WCRC banned from running trains on the mainline from 18th Feb 2016 now rescinded

[D1009]

Anyone seen evidence of WCRC having moved anything since the ban was lifted?

 

[Marklund]

The view from most drivers, including myself, is that in cab cctv becomes another tool for management to discipline drivers with. It also implies that the management do not have trust in their drivers. Let's be honest, no driver manager is going to use it for anything else other than try to catch drivers out. OTMR downloads were originally said to be used for investigation of incidents only. Nowadays it's used for assessment purposes and random downloads are carried out in the hope of catching someone out.

With reference to guards above. The cctv is NOT pointing at them all day. Internal cctv is for security and crime prevention purposes. But again, is used by management to discipline staff for failing to have a name badge or tie on etc etc.

Same for voice recorders.
Promised it was only for post incident analysis. Now abused for any purpose. :roll:

 

[Agent_c]

Just got a promo email claiming all services running as planned. Anyone confirm?

 

[Zoidberg]

Just got a promo email claiming all services running as planned. Anyone confirm?

Not sure how anyone can confirm that you've received a promo email.

 

[Agent_c]

Not sure how anyone can confirm that you've received a promo email.

I of course meant the "all services running as normal"...

 

[Lankyline]

I find this paragraph from the ORR letter, probably more insightful than the rest of the letter, as it imo gives rise to the question of how long WCRC possibly operated below the industry governance & standards and the only reason they were caught out as due to the incidents we know about

"Under the terms of the Prohibition, the company was unable to operate trains on the main line network until ORR was satisfied its governance and operations meet industry practice and are fit for the scale of its operation."

On the point of cctv, in this particular case, wouldn't you be more assured, as both as a company and a customer that this is installed ?

 

[D1009]

On the point of cctv, in this particular case, wouldn't you be more assured, as both as a company and a customer that this is installed ?

Only if its benefits over the limited on train monitoring equipment applicable to steam locos can be explained. If they are proved to be beneficial they should be applied to all main line registered steam locos irrespective of who operates them.

 

[QueensCurve]

On the point of cctv, in this particular case, wouldn't you be more assured, as both as a company and a customer that this is installed ?

To me, it seems like an innovative way of providing assurance that things will change and that drivers will not be getting away with bad practices.

Providing "assurances" that the management culture would change could not be done so quickly.

It remains to be seen how the safety culture will develop.

 

[edwin_m]

Perhaps there should be a CCTV camera in the Chairman's office?

 

[najaB]

Perhaps there should be a CCTV camera in the Chairman's office?

I propose a lock on the door. And he's not allowed the key.

 

[RPTC]

Same for voice recorders.
Promised it was only for post incident analysis. Now abused for any purpose. :roll:

We have that in our road vehicles, and explicit statements that it can be sampled. It rarely happens as our management has more than enough to do. Perhaps you should write a business case for efficiency savings as it sounds like you have too many managers with not enough work. It can't be efficient for someone on a manager's salary to be sat on their backside watching driver footage all day, now can it?

 

[daikilo]

It can't be efficient for someone on a manager's salary to be sat on their backside watching driver footage all day, now can it?

It isn't, but as an operator, if it is the only (or cheapest) way you can get your operating certificate back, then it is worth it. It is a very good example of why it is best to never get into the situation in the first place. Recovery is almost always more expensive than avoidance.

 

[Tracked]

Saw the Spirit of the Lakes tour (Peterborough-Carlisle) go through Doncaster this morning, 47/57 pairing on it.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Apparently the 47 on that train caught fire on the WCML somewhere north of Carnforth and a loco had to be summoned from Carnforth to rescue the train. There were of course long delays to service trains. Not a good start.....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
According to WNXX, the incident occurred 1.5 miles north of Carnforth. The train was towed wrong line back to Carnforth by the 57 on the back. 47832 then replaced 47786 and the train proceeded to Carlisle.

 

[QueensCurve]

Apparently the 47 on that train caught fire on the WCML somewhere north of Carnforth and a loco had to be summoned from Carnforth to rescue the train. There were of course long delays to service trains. Not a good start.....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
According to WNXX, the incident occurred 1.5 miles north of Carnforth. The train was towed wrong line back to Carnforth by the 57 on the back. 47832 then replaced 47786 and the train proceeded to Carlisle.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U54380/2016/04/02/advanced

Raises questions about maintenance and managment thereof. Potentially Safety case issues?

 

[najaB]

Raises questions about maintenance and managment thereof. Potentially Safety case issues?

Possibly. But a single failure of an old locomotive wouldn't attract much attention if they hadn't just come off a suspension, so let's try not to read too much into it. It will be interesting to see what, if anything, the ORR has to say about it.

 

[DaleCooper]

Who pays for delays to other services in such a situation?

 

[D1009]

Who pays for delays to other services in such a situation?

Network Rail, in accordance with the Track Access Contracts of the other operators. WCRC will have to pay Network Rail in accordance with its Track Access Contract, unless they can prove that the fire was Network Rail's fault.

 

[najaB]

... unless they can prove that the fire was Network Rail's fault.

Good luck with that one!

 

[Tracked]

another one's just popped up at Doncaster, think it was 47832 at the front

 

[furnessvale]

Network Rail, in accordance with the Track Access Contracts of the other operators. WCRC will have to pay Network Rail in accordance with its Track Access Contract, unless they can prove that the fire was Network Rail's fault.

Up to fairly recently, heritage type operations had a special arrangement where they didn't have to pay the full costs involved, unlike other operators.

I believe ORR were looking to change that arrangement, but I don't know if it has come into force yet.

 

[Dryce]

Raises questions about maintenance and managment thereof. Potentially Safety case issues?

It might.

But then it's not as if we don't see the likes of 66s or 67s get into trouble, or non WCRC 37s playing up.

 

[rebmcr]

It's worth bearing in mind that their last 47 fire was because of trackside wheel greasing units not functioning correctly.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

It's worth bearing in mind that their last 47 fire was because of trackside wheel greasing units not functioning correctly.

British Rail used to set their Class 47s alight regularly too. DB Cargo had a Class 67 sit down for 5 hours on the Caledonian Sleeper this week, and there's been a nasty old bump down in Plymouth which could be anybody's fault.

These things happen. I don't think as many people would want to work on the railway if it wasn't full of such challenges and sometimes split second decision making wasn't necessary.

 

[Dryce]

Only if its benefits over the limited on train monitoring equipment applicable to steam locos can be explained. If they are proved to be beneficial they should be applied to all main line registered steam locos irrespective of who operates them.

In this case it looks like it may be two fold - one is expediency in that they have to do something to record what is happening - with legacy plant or equipment CCTV is a deterrent. The other is as a deterrent.

Regardless of what management actually may try to set out as procedure - unsupervised or independent staff actually operating path may actually violate these more than may be realised. In the past I can recall coming across machine operators disconnect or bypassing safety circuits, working *inside* safety screens, and mechanically actuating equipment in unconventional ways.

My very cynical view of a union or group of staff resisting CCTV to monitor operators of plant or equipment is to suspect that they know there are bad practices that have become endemic - and are looking to cover the situation.

 

[D1009]

In this case it looks like it may be two fold - one is expediency in that they have to do something to record what is happening - with legacy plant or equipment CCTV is a deterrent. The other is as a deterrent.

Regardless of what management actually may try to set out as procedure - unsupervised or independent staff actually operating path may actually violate these more than may be realised. In the past I can recall coming across machine operators disconnect or bypassing safety circuits, working *inside* safety screens, and mechanically actuating equipment in unconventional ways.

My very cynical view of a union or group of staff resisting CCTV to monitor operators of plant or equipment is to suspect that they know there are bad practices that have become endemic - and are looking to cover the situation.

The whole question of CCTV being introduced generally is off topic. I think the unions would welcome it being applied to WCRC, given recent events.

 

[DarloRich]

It might.

But then it's not as if we don't see the likes of 66s or 67s get into trouble, or non WCRC 37s playing up.

and two of the new 68's cooked themselves and the 70's had a nasty habit of going on fire.

 

[edwin_m]

If the fire was from an avoidable cause then maintenance practices might be questioned. But the safety case issue will be whether the consequences were dealt with in a safe manner.

 

[QueensCurve]

It's worth bearing in mind that their last 47 fire was because of trackside wheel greasing units not functioning correctly.

I have been meaning to ask how they work.

Perhaps it is for another thread, but I don't understand:-

1. What propels the grease from the reservoir to the rail?
2. How the valve is used?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I have been meaning to ask how they work.

Perhaps it is for another thread, but I don't understand:-

1. What propels the grease from the reservoir to the rail?
2. How the valve is used?

There are diagrams for both types here. I won't waffle, the diagrams should say it all.

http://www.lbfoster.co.uk/friction-management-mechanical-lubricators.php
http://www.lbfoster.co.uk/friction-management-hydraulic-lubricators.php