WCRC banned from running trains on the mainline from 18th Feb 2016 now rescinded

[R4_GRN]

Orient express seems to manage to run very old coaches successfully, other extreme though they even have spare coaches including restaurant car in case of breakdowns, shows that proper maintenance prevents most breakdowns

 

[CosherB]

WCRC has shown on numerous occasions that it is a cavalier company and should be permanently banned from running on mainline railways in the UK.

So what do you know that the ORR doesn't? Or is this a general pop at WCRC? I'm no fan of WCRC, but the ORR has deemed them to be in a position to operate on the mainline at present.

 

[Carntyne]

@ All

There is a specific problem with rail traction, in that if a train/tram breaks down, it cannot usually be overtaken and almost invariably causes an obstruction, unlike (in general) a bus/lorry/car, although the latter can occur (as a schoolboy I was on a bus that managed to break down on turning right at a road junction and blocked most of the junction). This is one of the reasons for the closure of most tram systems in the UK in former times, a trend that continues elsewhere in the world, e.g. in the former USSR. As equipment ages, it is more likely to fail (not that this can't affect badly designed new equipment as well) and engines in particular are extremely complicated.

The effect of a train failure on a busy main line can be very disruptive, so it makes sense to restrict access by all steam and first-generation electric/diesel trains to mainline railways. I am not proposing a universal ban, but before exemptions are granted, there should be stringent tests before such equipment is allowed to be used where it could disrupt public services. WCRC has shown on numerous occasions that it is a cavalier company and should be permanently banned from running on mainline railways in the UK.

Seems a bit of a panic merchant response to a hot axle box. As has been said numerous times, it can and does happy to stock regardless of age.

 

[Agent_c]

@ All

There is a specific problem with rail traction, in that if a train/tram breaks down, it cannot usually be overtaken and almost invariably causes an obstruction, unlike (in general) a bus/lorry/car, although the latter can occur (as a schoolboy I was on a bus that managed to break down on turning right at a road junction and blocked most of the junction). This is one of the reasons for the closure of most tram systems in the UK in former times, a trend that continues elsewhere in the world, e.g. in the former USSR.

This is a railway enthusiasts forum. Please cut the condesention and start with the assumption we have actually seen a railway before and understand how it works.

As equipment ages, it is more likely to fail (not that this can't affect badly designed new equipment as well) and engines in particular are extremely complicated.

Whilst this is the general rule, that older equipment can be expected to have more wear and tear and thus be more prone to failure, this is a very gross oversimplification. Some engines, even 50-100 years sold are so well maintained that they are more reliable than so-called "modern" equipment.

Your statement in no way backs up your assertion that there should be a blanket ban after 50 years.

Again, please dispense with the condesention and presume we are familiar with what an engine is.
[

The effect of a train failure on a busy main line can be very disruptive, so it makes sense to restrict access by all steam and first-generation electric/diesel trains to mainline railways. I am not proposing a universal ban, but before exemptions are granted, there should be stringent tests before such equipment is allowed to be used where it could disrupt public services. WCRC has shown on numerous occasions that it is a cavalier company and should be permanently banned from running on mainline railways in the UK.

again, we know what a railway is. Going to go out on limb and presume there are others who understand better than you do.

You did propose a blanket ban. As for your attempt to wind it back, I an reasonably confident that no train is permitted on any line unless the authorities are satisfied that the vehicle meets the safety and reliability requirements of the main line; this applies whether the vehicle is 1 day old, or is the Planet; as such any time frame limit would be surplus to requirements.

As for WCRC, if the regulator wasn't satisfied something had improved, they'd still be banned.

 

[furnessvale]

Seems a bit of a panic merchant response to a hot axle box. As has been said numerous times, it can and does happy to stock regardless of age.

A hot box can seize which locks the wheel. The wheel can then break up causing a derailment. So a hot box is serious and needs detecting and stopping ASAP.

 

[najaB]

A hot box can seize which locks the wheel. The wheel can then break up causing a derailment. So a hot box is serious and needs detecting and stopping ASAP.

Nobody is disputing that, but it's a huge jump from 'we need to see if this is symptomatic of maintenance issue at WCRC' to 'all stock over 50 years old should be banned immediately'.

 

[Carntyne]

Nobody is disputing that, but it's a huge jump from 'we need to see if this is symptomatic of maintenance issue at WCRC' to 'all stock over 50 years old should be banned immediately'.

Thanks najaB. furnessvale I'm well aware of what a hot axle box can cause. Seems to me it was detected and stopped.

 

[krus_aragon]

Please cut the condesention and start with the assumption we have actually seen a railway...

I must have steam locos on the brain: I read the above as 'condensation'. :/

 

[adsteamfan]

I get really t’d off with the constant witch hunt against WCRC on these forums especially with comments on things that they have little understanding of. In regards to the hot box incident, this is not totally predictable – look up Weilbull Distribution on Wiki. Most maintenance outfits, WCRC included, use the predictive method of time/usage for replacement of items just like you change the cambelt on a car after a predicted number of miles. However, other items can and do fail at any point on the Weilbull curve. My wife’s VW 1.4 Polo had a rear wheel bearing collapse at 10k miles whereas my son’s VW 1.4 Golf has done 143k miles and frequently tows a 1500kg trailer and has had no problems.
Modern stock, such as the Pendolino, has condition based monitoring where sophisticated electronic systems are used to monitor the state of bearings etc which identify vibration, acoustic or temperature changes over time and then indicate to maintenance or operations personnel (usually) before a failure occurs so that they can be changed during the next scheduled maintenance. These systems are expensive and suit the fixed formation of EMU/DMU but would be more difficult to manage on heritage stock that is frequently split.
As with the broom example, coach bogies are refurbished and swapped – WCRC has lots of spares from scrapped stock (parcels etc) and all stock has specified inspection dates based on BR practice.

 

[DarloRich]

I get really t’d off with the constant witch hunt against WCRC on these forums especially with comments on things that they have little understanding of.

I dont. Just because they run trains that puffer buffers love doesn't exempt them from the railway safety regimen, rules and procedures. Several times now they have run foul of the ORR and NR and any incident going forward will lead to further speculation and comment on their behaviors.

In regards to the hot box incident, this is not totally predictable – look up Weilbull Distribution on Wiki. Most maintenance outfits, WCRC included, use the predictive method of time/usage for replacement of items just like you change the cambelt on a car after a predicted number of miles. However, other items can and do fail at any point on the Weilbull curve. My wife’s VW 1.4 Polo had a rear wheel bearing collapse at 10k miles whereas my son’s VW 1.4 Golf has done 143k miles and frequently tows a 1500kg trailer and has had no problems.
Modern stock, such as the Pendolino, has condition based monitoring where sophisticated electronic systems are used to monitor the state of bearings etc which identify vibration, acoustic or temperature changes over time and then indicate to maintenance or operations personnel (usually) before a failure occurs so that they can be changed during the next scheduled maintenance. These systems are expensive and suit the fixed formation of EMU/DMU but would be more difficult to manage on heritage stock that is frequently split.
As with the broom example, coach bogies are refurbished and swapped – WCRC has lots of spares from scrapped stock (parcels etc) and all stock has specified inspection dates based on BR practice.

none of that should be considered rocket science as bearings inspections are an every day part of safe operation. I am sure they were diligently carried out in this case. The issue is the recent history of WCRC and their interactions with the ORR. I am sure they have shown exacting records of all maintenance inspections to satisfy ORR they can comply with their operating license terms.

While a hot bearing can and does happen to any vehicle, those operated by WCRC will, for the time being, be under closer scrutiny than perhaps the issue deserves.

 

[QueensCurve]

All stock should be banned from running on railways/tramways providing a licensed public transport service if more than 50 years old, due to inherent unreliability. Exemptions could be made for specific lines (e.g. Grosmont-Whitby, the Blackpool tramway) after careful evaluation of the risks. However, such museum pieces should not be making long-distance journeys on main railway lines.

That seems a touch draconian particularly in light of the fact the HSTs will be that age in 10y time and possibly still in front line service.

The onus should be on those who run such stock to show that it is up to the job.

The railway should also develop ways of keeping other trains running to time when one train fails. Bidirectional signalling with high speed crossovers would help.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Have you really thought that idea through?

For a start the Statesman stock is Mark2D's I believe,built in the early 70's. And what about class 20's,37's and so on,are they "inherently unreliable"? I seem to recall it was brand new class 70's which recently had a propensity for bursting in to flames?

True that the Class 37s are presently not that reliable on the Cumbrian coast, but it that inevitably so?

 

[lincolnshire]

That seems a touch draconian particularly in light of the fact the HSTs will be that age in 10y time and possibly still in front line service.

The onus should be on those who run such stock to show that it is up to the job.

The railway should also develop ways of keeping other trains running to time when one train fails. Bidirectional signalling with high speed crossovers would help.

Who is going to pay for bi-directional signalling and high speed crossovers to be installed and then pay for the additional maintenance that it all requires ? the train operator who just sends his steam train out on odd days and odd weekends then or will it be back to the taxpayer who is shovelling more money into the railway than ever as against B.R. days of funding of the railways.

 

[Phil H]

Awaits a flaming for saying this and upsetting the purists but you know how you can now buy a Mini and a Fiat 500 that embraces latest technology with regard to brakes and suspension etc, yet still resembles the original but with the demands of modern day consumers met, could a fleet of modern coaches be built to look like older ones? Accessible, modern toilets and with power to run aircon, wifi etc etc and latest crash protection too in case of the worst happening.
Would certainly interest me instead of sitting on musty dralon and finding porno mags underneath (Severn Valley with my mrs).
Would need investment but surely investment is needed to attract younger audiences to generate revenues and make a safer more customer focussed environment.

 

[najaB]

Would need investment...

And there the idea dies...

 

[Agent_c]

Awaits a flaming for saying this and upsetting the purists but you know how you can now buy a Mini and a Fiat 500 that embraces latest technology with regard to brakes and suspension etc, yet still resembles the original but with the demands of modern day consumers met, could a fleet of modern coaches be built to look like older ones? Accessible, modern toilets and with power to run aircon, wifi etc etc and latest crash protection too in case of the worst happening.
Would certainly interest me instead of sitting on musty dralon and finding porno mags underneath (Severn Valley with my mrs).
Would need investment but surely investment is needed to attract younger audiences to generate revenues and make a safer more customer focussed environment.

Would you want to though? Part of the fun is it being "real" and shuddering around when it shouldn't.

It's supposed to be heritage, real history, not some Disney reimagining

 

[Baxenden Bank]

.....the ORR has deemed them to be in a position to operate on the mainline at present.

Not necessarily.

It can be the case that a regulatory authority has concerns about a company, their paper trail systems or actual operating practices, but cannot prove them to be dangerous until after a terrible, easily preventable 'accident' occurs.

If a company promises to behave in future, and makes all the right noises, then a regulator may have no option but to let them into a market, for fear of expensive legal action and large compensatory claims for denying someone access to that marketplace.

Prove that WCRC are safe - cannot be done. Prove that they are a danger - cannot be done. All you have are 'systems' and 'experience'.

In the case of WCRC, recent past performance would suggest the need for heavy touch (as opposed to light touch) regulation and monitoring. Sit on them, watch them like a hawk, if they commit a transgression, have them out of the marketplace (again). Eventually they will destroy their own business as customers (train hire or individual ticket buyers) will get fed up of being messed around and seek a more reliable operator. When customers start asking 'who is the train provider? is it that WCRC? OK I'm not going to buy a ticket then' things may change.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

All stock should be banned from running on railways/tramways providing a licensed public transport service if more than 50 years old, due to inherent unreliability. Exemptions could be made for specific lines (e.g. Grosmont-Whitby, the Blackpool tramway) after careful evaluation of the risks. However, such museum pieces should not be making long-distance journeys on main railway lines.

Yes, and all the staff too. People 50 years old and over are equally run-down and unreliable. However many annual medical check-ups they have a complete failure (heart attack, stroke, black-out) could occur at any time.

Think Glasgow bin wagon.:cry:

 

[QueensCurve]

Who is going to pay for bi-directional signalling and high speed crossovers to be installed and then pay for the additional maintenance that it all requires ? the train operator who just sends his steam train out on odd days and odd weekends then or will it be back to the taxpayer who is shovelling more money into the railway than ever as against B.R. days of funding of the railways.

I wasn't suggesting bidirectional signalling just for the benefit of the occasional steam railtour. Rather as a part of the operational robustness that the railway requires.

As regards funding, it is a false economy not to have it given the disruption that results when a train blocks one line regardless of who the operator is.

 

[furnessvale]

Yes, and all the staff too. People 50 years old and over are equally run-down and unreliable. However many annual medical check-ups they have a complete failure (heart attack, stroke, black-out) could occur at any time.

Think Glasgow bin wagon.:cry:

Yes, many parallels to WCRC. Deliberate actions by the person concerned which meant that, had the authorities known the true situation, he wouldn't have been allowed anywhere near a cab!

 

[2HAP]

Just because rolling stock is old does not make it bad. I mean look at the IOW they're running stock built in 1938.

In the IOM, they're running stock built in the 1890s on the MER and SMR.

 

[najaB]

It can be the case that a regulatory authority has concerns about a company, their paper trail systems or actual operating practices, but cannot prove them to be dangerous until after a terrible, easily preventable 'accident' occurs.

It's not for the regulator to prove the operator dangerous. It is for the operator to prove that they are safe. It's a condition of holding an operating approval.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

It's not for the regulator to prove the operator dangerous. It is for the operator to prove that they are safe. It's a condition of holding an operating approval.

I'm not disagreeing.

Proving that you are (potentially) safe is 'straightforward'. I don't say that flippantly because there is clearly cost, effort and plausibility involved. But, cut and paste the operating and safety case from someone else already approved and say that you will do all those things (i.e. employ the same consultants, remember to search and replace approved TOC A with new TOC Z), employ persons (or say that you will employ them) with the relevant experience and so on.

To deny someone access to a market (in this case the rail network) is a serious step. A gut feeling that company Z is 'not the right type for our railway' will not get you very far in court. Even a gut feeling based on recent experience will not stand up if company Z stands employs a clever advocate who promises that Z is a reformed company, they fell in with a bad crowd, had some short term issues, has learned from previous behaviour (i.e. the sort of guff you get in court everyday in mitigation - I don't know how the solicitors say it with a straight face, nor the bench accept it). Unless company Z stands up and says 'I think the regulator is wrong and I'm going to do it my way regardless' then you can get access to the rail network (as mentioned at a price). In the city, bankers can be banned from certain types of work, in business, people can be banned from being directors, or having a controlling influence over a business. Even in football, club owners have to pass a suitable persons test.

Is there a similar test for senior TOC management?

In my job certainly, in your job probably also, there are people who are generally thought of as being unfit / unsuitable / simply not cut out for the job. They have a poor reputation shall we say. Getting rid of them, especially if they persistently keep coming back for more, is rather difficult.

 

[Marklund]

Would you want to though? Part of the fun is it being "real" and shuddering around when it shouldn't.

It's supposed to be heritage, real history, not some Disney reimagining

That's fine for a heritage railway. The mainline isn't a train set though.

 

[NSEFAN]

That's fine for a heritage railway. The mainline isn't a train set though.

I can't see that anyone would want to make a fleet of heritage style vehicles, as you wouldn't be able to make them at all convincing given modern crash worthiness standards. We only really use Mk1 and Mk2 vehicles because they're plentiful in number and relatively simple and easy to maintain. Given that the charter market is gradually shifting towards luxury days out, we may in time see the Mk1 and Mk2 rakes replaced with Mk3, Mk4 or even new builds with very nice interiors.

 

[Marklund]

I can't see that anyone would want to make a fleet of heritage style vehicles, as you wouldn't be able to make them at all convincing given modern crash worthiness standards. We only really use Mk1 and Mk2 vehicles because they're plentiful in number and relatively simple and easy to maintain. Given that the charter market is gradually shifting towards luxury days out, we may in time see the Mk1 and Mk2 rakes replaced with Mk3, Mk4 or even new builds with very nice interiors.

That's the point I was making. They days of Mark 1s should be coming to an end.
Air Con Mark 2s can be formatted for the luxury, or Bums on Seats markets. That should be the future for the mainline.

Mark 1s with all their problems with crash worthiness can stay on the 25mph heritage railways.

 

[SPADTrap]

Another stop short and release at Bath Spa with a 1Z. Train then moved with all doors open and passengers boarding and alighting to the correct point.

 

[najaB]

Another stop short and release at Bath Spa with a 1Z. Train then moved with all doors open and passengers boarding and alighting to the correct point.

Who was Guarding? WCRC or the tour operator?

 

[Iskra]

Who was Guarding? WCRC or the tour operator?

WCRC. I'm on the tour. The driving is also quite jolty compared to GBRF hauled railtours. The toilet seat is also completely detached in my carriage. I will be avoiding tours involving WCRC from now on as they aren't filling me with confidence. The stop short was half way down the platform, not a short distance.

 

[BestWestern]

Another stop short and release at Bath Spa with a 1Z. Train then moved with all doors open and passengers boarding and alighting to the correct point.

What was the stock and traction? By 'release', I assume it was something with CDL?

 

[Iskra]

What was the stock and traction? By 'release', I assume it was something with CDL?

Not good :-/

2x47 with a mixed rake of Mk1 & 2 stock.

 

[christopher]

Couldn't make it up