Southern will probably give you your £5.50 back as they would rather refund the few who complain than lose the revenue of your ticket when you switch to FCC or someone else, that doesn't necessarily make you right though.

 

[Mark_H]

Mark_H - This is the aforementioned "attitude" to the staff.

Which happened after being made to cough up an unwarranted amount of extra cash. I think you've got cause and effect a bit confused here.

 

[island]

Southern has refunded all known cases of passengers who were upcharged and complained in these circumstances.

 

[yorkie]

I again said it was (the conversation went something like "this is a Southern only ticket, so you cannot use it on this train" "but this train is run by Southern - look you're wearing a Southern uniform" "that doesn't matter").

These people would argue the world is flat if their bosses told them to say that. You won't get any sense out of them. In fact, on one occasion someone asked "who is your employer?" to which they deemed it a "personal" question and called the police! Someone noting the conversation by writing down notes had their notes confiscated.

They will say anything, using terms such as "umbrella organisation" and any other old claptrap to justify their case.

Other bizarre attempts at justification from him included "Well if other people have paid nineteen pounds, then of course your fourteen pound ticket isn't going to be valid, is it?"

Ah, that old chestnut

Eventually, I couldn't argue any longer as it was getting close to the departure time of the train so I was forced to pay £5.50 in addition to already having a valid ticket. I thanked both members of staff for nothing and got on my train.

Ah yes, the ticket that basically admits that they are Southern after all! Does it say something like "Southern Upgrade"? If they were a separate TOC, they'd be charging you for a new ticket, as you can't officially excess a ticket for use on a different TOC.

Can anyone confirm that my ticket is valid on the Gatwick Express, contrary to what Southern said? If it is, what is the best way to complain to Southern, and what kind of response am I likely to get?

Feel free to PM me with a draft letter. I've helped 3 other people so far, and the success rate is 100%. I can't guarantee success, but I will do my best to ensure the 100% record stands!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

About time ATOC or someone else in authority sorted this problem out once and for all.

No chance

 

[maniacmartin]

The DfT and ATOC both want Gatwick Express to be separate from Southern "for ticketing purposes" alas, so this won't be sorted anytime soon.

If Gatwick Express is a separate company for ticketing purposes, then why do they accept SOUTHERN STD SUpplements?

Next time, buy a Blackfriars - Gatwick SDS Route: NOT UNDERGROUND. It's priced by FCC and is valid Blackfriars - Denmark Hill - Victoria - Clapham Junction - Gatwick, and you can start short at Victoria (maps SL+LB, changing maps at Victoria). (Assuming you class Denmark Hill - Victoria as not going via Battersea Park*)
As it has no operator restriction, you can use it on Gatwick Express without getting into the argument as to whether they are a separate TOC for ticketing purposes, and it's only £10.00 (so £4.40 less than the Southern Only ticket from Victoria).

* It is shown as avoiding on maps that ATOC & SET publish, and is not a timing point.

 

[jon0844]

It will be fixed when Southern and FCC franchises merge of course! No TOC specific tickets then.

I wonder how Gatwick Express will work then? Maybe a new restriction code?

 

[yorkie]

Next time, buy a Blackfriars - Gatwick SDS Route: NOT UNDERGROUND..... .

But will the ticket gates accept it? If not, the argument will still occur, but over routeing (the Southern staff - who purport to work for a fictional company called Gatwick Express, in possible breach of the law, as a quick check can confirm that the company of that name is no longer trading - are extremely un-knowledgeable and make up rules as they go along)

And instead of saying "other people paid £19 you only paid £14" they will say the same thing, but quoting a lower amount!

You don't seriously expect these staff to be aware of the NRCoC, let alone adhere to it? This is the rail industry you know. And it's also London. So the chances of them adhering to the rules are very, very slim. If you use a ticket in a slightly unusual, but perfectly legitimate, way, especially if dealing with staff in London, you have to prepare yourself for a potentially hostile and unpleasant reaction from poorly trained individuals.

 

[island]

Do the barriers to the Gatwick Express platforms accept Travelcards?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....I wonder how Gatwick Express will work then? Maybe a new restriction code?

'Southern Only' and 'FCC Only' will disappear with their lower fares and 'Not Gatwick Express' will remain as the only alternative to 'Any Permitted', thus getting rid of the argument.

 

[island]

If they want to offer a cheaper fare for the Gatwick Express journey they could contrive something involving a split, given that the split would not generally be valid on the Gatwick Express non-stop service.

 

[sheff1]

Other bizarre attempts at justification from him included "Well if other people have paid nineteen pounds, then of course your fourteen pound ticket isn't going to be valid, is it?"

Whenever I hear such nonense, I know immediately that the person spouting it does not understand how the ticketing system actually works. I no longer attempt to discuss the matter further with such people as they 'know they are right' and hence will not be interested in the truth.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The DfT and ATOC both want Gatwick Express to be separate from Southern "for ticketing purposes" alas, so this won't be sorted anytime soon.

I don't see why it can't be.

London Terminals to Gatwick Airport is endorsed "not Gatwick Express", so I don't see why London Victoria to Gatwick Airport (endorsement "Southern Trains Only" can't have the same endorsement.

I'm surprised they haven't already done this, given the Gatwick Express website proudly states "Gatwick Express is operated by Southern" and the 442s appear on plenty of Southern services (hence the removal of the "Gatwick" vinyl).

 

[bb21]

I don't see why it can't be.

London Terminals to Gatwick Airport is endorsed "not Gatwick Express", so I don't see why London Victoria to Gatwick Airport (endorsement "Southern Trains Only" can't have the same endorsement.

Revenue distribution.

FCC gets a share of the Not Gat Ex tickets.

 

[thedbdiboy]

The DfT and ATOC both want Gatwick Express to be separate from Southern "for ticketing purposes" alas, so this won't be sorted anytime soon.

ATOC do not make these sorts of decisions and are not some sort of ruling body that can tell TOCs how to run their business. The decision on the franchise structure was made by the DfT, and thus far, the DfT appear to be content that the 'Gatwick Express' services are treated as separate entities for ticket routing purposes (or at least, they have no real interest in enforcing the definition of Southern and Gatwick Express as a single entity in ticketing terms). Under those circumstances, ATOC have absolutely no authority to dictate otherwise.

 

[maniacmartin]

Indeed. ATOC by definition represents the interests of the TOCs though, so I think it's fair to say that if the TOCs are all in favour of something, then ATOC probably will be too.

 

[CyrusWuff]

ATOC do not make these sorts of decisions and are not some sort of ruling body that can tell TOCs how to run their business. The decision on the franchise structure was made by the DfT, and thus far, the DfT appear to be content that the 'Gatwick Express' services are treated as separate entities for ticket routing purposes (or at least, they have no real interest in enforcing the definition of Southern and Gatwick Express as a single entity in ticketing terms). Under those circumstances, ATOC have absolutely no authority to dictate otherwise.

More specifically, Section 16 of Appendix 11 (Committed obligations) of Southern's franchise agreement requires (amongst other things) them to retain the Gatwick Express brand and advertise relevant services as such on Customer Information Systems, and defines Gatwick Express services as those running between Victoria and Gatwick with no intermediate calls. It doesn't define specific ticketing arrangements for GatEx, however.

Ticketing arrangements, specifically those regarding flows with no compulsory requirement for inter-availability (i.e. not needing an "Any Permitted" fare), are dealt with in Schedule 8 to the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement, and preserve the status quo that existed when GatEx was run by InterCity.

From Southern's point of view, it's cheaper just to refund anyone who complains about being charged an upgrade if they travel on GatEx with a Southern only ticket than it would be to let the matter be tested in Court, of course.

 

[gordonthemoron]

since the Southern services are only marginally slower (some by only 1 minute), why didn't the OP get one of those instead?

 

[island]

since the Southern services are only marginally slower (some by only 1 minute), why didn't the OP get one of those instead?

Or go over to London Bridge and use the cheaper FCC.

 

[dvboy]

On Thursday, I was forced to buy an upgrade from a "Southern Only" ticket before being allowed on the Gatwick Express at Victoria Station.

Roughly what happened was:

• I bought the ticket online, and collected it from Edinburgh Waverley
• At Victoria, the ticket barriers came up "Seek Assistance" so the woman on the gate asked to see my ticket. I showed her it, and she said it wasn't valid. I said it was, but she shook her head. Not wanting to have to argue with someone who was obviously wrong, I walked through the wide gate which she had opened for another passenger.
• Another member of staff came running after me, he said he was from revenue protection and asked me to see the ticket and then pulled it out of my hand and refused to give me it back when asked. He again told me it was invalid, and I again said it was (the conversation went something like "this is a Southern only ticket, so you cannot use it on this train" "but this train is run by Southern - look you're wearing a Southern uniform" "that doesn't matter"). While this was happening, he was walking back towards and then through the gates, which I had no choice but to follow him through as he'd taken my ticket off me. Other bizarre attempts at justification from him included "Well if other people have paid nineteen pounds, then of course your fourteen pound ticket isn't going to be valid, is it?"
• Eventually, I couldn't argue any longer as it was getting close to the departure time of the train so I was forced to pay £5.50 in addition to already having a valid ticket. I thanked both members of staff for nothing and got on my train.

Can anyone confirm that my ticket is valid on the Gatwick Express, contrary to what Southern said? If it is, what is the best way to complain to Southern, and what kind of response am I likely to get?

Go for the full refund like I did:
http://railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=64324

 

[jon0844]

From Southern's point of view, it's cheaper just to refund anyone who complains about being charged an upgrade if they travel on GatEx with a Southern only ticket than it would be to let the matter be tested in Court, of course.

I've said this all along. It's best to not draw too much attention to the issue and just refund what must be a tiny percentage of travellers. They then get to continue profiting from tourists who buy GatEx tickets and 'everyone is happy'.

They wouldn't ever risk letting it go to court. Sure, they might win but if not - they'd effectively lose what is pretty easy money. In fact, there are many situations where we can argue on here that it should be tested in court - but I doubt anyone would ever succeed in getting it that far.

 

[martinsh]

I've said this all along. It's best to not draw too much attention to the issue and just refund what must be a tiny percentage of travellers. They then get to continue profiting from tourists who buy GatEx tickets and 'everyone is happy'.

They wouldn't ever risk letting it go to court. Sure, they might win but if not - they'd effectively lose what is pretty easy money. In fact, there are many situations where we can argue on here that it should be tested in court - but I doubt anyone would ever succeed in getting it that far.

"mass trespass" anyone ?

 

[Mojo]

Or go over to London Bridge and use the cheaper FCC.

And often faster than Gatwick Express is from Victoria too!

http://asa.org.uk/Rulings/Adjudications/2011/7/Southern-Railway-Company-Ltd/SHP_ADJ_150830.aspx